Going to the Dark Side

[Patriot]

 

[beemerdons]

As I only managed just over 2K on my tire I' can't say what the sidewalls will look like after 20 30 Thousand.. Mine looked just fine internally but the left outside had a massive bulge from the pothole.. :blink:

Until solid proof comes in regarding this I ain't going to waste another second thinking about it..

Keyrist! I'm still trying to convince folks the moon landings never happened..

Yeah, good luck with that Bust, since half of the Canadian FJR Forum and a fifth of the American FJR Forum have already seen your moon!

 

[Fred W]

Just a question in furtherance of understanding the rim crack and interior sidewall damage on Doug's CT:

What do the interior sidewalls look like on CTs (or on the same tire Doug was using) that have been replaced when the tread is worn out? I mean, is anyone sure that the interior sidewall condition on Doug's CT was the result of 1 mile to the Ranger Station or 15 miles riding after he began to feel something wrong?

Since a CT isn't designed in anticipation of having the car wheels on which they're expected to be mounted being torqued away from parallel with the road surface as much as happens in a MC application, is there a chance that CT sidewalls (or those of the brand and model Doug was using) might be inadequate to withstand the sidewall fatigue resulting from MC use (such that it might become unsafe before the tread is toast)?

And a secondary question: What role did the condition of those sidewalls play in the resulting wheel crack? It seems that much of the discussion assumes that there was an impact that caused the crack, maybe that such an impact or other cause occurred after the tire was deflated. If so, what was the cause of deflation, and was the deflation instrumental in the wheel sustaining an unprotected impact?

Don't have a dog in this fight -- just interested in the engineering issues.

Excellent questions, bum.

I would say that the interior damage was definitely due to overheating that occurred as a result of running the tire flat. I base that on years of observation of tire damage that occurs due to flat tires (on cars). On a 3k lb car they don't last quite as long as doug's did. I do believe that this is a subtle asset of running a CT. If you do get a flat, you can go further on a flat CT than a flat MT.

As to the second question, that is even a better one. We know from his own testimony that Doug ran this thing on a flat rear for quite some time to get to "safety". Is it possible that the damage occurred some time after the tire was flat? Absolutely possible.

As another with no dogs (in this fight) I am more amused than distraught at the impending consequences.

 

[FJRay]

I wish you clowns would give it up. A big ass chunk of falling sky just landed in my front yard and I gotta move the fuker before I can cut the grass. :angry2:

 

[palerider]

Seems a little whimsical to call that a data point.

Except that.... it is a data point.

The crack rim actually happened.... it was witnessed... and verified.... and photographed.

To be sure, it's not a data point the kool-aid drinkers want to believe.

But the *fact* of the matter is... thousands of FJR wheels have turned millions of miles, and nobody has ever seen or heard of a single occurrence of a cracked rim. Ever.

And the *fact* of the matter is..... after 40,000 miles of CT use, a Darksider has a cracked rim... which was unheard of before now.

I realize the kool-aid drinkers desperately want this CT mis-application to be a success, and take all manner of umbrage when presented with undesired arguments, and want to blame everything under the sun for the crack... except the tire.

But I am reasonably sure that most forum members - who are not clouded by the kool-aid - can draw a reasonable conclusion here. Just as I am reasonable sure all the Darksiders will continue to allege this is a perfectly safe and good idea. At least until the next cracked rim.

Resistance is futile.

 

[user 213]

You'd have to be a fool to run multiple tires during a multi-day rally. You have better things to be doing than sitting around a bike shop waiting for them to mount a tire. :yahoo:

Eric, I don't know how you're qualified to make that statement since you haven't actually run in the Iron Butt Rally.

No, my friend, I have not. I did do that other little multi-day rally and rode as many or more miles as many of the IBR riders have. FWIW, I rode as many miles over that 14 day period that covered getting to the rally, riding the rally and riding home as you did for your outstanding 13th place, Gold Medal finish in the '09 IBR..... then put another 9k on that front tire and the rear is still on there, still doing fine. Don't kid yourself. The IBR is no different. It's just a day longer and has different rules, it's still just another rally. And I am not diminishing your ride or anyone else's. Sit there, twist that, get the bonus, repeat.

I do know that can run the entire length of the IBR rally on motorcycle specific tires (e.g. the ME-880) even if you're a big guy with heavy rally load. I did this in 2007 with rubber to spare.

Absolutely true! And it handled like shit for how many of those miles? Sucked in the wet for how many of those miles?

G'head and keep defending that one. I've run Me880s too, and you're not fooling me a bit. 10k and they were toast. And that was just a mix of rally and touring, not all rally miles.

I do agree that sitting around a bike shop waiting to mount a tire is lame, but it's so easily remedied by having a spare rear rim with a tire mounted and ready to go shipped to a known checkpoint or stop. Takes about 15 minutes if you don't dither. I did this in 2009 and was the idea way to go as I had known good rubber the last leg to not worry about.

It's only money. And you bet that is a very workable solution to the problem of not having a tire that you know will last the entire rally. Many have done just that.

If anything, I'm increasingly convinced with the latest data point that you'd have to be a fool to run a car tire on the FJR in a multi-day rally, on a ride, or anything that isn't straight down a drag strip....+/- <5 degrees....as car tires are designed for.

:rofl: At least I did my own testing rather than make a decision based on a data point of ONE.

BTW, there are rather more darksiders than 36. Even with the folks that changed back, the forum number is 44 to the best of my knowledge. Ya gotta read Part 2 of the FAQ. The software glitch prevents me from editing the Part 1 post w/o re-doing all the code by hand. There are at least a dozen more off forum darksiders.

Doug's rim crack is a data point. But regardless of which side you are on, it's still a data point of one. No reasonable person would attempt to form conclusions based on a single event. What is known is that the wheel took a hard hit at some point. Stress fractures tend to start out small and slowly get bigger. Did the CT contribute to the fracture getting larger? I don't know. Neither does anyone else w/o laboratory testing.

P.S. Matt - Dude, tongue in cheek mean anything? Don't take every little poke on the forum that seriously.

 

[user 213]

Just a question in furtherance of understanding the rim crack and interior sidewall damage on Doug's CT:

What do the interior sidewalls look like on CTs (or on the same tire Doug was using) that have been replaced when the tread is worn out?

They look just fine. At 36,600 when I pulled my first CT off, (the same version of Bridgestone BT-019 Grid that Doug was using), I had no dust, no chunks, zero indication of damage or fatigue inside the tire. Nothing out of the ordinary for a moto tire coming off a wheel at 6-10k, except that this CT was coming off at 3.6 to 6 times the mileage. Pictures were posted to this thread at the time.

I mean, is anyone sure that the interior sidewall condition on Doug's CT was the result of 1 mile to the Ranger Station or 15 miles riding after he began to feel something wrong?

Yes. There is no indication that any other event had ever occurred with that tire that could have possibly caused the damage to the inside of the sidewalls. I even had a low pressure event on mine down to 20 psi, plus two flats where I ran freeway speeds for a brief period, (3-4 miles at 65 mph), w/o any indication of damage. Doug was going much slower and the centrifugal force was not sufficient to keep the tire round, rather than running on the partially collapsed sidewalls.

Since a CT isn't designed in anticipation of having the car wheels on which they're expected to be mounted being torqued away from parallel with the road surface as much as happens in a MC application, is there a chance that CT sidewalls (or those of the brand and model Doug was using) might be inadequate to withstand the sidewall fatigue resulting from MC use (such that it might become unsafe before the tread is toast)?

A reasonable question, but also one that has been discussed in considerable depth earlier in this thread. Real world use suggests that the CT is more than adequate to the task. Not to mention that lateral loads of CTs mounted on car wheels is significantly higher than in moto use. Think skid pad or hard cornering where under low pressures it's not uncommon for people to actually fold the tire over the car wheel and lose air pressure. Auto crossers typically mark the sidewall of their tires with white shoe polish to see how far their tires are folding over and thus determine if more air pressure is needed.

And a secondary question: What role did the condition of those sidewalls play in the resulting wheel crack? It seems that much of the discussion assumes that there was an impact that caused the crack, maybe that such an impact or other cause occurred after the tire was deflated. If so, what was the cause of deflation, and was the deflation instrumental in the wheel sustaining an unprotected impact?

Unknown, but it appears unlikely that the crack formed after the deflation event. It may, or may not have gotten worse during that 15 mile run down the mountain. But in absence of any other explanation for the tire losing pressure, it suggests that the crack existed prior to the deflation event and simply got bad enough to cause the loss of pressure in that untimely location.

If it only took 40k of CT use to put a crack in any FJR wheel, I'd have seen one long ago. At ~70 of CT use and 150k on that wheel, it's hard to believe a crack in the wheel due to CT use is a given. It's simply an aberration, if and until more events occur. I doubt they will. In fact, I'm so confident, that I will continue to run a CT on my FJR as long as I own it. It works for me. It obviously works for others or I'd be the only one doing it.

 

[Ignacio]

If anything, I'm increasingly convinced with the latest data point that you'd have to be a fool to run a car tire on the FJR in a multi-day rally, on a ride, or anything that isn't straight down a drag strip....+/- <5 degrees....as car tires are designed for.

:rofl: At least I did my own testing rather than make a decision based on a data point of ONE.

.....

P.S. Matt - Dude, tongue in cheek mean anything? Don't take every little poke on the forum that seriously.

Hence my use of the term "increasingly". I decided it was stupid idea LONG ago. The new data point is just more popcorn for the show.

P.S. Eric - Dude...don't take every little observation about Cheap Siders on the forum that seriously.

 

[user 213]

P.S. Eric - Dude...don't take every little observation about Cheap Siders on the forum that seriously.

Fair enough. I'll still stop and help you with your flat next time you get one. Try to avoid the critters, eh?

 

[SkooterG]

It works for me. It obviously works for others or I'd be the only one doing it.

Reverend Jim Jones. More than 900 Temple members commit mass suicide. Jonestown, Guyana.

Marshall Applewhite - Heaven's Gate folk. 39 members commit mass suicide to hitch a ride on the alien spaceship following the Hale-Bopp (thanks Doug) comet.

Harold Camping. May 21, 2011. Rapture and the end of the world doesn't happen despite all those folks who spent all their money and all their time promoting it.

In other words, madness likes company...........

 

[Warchild]

In other words, madness likes company...........

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[user 213]

In other words, madness likes company...........

Well hell Skooty, just post a pic and I'll give you your number.

 

[SkooterG]

In other words, madness likes company...........

Well hell Skooty, just post a pic and I'll give you your number.

Nahhhh. I've been on my meds lately.

 

[TriggerT]

I was always told people make fun of things they don't understand.

Just my $0.02, and I am waiting to be PROVEN wrong.

 

[juniorfjr]

Reverend Eric will lead us to the temple, when the time comes. :dribble:

 

[SkooterG]

Eric, I took the liberty/creative license to provide you with what I think is a fitting signature line.

Hope you like it.

The Reverend Eric V. The Marshall Applewhite/Harold Camping/Jim Jones leader of the FJR Darksiders. Final Kool-Aid party TBD.......

 

[Gene-ST1300]

Yes the Hankook Ventus 110 is 1/2 narrower than the listed specs, we tried a Exalto on the Honda ST1300 and it would't fit in the swing arm but a same size 205/5017 ventus does with 1/4" to spare on each side . There are at least 4 of us with over 50k total running the Hankook and it does work great within its limits !

 

[user 213]

Yes the Hankook Ventus 110 is 1/2 narrower than the listed specs, we tried a Exalto on the Honda ST1300 and it would't fit in the swing arm but a same size 205/5017 ventus does with 1/4" to spare on each side . There are at least 4 of us with over 50k total running the Hankook and it does work great within its limits !

New first hand data is always welcome. Anyone wear one out yet? If so, how many miles?

You might enjoy going here and adding to the data pool.

 

[doctorJ]

Yes the Hankook Ventus 110 is 1/2 narrower than the listed specs, we tried a Exalto on the Honda ST1300 and it would't fit in the swing arm but a same size 205/5017 ventus does with 1/4" to spare on each side . There are at least 4 of us with over 50k total running the Hankook and it does work great within its limits !

Are you getting the same amount of grief on the ST-owners forum as darksiders are on this forum?

doctorj

 

[beemerdons]

Yes the Hankook Ventus 110 is 1/2 narrower than the listed specs, we tried a Exalto on the Honda ST1300 and it would't fit in the swing arm but a same size 205/5017 ventus does with 1/4" to spare on each side . There are at least 4 of us with over 50k total running the Hankook and it does work great within its limits !

Are you getting the same amount of grief on the ST-owners forum as darksiders are on this forum?

doctorj

I'm pretty sure doctorj the darksider ST-owners are also going to burn for eternal damnation in Hades with the rest of you cat blood drinking and wife swapping Car Tire Cultists, I will have to check in with the Vatican to confirm this. Filthy Heretics!

I'm going to Mass this morning in Phoenix at 8am, I'll say twenty Hail Mary's for you and light five candles; I'll also ask Padre Sanchez to email a clarification letter on this to Pope Benedict, May the Good Lord have mercy on your heathen souls!