FJRF011: Fast Starter Syndrome

[El Toro Joe]

My 06 had never done it either, until starting it in April, after sitting for 5 months.

 

[Cosmin]

My 06 had never done it either, until starting it in April, after sitting for 5 months.

I developed a habbit for mine in each spring (after 3-4 winter month with no start) to push-start it in order to save starter and battery since it was a rule that it will show the FSS. This year I found out how to by-pass it: I use the starter 3-4 times for half second (keep it pushed for shorter duration than necessary to start engine). I leave the starter on only after 3-4 intentionally failed start attempts and it starts ok

 

[MadMax1996]

So my 2014 wouldn't start this morning - super upset as this bike is pretty new (as of 4/1/15) and has only 4500 miles on it.

I found this thread and it sounds like this is the problem (initial blip, then nothing, then fast starter). I didn't have time to mess with it too much since I had to get to work, but hopefully the supposed fix of just holding the starter with the throttle wide open will do the trick.

The bike has been sitting for maybe 12 days - that's it. The gas level is low, but has at least a gallon left. The only thing I've done so the bike since it was last run was change the front tire and check the air filter. Some wiring had to be slightly shifted while removing the air filter covers, but nothing that would even come close to exerting any force that could cause damage.

The fact that this symptom seems to not have a known reason makes me a bit nervous - especially since I'm leaving for a bike trip on the 14th.

 

[HotRodZilla]

MMax, when you were working on it, did you ever start it "for a second" and shut it off? That is the most common cause. Some others that cycled the key a bunch of times, activating the fuel pump over and over, also have had this happen. Then sometimes it happens just by sitting, but usually for extended periods.

I used to fire mine up if I took it out of the garage and make the 3 second ride back inside. Bike never did that, until it did...don't know why. I'm betting that since you were working on it, you started it for some reason and then shut it down. Am I wrong?

Even if I am, this isn't a reliability problem. I don't know that it's ever happened to anyone on a trip. That's because on a trip, we start them, ride them for miles and then shut them off. Even if we do a short start, the bike is already warm, so doesn't flood, and...it won't happen every time for some reason.

So, make sure your battery has a full charge and hit that starter a few times at WFO, or near, until it starts. It may take a little bit. The last bike that did that in my garage wasn't mine, but took a very long time. I had to hook that one up to an extra car battery I have.

It'll start. Patience and technique...

 

[Ignacio]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that some of the cases or part of the phenomenon has to do with shoulders to various seasons (i.e. early Fall & early Spring) that may be related to big changes in ambient temperature along with changes to commercial fuel formulation volatility. A motorcycle that doesn't start in early Fall may because the fuel formulation isn't volatile enough to initially fire.

Said another way, did the one or two that had this happen have summer fuel in their tank and go and try to start their bike when it's a crisp fall morning? It may be a variable that contributes to this issue.

 

[MadMax1996]

MMax, when you were working on it, did you ever start it "for a second" and shut it off? That is the most common cause. Some others that cycled the key a bunch of times, activating the fuel pump over and over, also have had this happen. Then sometimes it happens just by sitting, but usually for extended periods.
I used to fire mine up if I took it out of the garage and make the 3 second ride back inside. Bike never did that, until it did...don't know why. I'm betting that since you were working on it, you started it for some reason and then shut it down. Am I wrong?

Even if I am, this isn't a reliability problem. I don't know that it's ever happened to anyone on a trip. That's because on a trip, we start them, ride them for miles and then shut them off. Even if we do a short start, the bike is already warm, so doesn't flood, and...it won't happen every time for some reason.

So, make sure your battery has a full charge and hit that starter a few times at WFO, or near, until it starts. It may take a little bit. The last bike that did that in my garage wasn't mine, but took a very long time. I had to hook that one up to an extra car battery I have.

It'll start. Patience and technique...

Thanks for the response.

I did roll it out of the garage to get the lawn mower this past Sunday, then when done I started it, let it idle for about 10 seconds, then slowly put it back in the garage (incline), then shut it down. I have done this nearly every week or 2 since I got the bike (after hitting it WITH the lawn mower while trying to sneak it by the first time

).

So yes, it was started for a short period, but the ignition/power wasn't cycled a bunch or anything.

I spent only a few minutes trying to start it but was afraid to drain the battery - which has (had?) a full charge. I did cycle the ignition a couple of times but after no sign of it starting I quickly gave up since I was running late this morning.

I'm hoping I can get 'er going without killing the battery - guess this is as good a time as any to get a battery tender and connect up a pig-tail to the battery. My previous bike had quick battery access under the seat but for the upcoming winter a tender might be a good idea for this new bike.

 

[mcatrophy]

...I did roll it out of the garage to get the lawn mower this past Sunday, then when done I started it, let it idle for about 10 seconds, then slowly put it back in the garage (incline), then shut it down. I have done this nearly every week or 2 since I got the bike (after hitting it WITH the lawn mower while trying to sneak it by the first time :weirdsmiley: )...

Yep, that'll do it.

As mentioned above, not every time, but usually just when it's most inconvenient.

Next time, run it until its idle speed has come down to normal.

 

[MadMax1996]

...I did roll it out of the garage to get the lawn mower this past Sunday, then when done I started it, let it idle for about 10 seconds, then slowly put it back in the garage (incline), then shut it down. I have done this nearly every week or 2 since I got the bike (after hitting it WITH the lawn mower while trying to sneak it by the first time

)...

Yep, that'll do it.

As mentioned above, not every time, but usually just when it's most inconvenient.

Next time, run it until its idle speed has come down to normal.

Ok cool - still seems weird but if I avoid this sort of behavior going forward hopefully it will never happen again. Now I just got to get this sucker started. The rest of my work day is going to drag just because I want to get home, get it started, and feel relieved.

 

[HotRodZilla]

If the battery gets low, just jump it to your car battery. Make sure you leave the car off. Just the battery alone will be enough to keep the MC battery going, and it won't hurt your electrical system.

That 10 second start is what did it.

 

[MadMax1996]

Well I'm happy and very relieved to report it started without too much fuss when I got home. It took about 5 seconds of cranking and opening the throttle to fire and it seems ok. I let it run until the fast idle dropped and took it around the block.

One less thing to worry about before my trip next week.

 

[08FJR4ME]

Well I wasn't as lucky as you were. My POS feejer is pissed at me. Had the battery on charge for 4 hours after I got home. Threw that sucker all the way up and kept trying the WOT a dozen times for several seconds at a time. NO GO Nata !!!!

I did notice the bike went to reserve 0.0 so maybe I got some bad gas? Next will be some Sea foam and some premium gas and another try. If that don't work I am pulling the plugs this weekend. Passing six cars with the XR650L aint the same as the feejer.

Dammik, Dammik, Dammik !

Dave

 

[jet mechanic]

Had it just happen to me at 65000 miles.

Summer fuel, bike sat for 3 weeks while I was moving.

Temperature was a steady 95 + degrees in mid July.

Would roll the bike out of the garage in the morning, but twice I had to start it to get it back in the garage at the end of the day.

At the end of the third week, went to move the bike to its new home and all the problems Ignacio listed happened.

Had to bring the bike to work and use a heavy duty battery charger and WOT to get it to start.

No problems since then but I also haven't ran it for less than a half hour at a time.

 

[Fred W]

Well I wasn't as lucky as you were. My POS feejer is pissed at me. Had the battery on charge for 4 hours after I got home. Threw that sucker all the way up and kept trying the WOT a dozen times for several seconds at a time. NO GO Nata !!!!
I did notice the bike went to reserve 0.0 so maybe I got some bad gas? Next will be some Sea foam and some premium gas and another try. If that don't work I am pulling the plugs this weekend. Passing six cars with the XR650L aint the same as the feejer.

Dammik, Dammik, Dammik !

Dave

Dave,

Are you cycling the key between attempts to start? If so... don't do that! That may re-initialize the cold start logic and cause the ECU to re-inject more fuel than if you just keep retrying to start without key switching.

Also, you should be safe in letting the starter run for 10-15 seconds per try with 10-15 second (or longer) wait times between them. Keep the throttle held wide open even between starting attempts. It should sputter at first but eventually run clean.

FWIW - This was a common situation for owners of fuel injected Mazda Rotary engines. I owned an RX-7 back in the day, and learned to never start the engine unless you were going to let it come up to temperature before shutting it down. But if you did, the recovery procedure was pretty much the same as this.

 

[08FJR4ME]

Well I wasn't as lucky as you were. My POS feejer is pissed at me. Had the battery on charge for 4 hours after I got home. Threw that sucker all the way up and kept trying the WOT a dozen times for several seconds at a time. NO GO Nata !!!!
I did notice the bike went to reserve 0.0 so maybe I got some bad gas? Next will be some Sea foam and some premium gas and another try. If that don't work I am pulling the plugs this weekend. Passing six cars with the XR650L aint the same as the feejer.

Dammik, Dammik, Dammik !

Dave

Dave,

Are you cycling the key between attempts to start? If so... don't do that! That may re-initialize the cold start logic and cause the ECU to re-inject more fuel than if you just keep retrying to start without key switching.

No, I turned the key once and it stayed on the whole time. So I did that correctly

Also, you should be safe in letting the starter run for 10-15 seconds per try with 10-15 second (or longer) wait times between them. Keep the throttle held wide open even between starting attempts. It should sputter at first but eventually run clean.

I did hold the throttle open the whole time even when not cranking. I probably only did 8 or 10 second burst but not longer than 10 seconds. I waited about the same time in between cycles.

FWIW - This was a common situation for owners of fuel injected Mazda Rotary engines. I owned an RX-7 back in the day, and learned to never start the engine unless you were going to let it come up to temperature before shutting it down. But if you did, the recovery procedure was pretty much the same as this.

I am wondering at this point if I got some bad gas so tonight after work I will pick up some new gas and sea foam. I believe I have some Techron in the cabinet also. I still haven't done a diagnostic so I guess that should be in order also. I am not getting any error messages though.

Edit: I have starting fluid but I don't want to blow a hole in the piston. Has anyone tried using starter fluid?

Dave

 

[HotRodZilla]

Dave, Don't use starter fluid. Your gas is probably fine, unless you hit empty. Seriously, I fought with Josh's AE for a LONG time before it finally started. I had to hook it to a spare battery. I also had to wait between cranks because the Shorai in the bike wasn't holding a charge, so I had to wait for the battery to come back up above 12v to try to start.

Once it finally started, it ran like a champ. It just took a bit.

 

[08FJR4ME]

Well I got the Feej running again today. I road around the block with it which is 5.1 miles long. Put it in the garage and parked it. Didn't try to start it again. We will find out Monday morning when I leave for work if she's going to behave properly for me. I can't divulge the method of madness I used to get it going but it worked. Let's just say a little birdy told me what to do via PM.

Dave

 

[dcarver]

Damn. Somehow how old skool carbs are looking better and better...

..another data point - KrZy8, with 198k has never exhibited FSS.. then again pretty much every time she fires she's going to run for at least 20 miles.

Ride more, rub less, boyz!

 

[08FJR4ME]

Operator error in this case. Can't blame the bike.

Dave

 

[saread]

Here's one more for the files. Rolled out of the garage a couple of weeks ago for the commute into the Emerald City and the mighty feej died at idle. Hmmmmmm, started her back up and headed out, died at the first intersection. I diligently read my FJRFORUM so it's pretty clear that my 7-1/2 year old battery is telling me something. Back to the garage we go and I get a new battery coming my way. Since I live in the hinterlands, at least as far as Partzilla is concerned, 2 day expedited shipping means 10 days. So, 2 weeks later, as I move my steed into position in the garage, I try to start it. The starter gives a feeble rrrrrrr and stops. My battery diagnosis seems sound. In goes a new OEM GS battery. Time to see if the beast will start. I get a strong run from the starter but not a sign of life from the engine. ****. I run the diagnostic routines and it's only showing a 14 code (diagnostic shows the sensor working, i'm wondering if this code isn't related to the missing PAIR system), it should be starting. But, I diligently read FJRFORUM. So I know that when I tried to start it with the weak battery, I likely flooded it. Time for the WOT trick. After a couple of tries, signs of life. Woo Hoo! Give it another shot, roll back to half throttle and we are in business. Let her run until the fans come on, lots of nasty rich smelling exhaust out the garage door too. Shut it off, and it starts right back up. Life is good.

The moral of the story is that if you read your FJRFORUM you can save yourself a buttwad of money by not having to go to your local dealer for a simple issue that started as not wanting to idle. Neither of these issues are likely to be obvious to your run of the mill FJR tech unless he diligently reads FJRFORUM for the collective wisdom of the FJR riding masses. The diagnostic time would have eaten a large hole in my wallet. Thanks folks.

 

[BobCo]

I just got through the FSS. Donal pointed me to this thread. Thanks to Donal, and the rest for documenting this and the cure.