FJRF011: Fast Starter Syndrome

[sportscout]

I was not able to access this forum but can now probably because I am a new member. My 2003 had the fast starter problem last week. I had not read this forum so took the bike to the local Yamaha dealer. He could not get it started after many tries even though by then I had found this discussion and showed it to him. The compression was very low in all cylinders. He was going to tear down the engine to find the problem. I did not want to pay for that so I had him deliver it back to my house. I put about two ml of oil in each cylinder and it started right up. This appears (again) to demonstrate that loss of oil in the cylinders causes the drop in compression.

 

[ionbeam]

...My 2003 had the fast starter problem last week...took the bike to the local Yamaha dealer. He could not get it started...The compression was very low in all cylinders...I put about two ml of oil in each cylinder and it started right up. This appears (again) to demonstrate that loss of oil in the cylinders causes the drop in compression.

A big -1 for your dealer.

It is possible for a rich fuel mix (like starting cold, then shutting the engine right off again) to wash oil off the cylinder walls. There have been a number of reported sticking rings. When my engine was torn down at <40k miles every piston had stuck ring(s). There have also been reports of carbon holding valves slightly open. Yamaha Ring Free seems to work real good; it is a very concentrated boat fuel additive, the normal bottle size is intended to treat an entire boat gas tank so dose accordingly. Ring Free will clear carbon and free stuck rings. Run a few treated tanks through the engine and check compression again. I'll state what you probably already know; when checking compression be sure the battery is fully charged and the throttle is wide open. Without a fully charged battery the slower cranking can cause lower compression readings and the open throttle lets the cylinder breathe deeply.

 

[xgnr]

You guys are AWESOME

The Fat Jandal (2006 76,000km) did the fast starter thing on me for the first time since I have owned (5 years). I di dthe quick startup and shut down about a month ago and its been in the garage since unridden (my naughty).

Smelled petrol when trying to start the bloody thing and after reading this thread tried the following:

1. Starter button in

2. Turn on Ignition

3. Wide Open Throttle reducing until she started coughing then Vroom

4. Smoke for Africa then cleared up - idling now while I write this.

Victory !!!

Now its time to ride

 

[grumpypoo]

Mine did this for awhile after I did a spark plug change. I thought to myself "da fuq how did I mess that up?"

Exact same symptoms and fix listed in this thread.

Guess what the problem was? Loose electrical connection on the fuel pump. It's amazing it still ran, but apparently I didn't get it snug in there.

Just something for everyone to ponder.

 

[Intech]

Mine did this for awhile after I did a spark plug change. I thought to myself "da fuq how did I mess that up?"
Exact same symptoms and fix listed in this thread.

Guess what the problem was? Loose electrical connection on the fuel pump. It's amazing it still ran, but apparently I didn't get it snug in there.

Just something for everyone to ponder.

I could see where the loose fuel pump connection could cause the bike not to fire, but if it was doing the fast starter thing that is caused by something different.

 

[BkerChuck]

Can we get an icon for FSS?

Mine just did it this morning for the first time ever. 2007 with 52k miles. Last ridden about 3 weeks ago to work and then oil and filter change when I got home. Brief ride after oil change then untouched for about 3 weeks. Combination of our weather going to crap and me getting sick. Forecast today looked promising so I gear up, put my lunch in the saddlebag and.....no joy. Starter spun normally for about a half second or so then sounded like it just free wheeled and no start. Unfortunately I was short on time and it's going to have to wait until I get home this afternoon for further efforts at starting.

 

[Intech]

Can we get an icon for FSS?
Mine just did it this morning for the first time ever. 2007 with 52k miles. Last ridden about 3 weeks ago to work and then oil and filter change when I got home. Brief ride after oil change then untouched for about 3 weeks. Combination of our weather going to crap and me getting sick. Forecast today looked promising so I gear up, put my lunch in the saddlebag and.....no joy. Starter spun normally for about a half second or so then sounded like it just free wheeled and no start. Unfortunately I was short on time and it's going to have to wait until I get home this afternoon for further efforts at starting.

Hope you put it on the charger. You are going to need all the juice you can get to get her going.

 

[BkerChuck]

That was the second thing that set me off this morning! Can't find one of my tender leads I use. I know I put the damn thing somewhere where I wouldn't lose it....

 

[mcatrophy]

That was the second thing that set me off this morning! Can't find one of my tender leads I use. I know I put the damn thing somewhere where I wouldn't lose it....

If you have a girlfriend/wife/partner, ask her/him. She/he will walk into the garage, pick it up, and hand it to you with a sneering look on her/his face.

DAMHIK

 

[ionbeam]

As Intech says, you really need a fully charged battery when working through a fast start issue. You will probably have to try several rounds of 5 second cranking intervals. You shouldn't just press the starter and hold it on, this will over heat the starter. Give a few minutes between cranking to let things cool.

[thread drift]

Bluetooth object finder, simply clip it on:

Works with a phone app. There are a lot of 'finders' on the market. Can be set so that if you walk away more than 100' (or some such distance) it will beep and alert you that your forgot your ?????? Or, you ping it with the phone and it beeps from the hidden location. We have one on our pet because he can hide inside the house and be unfindable. We got a package of 5 for just a little more than the cost of 1.

My battery tender adapter with the clips went MIA a couple of weeks ago. I gave up looking for it, then while looking for my GPS bracket hardware it miraculously appeared. I still haven't found the GPS bracket part, I guess I need to go look for something else...

[/thread drift]

 

[BkerChuck]

Got her started! Cranked it for about 15 seconds then paused, repeated and around the third time it caught. Lots of white smoke and ran rough for a couple minutes then smoothed out. Found tender lead in wife's tank bag and must admit I now remember putting it there. Hope to not deal with this again!

 

[El Toro Joe]

I had the problem once...and never again.

 

[DiggerDr.]

OK, I have a question. When a fuel injected vehicle is started they run at high idle until warming up some. How does the FJR control idle speed? A idle air bypass where the computer allows fuel injectors to open further to make up for the bypass air? Anyway, can the fact that the injectors are spraying more fuel when cold allow it to flood easier with a bad or sticking injector not closing completely if shut off at that point? Thus flooding the engine. I start mine periodically all winter and ride it if I get a chance. Have not had this happen. Yet.

Most diesels, (there are exceptions) do not throttle the air, they just add more fuel. Automotive gasoline engines generally add air independent of the butterfly valves and the computer enriches the fuel to the optimum point by opening injectors further. Thus increasing idle speed. I assume the FJR fuel injection works in this manner. Injectors should close regardless when shut off but it is curious why this is more likely to happen to an engine that is not thoroughly warmed up before being turned off.

How exactly is the high idle speed controlled?

 

[DiggerDr.]

I also can't help but wonder if the injectors are spraying not enough fuel to start and just helping the starter turn it over. Hmmmm...several thoughts in my mind. I have seen more than one injected vehicle start by just bumping the starter repeatedly when flooded and no other method works. Ya damn sure have to be ready with the throttle though if it does fire.

 

[ionbeam]

....How exactly is the high idle speed controlled?

On the back side of the fuel rail there is a 'wax motor' connected to the butterfly plates that supply air flow in conjunction with the ECU during cold run FI mapping. The wax motor has a coolant passage passing through it which heats the wax motor and shuts off the cold run offset.

 

[DiggerDr.]

What would happen if it was going bad and did not return to the "cold" position when shut off? And it kept the offset closed? Too much fuel from the injectors and not enough air?

 

[DiggerDr.]

I think I will always let mine get 3 or 4 bars before shutting off. Recharge battery for a few and heat up the wax motor completely before shutting off. If I have this problem I will know it is something different. Maybe, LOL. Sure would be nice to figure this one out. I like a good challenge at times. Unless I am 100 miles from home.

 

[HotRodZilla]

I think I will always let mine get 3 or 4 bars before shutting off. Recharge battery for a few and heat up the wax motor completely before shutting off. If I have this problem I will know it is something different. Maybe, LOL. Sure would be nice to figure this one out. I like a good challenge at times. Unless I am 100 miles from home.

Stop starting it if you're not going to ride it. That is so bad for an engine. Obviously, barring the extremes, letting it sit is better than starting it for a few minutes and then shutting it down. If you know you aren't going to ride it much, put stabilizer in the fuel, ride a few miles and put it away. 6 months later, it will be just fine.

On the days you can ride, ride. Bring it up to temp, and let it pull under load. Idling it and revving it does nothing good!

 

[DiggerDr.]

Once in a while it needs moved out of the way, so if I do start it, I am gonna let it warm up............and I never rev anything not under load. I do not have this problem. It is just that being a mechanic since 1978 this problem makes me curious.

 

[HotRodZilla]

^Best we can figure, the fast idle is feeding a lot of fuel when the bike gets turned on and off before full warm-up. The bike shuts off and extra fuel is trapped in the cylinders. At the next start up, a new batch of fuel gets pushed, so it floods the bike. It washes the cylinder walls, so there is poor compression until oil comes back and a WFO start opens the throttle enough that there is enough air to let the fuel fire.

They don't do it all the time. For about 5 years, I would cold start my bike, move it, and then shut it off. Never had this problem, until one day, I did. Since then, I've avoided cold starts and shut downs, and it hasn't happened again.

It's weird as Hell, and the above is what I THINK is a happening. If you read through this post, a few guys have had it happen under varying circumstances.