Gen II ground spider discussion (bench racing)

[Scrib]

I ordered up Art's kit, which is well made thanks Art, even though I see no spider issues. Like others I view this as a potential hazard and a relatively cheap and easy fix.

 

[LAF]

I ordered up Art's kit, which is well made thanks Art, even though I see no spider issues. Like others I view this as a potential hazard and a relatively cheap and easy fix.

+1

Do not officially own the bike yet (tomorrow) but the harness is ordered. After seeing the calculations of the reduced numbers on the spiders it is a no brainer.

Never would I ignore a wiring issue knowing what kind of electronics I run. And while I am sure dealers will tell you it is OK or they all do that....... Documented History on this forum confirm there are bikes with issues. So just fix it and move on. Yes it galls my butt I have to do it but hell a few bucks, a few plugs, dielectric grease, and some Tupperware removal is worth the piece of mind. And I love supporting hobbyist who see a problem and resolve it and then share that with other hobbyist. How cool is that?

Besides, need to install the FuzeBlock and start laying electric for Zumo, Moto Lights, and Doran TPM.

Man I love new toys.............

 

[MartyA]

I think this is the right place for this, let me know if not...

I am giving the dealer a little slack here because he is the new owner of a formerly ripoff dealership, and they have their 1st FJR in the shop. I explained the S4 issue and showed them where the spider was and that it shorted. They put it in the schedule earlier this week and today they looked at it. I just called and they said "It is showing the TPS error. Nothing is showing burnt." I know the S4 is shorted, I pulled that spider and got the same weird lights and blinking gas gauge as before I pulled the spider. Guess I'll have to go up there tomorrow and show them....

If I was a complete virgin and had never seen or experienced a shorted S4, could it show as a TPS error code?

 

[bramfrank]

It is all well and good that there are homebrew solutions for the 'Spider' problem, but since the majority of FJR owners do not frequent this web site and, more to the point that none of us has bought a machine that we intended to redesign to deal with potentially fatal design flaws, you still need to file your concerns and complaints with the the NHTSA and Transport Canada.

Spending your Farkle cash to fix the harness may sit well with you, but I'd prefer to use it for an actual accessory.

 

[road runner]

Marty

I'm not sure about the TPS code, but I don't think so. All the sensor grounds go threw the S2 & S5 spiders.

You may want to check the S6 spider also. This is the one that everything in the front goes threw, then goes to the S4 for ground. The S6 is located in the area under the glove box. you need to take the left lower fairing off to get at it.

Another idea.

If the only pin in the spider that got burnt is the 1 that goes to ground, then give the rest of the pins in the spider ground and see if all is working after. You can do this by installing a jumper wire from battery neg term to the spider in question or by installing the harnesses I sent you. They not only ground the fan and light, but they also run the factory wire to ground, which goes back to the spiders. I'm not saying that is all you need to do, but it may help get you going, or diag the issue.

Art

 

[MartyA]

I stopped in at the dealer this morning, on my way to work. I had a 5' piece of 10-12 gage wire. The mechanic was there, I proposed I could get the bike to start in less than 30 seconds. The other mechanic, the one that was working on my bike and knew electrical stuff, wasn't there at that moment. Walking back to the shop to the bike, which was about 50% nekkid, we discussed them not finding anything burnt, no missing circuit / connection, and so on. Despite my best efforts at describing what happens, where it happens, and showing them road runner's photos the other day, they completely missed the S4 spider. I reached under the frame, popped the rubber cup off and showed them the little burn mark. Then I popped the spider off, pulled a piece of wire out of my pocket, shoved one end into the little hole in the middle of the spider, wrapped the other end around a screw that was loose in the frame, shoved the spider back in place, turned the ignition key and started the bike.

You rarely see someone actually drop their jaw. This guy's did. He stood there dumbfounded. I suspect he and the other mechanic spend several hours this morning worrying over this bike, not knowing why it wouldn't start. The other mechanic showed up and the first mechanic said watch this; he turned the key and hit the starter and the bike fired right up. He was quicker, though, nodding knowingly like an old sage... Even though I know he didn't have a clue either until that moment.

I pointed to the S4 spider and said "Now you know where the problem is and what to fix. Fortunately it is attached to the entire wiring loom, so get on the phone with Yamaha and get me back on the road. "

I left the rz350 charts with them, showing the 40 amps and how the different spiders are connected. I think the light is going on...

 

[road runner]

Marty

That is good news. Hopefully you will be on the road soon.

 

[RadioHowie]

Marty
That is good news. Hopefully you will be on the road soon.

"Soon" being a relative term. Harnesses are back-ordered and expected to ship mid to late November.......

.....2019.

 

[road runner]

If that's the case then install the T-Harnesses and ride it until the factory harness comes in.

 

[Scrib]

Makes me thankful I bit the bullet and will be installing road runner's harness before the spider bites me. Dealing with the dealer can be a headache at times for sure.

 

[RZ350]

/snip/I left the rz350 charts with them, showing the 40 amps and how the different spiders are connected. I think the light is going on...

MartyA (and other readers),

Just remember 40 amps is with fans, horns, and 4-ways all on at the same time. And pulling a full 3 amps through the accy socket. Although it is possible scenario, it will rarely, if ever, be seen.

30+ amps is likely, however, if you live in a warm climate where the fans run. And that's still a lot for a 16ga wire.

 

[LAF]

It is all well and good that there are homebrew solutions for the 'Spider' problem, but since the majority of FJR owners do not frequent this web site and, more to the point that none of us has bought a machine that we intended to redesign to deal with potentially fatal design flaws, you still need to file your concerns and complaints with the the NHTSA and Transport Canada.
Spending your Farkle cash to fix the harness may sit well with you, but I'd prefer to use it for an actual accessory.

While spending Farkle money on preventative/Manufacturer fixes is not ideal to me at all, it sure beats having to deal with either scenario. The dealer or failure.

In the greater scheme of things spending money on a sure fix to not have to worry about it is a Farkel in my mind. I mean the bike is in its 9th year and this has not been addressed, and to me having someone rip my entire wiring harness out and install another of the same quality is just a lesson in futility, what did you gain?

Do I agree with Yamaha not addressing it? Absolutely NOT. Am I going to ignore it or piss and moan about it? NOPE, just gonna "fix" it and ride.

I will fill out the form on the link you listed but also a lesson in futility. Remember I rode a BMW and all the Final Drive failures were reported and that never prompted even a admission from BMW that they even had a problem.

No disrespect intended and I see your point for sure, it makes us sheep to allow a manufacturer to continue to make something that is a known problem yet is ignored.

No I do not drink any kool aid but 55 bucks or whatever, the chance to hit every connection with dielectric, and I need to go in anyway to lay electric for GPS, TPM, Moto-Light, PC V, and install a FuzeBlock makes it a non issue for me.

 

[Scrib]

I agree with all that has been said and Yamaha should step up here, but do we all recall the Pinto? Fugly? Sure? Potentially deadly in a rear-ender? You betcha. The cost benefit anaylsis here for Yamaha really does not add up to them issuing a model- and year-wide recall on the spider issue (at least not at this time.) Reporting is good since it creates the necessary trail, but the number of reports and the lack of any "real" numbers related to serious injury or death just has not created that tipping point yet for the Feds or Yamaha.

I fixed it myself to have piece of mind rather than waiting on a government agency to do the right thing (never going to happen) or Yamaha to step in (unlikely to happen IMO). So as usual when it comes to issues where I have a choice whether to depend on someone else or do it myself - I did it myself. I will have piece of mind and sure I'm out $55, but it's just another farkle in a long line of farkles to keep my new toy safe and happy. In the end, I am safe® and happy and to me that is worth the money.

 

[RZ350]

Some of you are probably wondering, so here’s my estimation of what Brodie’s ground harness solution has on the current flows. If I understand it properly, his solution connects to all spiders (except S2 and S5) and basically provides a second ground path for each one. My calcalations, of course, are very simplistic and should only be used only as a guideline - in real life, its unlikely the current will split 50/50 down the two possible paths.

Changes made to “Rev 04” calc sheet (see post #15):

- Divided the total current flowing through S1, S3, S4, S6, S7 and S8 by 2 (extra ground wire shares load on spider grounding wire).

ESTIMATED RESULTS:

Peak current (everything powered up), total new amperage on the individual spiders:

S1= 2.93

S3= 2.69

S4= 9.34

S6= 6.59

S7= 5.44

S8= 3.93

Here’s the old “maximum" amperage values again for reference:

S1= 5.85

S3= 8.30

S4= 40.25

S6= 22.55

S7= 14.80

S8= 7.85

Again, all spiders are seeing less than 10 amps. It’s definitely another great solution to Yamaha’s electrical problem.

Thanks to Brodie and road runner for providing the hardware to keep all of us on the road!

 

[Scrib]

HEY RZ! Your numbers are why I went with Road Runner's setup versus the entire spider approach. I like the simplicity of the design and ease of install versus having to chase down all those pesky spider bots. Here in No Cal in stop and go my fans come on quite a bit and this just eases my mind knowing RR's harness gets me under 10 across the board.

 

[MartyA]

/snip/I left the rz350 charts with them, showing the 40 amps and how the different spiders are connected. I think the light is going on...

MartyA (and other readers),

Just remember 40 amps is with fans, horns, and 4-ways all on at the same time. And pulling a full 3 amps through the accy socket. Although it is possible scenario, it will rarely, if ever, be seen.

30+ amps is likely, however, if you live in a warm climate where the fans run. And that's still a lot for a 16ga wire.

I understand, and I think they do, but you have a Big Stick there, might as well swing it once or twice....

 

[JamesK]

HEY RZ! Your numbers are why I went with Road Runner's setup versus the entire spider approach. I like the simplicity of the design and ease of install versus having to chase down all those pesky spider bots. Here in No Cal in stop and go my fans come on quite a bit and this just eases my mind knowing RR's harness gets me under 10 across the board.

IMHO, RZ's numbers for Brodie's spider harness are a little too conservative, I would hazard a guess that with the Brodie harness the spiders are seeing less current, since Brodie's harness uses much bigger gauge wiring to ground for each of the spider junctions (since electricity, like water will take the path of least resistance, the Brodie ground wires will be carrying more of the current than OEM ground wires).

Both the RR & Brodie solutions are great fixes and I would guess that the resulting current flows through the spiders are similar, but I like the idea of not having to rely on a daisy chain of crappy spiders, i.e. knowing that each one is grounded independently.

 

[ionbeam]

...If I understand it properly, his solution connects to all spiders (except S2 and S5) and basically provides a second ground path for each one. My calcalations, of course, are very simplistic and should only be used only as a guideline - in real life, its unlikely the current will split 50/50 down the two possible paths...

Current must equally split down both paths, it's the law (Ohm's & Kirchhoff's).

 

[Donal]

...If I understand it properly, his solution connects to all spiders (except S2 and S5) and basically provides a second ground path for each one. My calcalations, of course, are very simplistic and should only be used only as a guideline - in real life, its unlikely the current will split 50/50 down the two possible paths...

Current must equally split down both paths, it's the law (Ohm's & Kirchhoff's).

But........... only if both paths have the same resistance!

Don

 

[doctorJ]

...If I understand it properly, his solution connects to all spiders (except S2 and S5) and basically provides a second ground path for each one. My calcalations, of course, are very simplistic and should only be used only as a guideline - in real life, its unlikely the current will split 50/50 down the two possible paths...

Current must equally split down both paths, it's the law (Ohm's & Kirchhoff's).

Ah, but how do those photons, electrons or whatever decide which half go which way? They must have a board meeting in infinity somehow and asign who goes on which path .

doctorj