FJRF011: Fast Starter Syndrome

[HotRodZilla]

They won't do it every time. I got away with it for a couple years. Then one day...That's what I get for tempting fate. Lol.

 

[gazelle]

Bought an '04 3 years ago with 53K miles. Just turned 174K last Sunday.Went to ride tonite, thumbed the starter, thought i heard it hit and let off the starter. Would not fire at all...starter seems fast. Tried WFO open for maybe 5-6 seconds one time. Let it sit 2.5 hours.....tried again..same fast starter.....did not try WFO. Reminds me of the old RX7's...you never started one just to pull it out of the garage to wash it !! Bike obviously does NOT sit. Bike has always run great...mountain riding every weekend ! Never happend before. I suspect it's the RX7 syndrome....VERY flooded...Any other suggestons/thoughts ???

 

[HotRodZilla]

Bought an '04 3 years ago with 53K miles. Just turned 174K last Sunday.Went to ride tonite, thumbed the starter, thought i heard it hit and let off the starter. Would not fire at all...starter seems fast. Tried WFO open for maybe 5-6 seconds one time. Let it sit 2.5 hours.....tried again..same fast starter.....did not try WFO. Reminds me of the old RX7's...you never started one just to pull it out of the garage to wash it !! Bike obviously does NOT sit. Bike has always run great...mountain riding every weekend ! Never happend before. I suspect it's the RX7 syndrome....VERY flooded...Any other suggestons/thoughts ???

Just keep trying. If you have the ability, you can pull the plugs to try to speed drying, or just keep hitting the starter until it fires. It will fire and it will happen, if even rarely. My '07 has only ever done it once. I thought I was immune 'cuz I used to fire it all the time to move it in and out of the garage and it never had a problem, until it did. It worried me at first, but it fired using the WFO techinque.

 

[supertankerm60a3]

I had the SAME thing happen to me yesterday. Crank crank FIREfire crankcrankcrankcrank. OH oh, fast starter sydrome. Try WOT, nothing, try 1/2OT nothing, try waiting about 2 minutes, the same crankcrankcrank.

Made me a half hour late to work. I cranked on it about 1/2 hour, (off and on). OTOH, I was really surprised at the storage capacity of my 2 year old Lithium battery. I put it on the center stand, OH NO!! all sorts of fluid running out!! Phew, just trapped wash water from the day before. I ended up lifting the tank and disconnecting the fuel pump. Cranked it about 5 more seconds, it fired and died, showing me it was NOW dry, I re-connected the pump and away she went. I was so mad I let the 'yotch idle while I buttoned up the battery side panel and seat. Steam everywhere, as the thermostat opened, apparently, there was alot of water still trapped in the radiator fins too.

Try it with the fuel pump (dark connector under tank with red and black wires) disconnected to dry it out.

Since I bought it in '10 in 73,000 miles, this is the 3rd time I have had FSS always happens after sitting two or more days.

 

[Cosmin]

Has anyone tried removing and inspecting spark plugs during fast starter syndrome? In case of leaking injectors root cause - a simple drying of the spark plugs would solve the problem. Of course, that is not a permanent solution but at least it would confirm the leaking injectors theory...

 

[Ignacio]

Has anyone tried removing and inspecting spark plugs during fast starter syndrome? In case of leaking injectors root cause - a simple drying of the spark plugs would solve the problem. Of course, that is not a permanent solution but at least it would confirm the leaking injectors theory...

While I have not pulled the plugs before during the condition..if it were a case of flooding....you'd smell large amounts of unburned fuel coming out of the exhaust pipe and I never have. I've had a variety of experience of flooded engines over the years via dirt bike and snowmobile....and this just doesn't seem like a case of too much fuel to me. I think the ring freeze theory is more likely.

 

[Cosmin]

Has anyone tried removing and inspecting spark plugs during fast starter syndrome? In case of leaking injectors root cause - a simple drying of the spark plugs would solve the problem. Of course, that is not a permanent solution but at least it would confirm the leaking injectors theory...

While I have not pulled the plugs before during the condition..if it were a case of flooding....you'd smell large amounts of unburned fuel coming out of the exhaust pipe and I never have. I've had a variety of experience of flooded engines over the years via dirt bike and snowmobile....and this just doesn't seem like a case of too much fuel to me. I think the ring freeze theory is more likely.

Ooops - you are right. In one case when it happened to me I checked the exhausts and no excessive gas smell. Though I never took the time to remove the spark-plugs when it occured. I simply let the bike roll on the valley in front of the yard where I keep it during winter and go for the "push-start" in second gear. Each spring after 1-3 months of winter storage it occurs on my bike and the "push-start" method always work, saving my battery and starter from huge effort of start after fast starter syndrome.

 

[supertankerm60a3]

In my experiences, there was the smell of gasoline.

 

[sath182]

I pulled the plugs and was met with wet plugs and a fuel fog on turn over (pump unplugged of course). I only had the one occurrence and didnt know it was a documented cronic quirk at the time. So that extra fuel might have been operator induced flooding from attempted starts.

 

[Cosmin]

I pulled the plugs and was met with wet plugs and a fuel fog on turn over (pump unplugged of course). I only had the one occurrence and didnt know it was a documented cronic quirk at the time. So that extra fuel might have been operator induced flooding from attempted starts.

In my case after bike storage longer than 3 weeks it always has the fast starter syndrome. After first cranking when I notice the symptoms I start the bike "push-start" method letting it roll to the valley and release the clutch in second. So I save all the cranking and additional flood. The next time it hapens i'll try to remove the spark plugs and see if they are realy wet only from the gas which leaked through the injectors during longer storage...

 

[Cosmin]

Discussing with an old friend about cars (problems/solutions etc) he mentioned very similar symtoms faced by his car since it was new: while turning the ignition key and cranking, if he releases the key from cranking position to ignition position a fraction of second before the engine starts it will not start anymore. The immediate next start atempt involves exactly the fast starter syndrome: abnormally fast starter rpm (as if the spark plugs are removed and there is not compression in the engine) without engine start. The fix he identified is either wait 5-10 minutes (with ignition off) or prolonged cranking (up to one minute) with throttle down (in his case I don't know if throttle down helps since the car has no throttle cable - it's 'drive by wire'). He also heard another owner of the same car model of similar issues without identifying a solution but they both suspect it's an ECU related issue.

I've also just remembered about a Ford Escort (european model 16 valves - 1.8 liter multipoint injection) back in 2001 or 2002 which had an electrical current leak within the fuses/relays box, causing sometimes a very low voltage to the injectors (it had ignition "permanent" +12V from fuses/relays box on the injectors and the 'opening' impuls sent by ECU was with -12V). When voltage was dropping (only at engine start sometimes, no matter cold or hot engine), also the cranking speed was increasing significantly without engine to start. But in this case a 'jump start' wire from the battery to the + connector of the injectors helped the engine immediatelly to start and it was solved permanently by changing the fuses/relays box.

So taking the above into account could it also on be the case for the FJR ECU to enter some sort of fault-mode causing the syndrome? Some owners mentioned flood but some mentioned no smell of gas (neither in my FJRs' case). As in the example with the Ford above, if the FJR ECU switches off the injectors for some (wrong) reason, perhaps the crankning speed increases since the PURE AIR which enters the engine is much more COMPRESSIBLE than the air/gas mixture?!?!?!

It's just a theory and just to take it out of my mind - the next time I remove the tank for maintenance etc I'll play a little by removing the electrical plugs from the injectors and crank just to have an idea if the starter speed is visible higher when the engine swallows only pure air, without gas...

Also regarding the theory mentioned in the first pages with excessive gas washing the oil on the cylinders, causing high rpm during cranking - I doubt this is the reason: I saw years ago some very flooded (car carburretor) engines but they never developeded higher rpm during cranking. So until I'll make the test with cranking the engine with injectors electrical plugs removed, I remain with my opinion that the issue is not related to flooding but, on the contrary, to no gas at all...

 

[Cosmin]

This weekend I managed to start the bike after 4 weeks in the garage; in previous cases after 2-max 3 weeks in the garage it was developing the fast starter syndrome.

My bike's behaviour in similar situations was that the first starter button push was cranking the engine at normal speed, the engine was "almost" starting for half a second and then immediatelly died (it even puts the front lights on) and all the next attempts involved fast starter speed with no success in starting. Trying to bypass this, this time I pushed the starter button just a little shorter (around one second maybe) than it usually takes to start a cold engine; with 10 seconds pause (for battery recovery etc) I repeated this (every time ignition off and on) for 4 times. At every short push on starter it was cranking at the normal speed. At the 5th attempt I let it crank a little longer (2 - max 3 seconds) and it started successfully! It's the first victory in my case against the fast starter syndrome; I'll try the same method in spring when I put the bike again "in production" and if the method works again I'm pretty sure the issue is related to some wrong setting in the ECU related to cold start etc. We'll see...

 

[TestPilot]

I just had this happen for the third time in 12 years. Cranks for a few seconds, almost catches, then fast starter and no start. In my case I have a definite smell of gas (petrol here in Aussie), and when it starts there is smoke for a short while - maybe 15 seconds. Not heavy smoke. My routine (after 3 times in 12 years one must develop a routine

) now is to wheel it out the garage, access the battery and hook up jumper leads to my car - it just makes me feel so much better when cranking for 30+ seconds to not put that load on the bike battery. Accessing the battery is way easier than drying off spark plugs.

 

[RossKean]

Just because the car battery can crank the engine for an extended period of time doesn't mean its a good idea. Most starters are not designed for extended load and will quickly heat up. Personally, I would rather keep the cranking limited to 15 seconds or less and if it doesn't start, allow a cool-down of 5 minutes or so before trying again.

 

[Cosmin]

This weekend I managed to start the bike after 4 weeks in the garage; in previous cases after 2-max 3 weeks in the garage it was developing the fast starter syndrome.My bike's behaviour in similar situations was that the first starter button push was cranking the engine at normal speed, the engine was "almost" starting for half a second and then immediatelly died (it even puts the front lights on) and all the next attempts involved fast starter speed with no success in starting. Trying to bypass this, this time I pushed the starter button just a little shorter (around one second maybe) than it usually takes to start a cold engine; with 10 seconds pause (for battery recovery etc) I repeated this (every time ignition off and on) for 4 times. At every short push on starter it was cranking at the normal speed. At the 5th attempt I let it crank a little longer (2 - max 3 seconds) and it started successfully!

It's the first victory in my case against the fast starter syndrome; I'll try the same method in spring when I put the bike again "in production" and if the method works again I'm pretty sure the issue is related to some wrong setting in the ECU related to cold start etc. We'll see...

I started successfully the bike today after almost 5 months of winter storage in the garage (last trip on 01.11.2014). In the last 4-5 years it was a known fact that in spring it will definitely develop the FSS: at first start attempt it almost starts (it even puts the front lights on as if the engine successfully started), then it dies and at next attempts it cranks fast with no firing sounds...

But today I used the above described method: I pushed the starter for just a little less than the normal start time (like half second or similar). Than ignition off for 10 seconds, another attempt of cranking for 1 second, again ignition off. I repeated this cycle 7-8 times and at the last one I let it crank the normal duration and it successfully started. No smoke at all, no WOT, no misfires.

I'm 99% sure now that, at least in my case, it has nothing to do with leaking injectors, If it was, it would have developed the FSS also in the above conditions. Most probably it's something in the cold start sequence of the ECU...

 

[MYTTOY]

Admin Note: Split this to it's own thread because it's a different tech question than the OP of this one.

Please follow and respond to it here:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/162622-starting-problems-after-sitting-idle-topic-split/

 

[audiowize]

Admin Note: Split this to it's own thread because it's a different tech question than the OP of this one.

Please follow and respond to it here:

https://www.fjrforum....le-topic-split/

 

[Queensland Ken]

Well it happened to my 2014 this morning ?

May be a first for a Gen 3 ??

The bike had been sitting for 1 1/2 weeks, normal.

The biked turned over faster than normal with a high pitched wine.

No smell of fuel from the exhaust

No error codes

We don't have winter fuels

I don't use any ethanol blends

Held the throttle wide open and it gradually kicked into life before the battery went flat.

 

[Just Krusen]

Nope, not the first Gen3.

 

[Bungie]

My 04 never did this once in a 100,000 miles.

It happened my '13 yesterday morning (and here I thought you were all nuts).

Scenario.

Bike sat in unheated garage for 2 weeks. No start during that time.

Thumbed the starter button, sounded normal for 1/2 a second, made a weird noise I've never heard before, perhaps a backfire through the throttle boddies?

Immediately the bike went into 'fast starter syndrome'.

Wished I paid more attention to this thread.

I smelled gas, so I cranked it WFO. Bike started on the 3rd attempt after clearing itself out.