Funky Clacky noise from clutch?

[kaitsdad]

Hal,
14.29 volts off the stator at cold idle (1200rpm) with all accessories off and low beam on my 2006 with 10K miles. Same voltage at 1500 rpm.

Barry

Thanks, Barry.

Next question to the forum -

Has anyone out there disconnected injectors to place a load on the engine for a 4K synch? Or, change the plugs, leaving one or two wires not completely attached - And did it idle like this?

(I'm going down a path here - bear with me.....)

 

[escapefjrtist]

Next question to the forum -
Has anyone out there disconnected injectors to place a load on the engine for a 4K synch? Or, change the plugs, leaving one or two wires not completely attached - And did it idle like this?

(I'm going down a path here - bear with me.....)

Hal, do a search for posts relating to unauthorized TBS and look for comments by jestal. IIRC this is the method he uses.

--G

 

[dcarver]

UhOh, KD is thinking he has cylinders not firing or firing unequally causing the 'out of balance' reciprocating parts sound? If so, it would be interesting to put an o'scope on the coil primaries then secondaries to observe the resultant patterns. One intermittent cylinder (ignition, compression, valve) problem *could* make sounds like on the audio but then again how do you explain the clutch engaged/disengaged phenomenon?... and the bike runs good/strong at higher rpms? Come on KD, whatcha thinking big fella?

 

[jestal]

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[kaitsdad]

I was thinking along the same lines..... It sounds nasty but it could just be an engine miss at idle/low RPM that is rattling the clutch plates. It does get noisier and shake when injectors are disconnected but I'm on the fence as to whether I remember it sounding quite that noisy. I would definitely look for something that could be causing a miss at idle before panicing that the clutch was dying, though.

jestal,

That's exactly where I was going -

Here's the first place I'm looking tomorrow morning once I remove the plastic on the right side of the bike:

That's the back of the upgraded horn - and the threaded mount stud in the horn is wedged between what I think are the coil wires.

If it has penetrated and shorted out into one of the wires, it could duplicate the conditions I'm encountering. I am really hoping that's it.

I'll let you all know tomorrow.

 

[dcarver]

I was thinking along the same lines..... It sounds nasty but it could just be an engine miss at idle/low RPM that is rattling the clutch plates. It does get noisier and shake when injectors are disconnected but I'm on the fence as to whether I remember it sounding quite that noisy. I would definitely look for something that could be causing a miss at idle before panicing that the clutch was dying, though.

Jestal, how would that explain that the noise diminishes/disappears when the clutch is dis-engaged? If a cylinder, or two, were dropping out, wouldn't it exhibit the same 'noise' with clutch engaged/dis-engaged? Unless there is *just enough drag* via the clutch to amplify the missing cylinders? Wait, that doesn't make any sense does it? Or does it? Is there more or less 'drag' or 'load' on the crankshaft with clutch engaged or disengaged? If it were a slight mis-firing of cylinders, perhaps a *slight* more drag on the crank could result in differing sound levels. I know I was very surprised at how horrible mine sounded when I had recent fuel problem in Beatty Nevada...It really is fun troubleshooting someone ELSES problem

 

[kaitsdad]

I was thinking along the same lines..... It sounds nasty but it could just be an engine miss at idle/low RPM that is rattling the clutch plates. It does get noisier and shake when injectors are disconnected but I'm on the fence as to whether I remember it sounding quite that noisy. I would definitely look for something that could be causing a miss at idle before panicing that the clutch was dying, though.

Jestal, how would that explain that the noise diminishes/disappears when the clutch is dis-engaged? If a cylinder, or two, were dropping out, wouldn't it exhibit the same 'noise' with clutch engaged/dis-engaged? Unless there is *just enough drag* via the clutch to amplify the missing cylinders? Wait, that doesn't make any sense does it? Or does it? Is there more or less 'drag' or 'load' on the crankshaft with clutch engaged or disengaged? If it were a slight mis-firing of cylinders, perhaps a *slight* more drag on the crank could result in differing sound levels. I know I was very surprised at how horrible mine sounded when I had recent fuel problem in Beatty Nevada...It really is fun troubleshooting someone ELSES problem

Perhaps engage/release tightens up the plates, removing the rattle.

I really hope that's it. I just do not want to pull this sucker apart 4 weeks prior to a B2B Insanity.

 

[dcarver]

I was thinking along the same lines..... It sounds nasty but it could just be an engine miss at idle/low RPM that is rattling the clutch plates. It does get noisier and shake when injectors are disconnected but I'm on the fence as to whether I remember it sounding quite that noisy. I would definitely look for something that could be causing a miss at idle before panicing that the clutch was dying, though.

Jestal, how would that explain that the noise diminishes/disappears when the clutch is dis-engaged? If a cylinder, or two, were dropping out, wouldn't it exhibit the same 'noise' with clutch engaged/dis-engaged? Unless there is *just enough drag* via the clutch to amplify the missing cylinders? Wait, that doesn't make any sense does it? Or does it? Is there more or less 'drag' or 'load' on the crankshaft with clutch engaged or disengaged? If it were a slight mis-firing of cylinders, perhaps a *slight* more drag on the crank could result in differing sound levels. I know I was very surprised at how horrible mine sounded when I had recent fuel problem in Beatty Nevada...It really is fun troubleshooting someone ELSES problem

Perhaps engage/release tightens up the plates, removing the rattle.

I really hope that's it. I just do not want to pull this sucker apart 4 weeks prior to a B2B Insanity.

Hal, noise still goes away when clutch is disengaged? e.g. in gear, clutch lever in?

and reappears when engaged? clutch lever out?

 

[kaitsdad]

I was thinking along the same lines..... It sounds nasty but it could just be an engine miss at idle/low RPM that is rattling the clutch plates. It does get noisier and shake when injectors are disconnected but I'm on the fence as to whether I remember it sounding quite that noisy. I would definitely look for something that could be causing a miss at idle before panicing that the clutch was dying, though.

Jestal, how would that explain that the noise diminishes/disappears when the clutch is dis-engaged? If a cylinder, or two, were dropping out, wouldn't it exhibit the same 'noise' with clutch engaged/dis-engaged? Unless there is *just enough drag* via the clutch to amplify the missing cylinders? Wait, that doesn't make any sense does it? Or does it? Is there more or less 'drag' or 'load' on the crankshaft with clutch engaged or disengaged? If it were a slight mis-firing of cylinders, perhaps a *slight* more drag on the crank could result in differing sound levels. I know I was very surprised at how horrible mine sounded when I had recent fuel problem in Beatty Nevada...It really is fun troubleshooting someone ELSES problem

Perhaps engage/release tightens up the plates, removing the rattle.

I really hope that's it. I just do not want to pull this sucker apart 4 weeks prior to a B2B Insanity.

Hal, noise still goes away when clutch is disengaged? e.g. in gear, clutch lever in?

and reappears when engaged? clutch lever out?

The noise differential happens only at idle. Once up on the revs, the noise abates. You can hear it in the recording - at the end, I rev up to about 2k - and it smooths out. This could be due to the voltage being delivered by the coils increasing at speed - and the short no longer matters.

Did I mention the really horrible EMI noise on all of my audio?

I'm hoping that the noise is simply rattling clutch plates from two dead cylinders being dragged around at idle. I'll know tomorrow, once I tweak that horn away from the wire and start it up.

Hell. I can do that right now, can't I!.

I'll post my findings in about 10 minutes.

 

[Barabus]

Smitty might know the answer to this question. I would shoot a PM that way. He might know the answer straight away.

 

[dcarver]

So you think that perhaps the primary side of one coil (presumably providing secodary spark to two cylinders) is partially shorting due to a horn install? Or that somehow a farkle is dropping the coil primary voltage below the threshold to throw a good secondary, EMF inducing spark? Interesting.

Guess I'll be up for another 10 minutes..

Dude - wish we lived closer. This would be really fun to troubleshoot in person.

Looks like you'll have to move up here..

.....cause aint no way I'm going south..

 

[kaitsdad]

Well, I reached down there and bent the horn away from the coil wires - but I don't know if they're still touching or not.

The sound now appears as a miss - or dead spot. I may still have wire to metal contact some where.

So - tomorrow morning once I'm done with my Honeydo's, I'll pull that plastic, and see what's there.

Ain't it great that we're all up on a Friday night troubleshooting a bike remotely? (at least you guys are )

And I just installed my Carbon Fibre case protector about 6 weeks ago. Timing is everything.

Barry, I'll PM smitty with the post url.

I'm going to bed. G'nite, y'all !

And thanks.

 

[dcarver]

Well, I reached down there and bent the horn away from the coil wires - but I don't know if they're still touching or not. The sound now appears as a miss - or dead spot. I may still have wire to metal contact some where.

So - tomorrow morning once I'm done with my Honeydo's, I'll pull that plastic, and see what's there.

Ain't it great that we're all up on a Friday night troubleshooting a bike remotely? (at least you guys are )

And I just installed my Carbon Fibre case protector about 6 weeks ago. Timing is everything.

Barry, I'll PM smitty with the post url.

I'm going to bed. G'nite, y'all !

And thanks.

So you think perhaps the primary side is going partially to ground? Fully to ground? Can't believe your going to bed with WONKY feeling ill! The SHAME of it all!

Good night, Hal-Boy!

 

[beeroux]

Ya'll is SCARIN' me.

<G>

Unlike you sleepy-toes, I'll be up all night thinking of ways to make Hal's problem worse.

What are friends for????

GZ

 

[kaitsdad]

Update -

It ain't the coil wires.

So - checked over everything. Plastic off. tank off. no bare conductors, etc.

hooked up my carbtune -

#1 - 270

#2 - 160

#3 - 260

#4 - 279

There's an occaisional 'chuff' like a vacuum leak. Jeannette mentioned an intermittant 'pop' or backfire during our ride in DV.

Difference is static over engine speed. 3K rpm, #2 still exceptionally low.

Unable to synch using the factory air bypass screws. I did get it closer - and the clutch noise went away.

Currently researching the butterfly adjustments - where the heck are those adjustment screws?

And the question is, why?

wish me luck.

 

[dcarver]

Update -
It ain't the coil wires.

So - checked over everything. Plastic off. tank off. no bare conductors, etc.

hooked up my carbtune -

#1 - 270

#2 - 160

#3 - 260

#4 - 279

There's an occaisional 'chuff' like a vacuum leak. Jeannette mentioned an intermittant 'pop' or backfire during our ride in DV.

Difference is static over engine speed. 3K rpm, #2 still exceptionally low.

Unable to synch using the factory air bypass screws. I did get it closer - and the clutch noise went away.

Currently researching the butterfly adjustments - where the heck are those adjustment screws?

And the question is, why?

wish me luck.

Hey Hal, good luck with Bonky-Wonky.

..and whey did #2 drop so low?

..and why would having one low, underperforming cylinder cause clutch noise? Especially clutch noise that went away with engagement/dis-engagement?

Baffling.

Keep us posted.

 

[dcarver]

3 hours later and no post KaitsDad?

 

[jestal]

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[kaitsdad]

The clutch noise comes and goes with clutch engagement because the clutch plates sit in a basket with every other plate being splined to the outer basket and the rest splined to the inner basket. There is a little play in the "splines" so the entire clutch pack can "rattle" in the splines when unloaded in neutral and a cylinder misfires. When you remove the spring pressure on the plates by pulling in the clutch it allows each individual plate to misalign slightly (since they are not being pressed together) and the varied contact of each spline pretty much eliminates the rattle noise.
If I understand correctly the intake vaccuum changed suddenly on number 2...??? I don't think I would be chasing it with the idle bypass screws or other means. Not likely that the throttle plate angle or idle bypass sync suddenly changed. Something else likely changed and you are not addressing the real problem by re-syncing the throttle bodies just trying to compensate for something else that is wrong.

I would advise pulling the plugs for a look first thing. Maybe it is a plug that cracked or fouled or ???? and/or you may be able to get some clue from the plug condition/appearance when they are removed. It would also be a good idea to do a quick compression check when the plugs are out to confirm that all cylinders have the same compression (to avoid having to do this later when nothing else is proving to be the problem)....or not.

Since only one cylinder seems to have changed per the vacuum comparisons I would tend to look for plug or injector issues. If you pull the plugs and they look fine then it may be an injector that died or encountered some debris. At that point the easiest way to diagnose an injector is to swap the injector from the offending cylinder into a "good" cylinder and see if the miss goes with the injector. Then replace that injector.

Thanks Jestal.

Having just installed the iridiums 3.5K ago, I didn't pull them to check. Once I've confirmed the plug condition, I'll look at the injectors.

 

[jestal]

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