Going to the Dark Side

[doug5551]

4. I believe the rim has 100K miles on it. I got the bike with 52K miles on it, and have no indication that the previous owner had replaced it or experienced anything unusual.

The history seems vague. Is it possible this rim was bent and 'repaired' at one time, and a crack has now appeared after many more miles?

Not trying to be vague. Will talk to PO and get exact history when I can.

 

[user 213]

I suppose one could just blithely ignore this glaring coincidence. :huh:

Coincidence - a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection : it's no coincidence that this new burst of innovation has occurred on the FJR Forum.

In any event, I know Doug won't have this kind of tire mis-application at the Start Line in Seattle in two weeks. He knows better now. With a proper motorcycle tire mounted up, he has one less safety issue to stress over. Not the case for other Darksiders running the IBR. Like they need more stress. How many times will that image of the cracked rim flash through their minds.... on Day 7.... on Day 8.... on Day 9.... Day 10....

BWAHAHAHA! Been there on all of those days and more. Never even worried about my tire, (or wheel), once. That same tire is still on the bike after running tens of thousands of miles more. You'd have to be a fool to run multiple tires during a multi-day rally. You have better things to be doing than sitting around a bike shop waiting for them to mount a tire. :yahoo: Correct me if I am mistaken, but there is no rule for the IBR that prohibits CT use. :hehe:

 

[RaYzerman19]

It has come to my attention from another forum that the Hankook Ventus V12 EVO K110 tire is approx. 1/2" narrower than the Exalto, and might be a desirable tire to try. Tread width spec. is 6.8", so it is a bit narrower it seems..... anybody tried this tire?

I'm also wondering if anyone has considered or tried the Yokohama S.drive, which is a 195-45-17 tire. The section width is 7.8" and tread 7", might be worth a look.

 

[doug5551]

]

Just because we haven't seen a MT shod rim crack, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I don't know of a Wing wheel with a CT that's cracked, but I haven't even looked.

I have had two Wing Darksiders review this thread, and have posted this on the wing darkside forum, and no one has seen a cracked rim either.

Here is a response from a friend, who is a darkside expert who has followed their forum extensively and completely:

Doug.I agree on metal fatigue or you'd of heard of other FJR owners who run a BMT (Big Motorcycle Tire aka CT) complaining that they had a slit rim.

 

Guys have over a million miles or two on BMT's on 1800 and nobody have had a rim failure yet.

 

........

 

The part that interests me is the "two dents" that the guy who repaired it found.I think the wheel did hit something hard (or where did the dents come from).

 

[Warchild]

Been there on all of those days and more. Never even worried about my tire, (or wheel), once.

Sure... but that was before you knew about the split rim.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but there is no rule for the IBR that prohibits CT use.

Perhaps not for this year. Patience.

 

[user 213]

It has come to my attention from another forum that the Hankook Ventus V12 EVO K110 tire is approx. 1/2" narrower than the Exalto, and might be a desirable tire to try. Tread width spec. is 6.8", so it is a bit narrower it seems..... anybody tried this tire?

I'm also wondering if anyone has considered or tried the Yokohama S.drive, which is a 195-45-17 tire. The section width is 7.8" and tread 7", might be worth a look.

I did look at the S.drive in 195/45-17 in the beginning and do reference that size in this thread early on. Multiple concerns exist for me - There are very few tires in this size, so you lose the ability of ease of finding a tire. The OD is smaller, causing speedo error instead of correcting speedo error, and I have some reservations about getting the low profile side wall mounted over the FJR rim. Less stretch in that short sidewall.

While Hancook doesn't exactly scream 'quality tire', it is worth investigating the V12 EVO K110 tire. Do keep in mind that specs are printed, but tires vary. Until someone actually measures one in person it remains to be seen how closely the real tire follows the specs. I'll go look at the specs and may try and locate a tire in person to measure if I get the time.

edit: I'm not seeing where you got that data on the Hancook tire. Tire Rack is showing a 8.4" section width and 6.8" tread width, or comparable to the other tires in 205/50-17. Further, that is a Summer Performance Tire with a tread wear rating of 280 and will not last long enough to be worthwhile over a moto tire.

They do offer the Ventus V4 ES H105 which is an Ultra High Performance All Season tire with a 420 rating, but it also has a 8.4 section width and an even wider 7" tread width. It is cheap, at $102.

 

[SkooterG]

Is it possible this rim was bent and 'repaired' at one time, and a crack has now appeared after many more miles?

Not likely imho. I think the shop Doug is using would have recognized a 'previously repaired' rim right away and told him about it.

It's simple you dolts:

CAR TIRE ON MOTORCYCLE = BAD ****.

:****:

 

[palerider]

I'd bet my left nut that's a vibration-enhanced crack.

Good luck getting someone to hold the stakes.

 

[beemerdons]

I'd bet my left nut that's a vibration-enhanced crack.

Good luck getting someone to hold the stakes.

No problem palerider, Skooty or Howie will do it!

 

[RadioHowie]

I'll hold 'em.....

.....with this>>>>>

 

[Ignacio]

You'd have to be a fool to run multiple tires during a multi-day rally. You have better things to be doing than sitting around a bike shop waiting for them to mount a tire. :yahoo:

Eric, I don't know how you're qualified to make that statement since you haven't actually run in the Iron Butt Rally.

I do know that can run the entire length of the IBR rally on motorcycle specific tires (e.g. the ME-880) even if you're a big guy with heavy rally load. I did this in 2007 with rubber to spare.

I do agree that sitting around a bike shop waiting to mount a tire is lame, but it's so easily remedied by having a spare rear rim with a tire mounted and ready to go shipped to a known checkpoint or stop. Takes about 15 minutes if you don't dither. I did this in 2009 and was the idea way to go as I had known good rubber the last leg to not worry about.

If anything, I'm increasingly convinced with the latest data point that you'd have to be a fool to run a car tire on the FJR in a multi-day rally, on a ride, or anything that isn't straight down a drag strip....+/- <5 degrees....as car tires are designed for.

 

[palerider]

If anything, I'm increasingly convinced with the latest data point that you'd have to be a fool to run a car tire on the FJR in a rally, on a ride, or anything that isn't down a drag strip.

Seems a little whimsical to call that a data point.

 

[Ignacio]

If anything, I'm increasingly convinced with the latest data point that you'd have to be a fool to run a car tire on the FJR in a rally, on a ride, or anything that isn't down a drag strip.

Seems a little whimsical to call that a data point.

Whatever. It seems whimsical to deny it is a data point. But, let's dispel that myth right now.

Here are multiple data points with sources where known:

Rear Rim Split Running Car Tires on FJRForum: 1

Known FJRForum Riders Running Car Tires on FJRForum: 36

Rear Rim Split While Running Motorcycle Tires on FJRForum: 0

Approximate FJRForum Members Running Motorcycle Tires: 10000

And while not statistically valid, here's a preliminary analysis:

Rear Rim Failure Rate (split) for Car Tires and Known Dark Siders: 2.8%

Rear Rim Failure Rate (split) for Motorcycle Tires and Presumed MT Users: 0.0%

Here's another one for fun:

Darksiders who deny Doug's split rim is a data point: ~2

MT users who say it's a data point: Just about everybody else.

 

[palerider]

If anything, I'm increasingly convinced with the latest data point that you'd have to be a fool to run a car tire on the FJR in a rally, on a ride, or anything that isn't down a drag strip.

Seems a little whimsical to call that a data point.

Whatever. It seems whimsical to deny it is a data point. But, let's dispel that myth right now.

Here are your data points with sources where known:

Rear Rim Split Running Car Tires on FJRForum: 1

Known FJRForum Riders Running Car Tires on FJRForum: 36

Rear Rim Split While Running Motorcycle Tires on FJRForum: 0

Approximate FJRForum Members Running Motorcycle Tires: 10000

And while not statistically valid, here's a preliminary analysis:

Failure rate for Car Tires and Known Dark Siders: 2.8%

Failure rate for Motorcycle Tires and Presumed MT Users: 0.0%

Here's another one for fun:

Darksiders who deny Doug's split rim is a data point: ~2

MT users who say it's a data point: Just about everybody else.

Open-minded individual running a MT incorrectly called a darksider: ~1

People who said the world was round: ~1

People who said the world waf flat: Just about everybody else.

I was wearing a red shirt when the rim cracked. Add that to the data points.

 

[Warchild]

Seems a little whimsical to call that a data point.

Except that.... it is a data point.

The crack rim actually happened.... it was witnessed... and verified.... and photographed.

To be sure, it's not a data point the kool-aid drinkers want to believe.

But the *fact* of the matter is... thousands of FJR wheels have turned millions of miles, and nobody has ever seen or heard of a single occurrence of a cracked rim. Ever.

And the *fact* of the matter is..... after 40,000 miles of CT use, a Darksider has a cracked rim... which was unheard of before now.

I realize the kool-aid drinkers desperately want this CT mis-application to be a success, and take all manner of umbrage when presented with undesired arguments, and want to blame everything under the sun for the crack... except the tire.

But I am reasonably sure that most forum members - who are not clouded by the kool-aid - can draw a reasonable conclusion here. Just as I am reasonable sure all the Darksiders will continue to allege this is a perfectly safe and good idea. At least until the next cracked rim.

 

[Bustanut joker]

This is getting fun :lol:

 

[exskibum]

Just a question in furtherance of understanding the rim crack and interior sidewall damage on Doug's CT:

What do the interior sidewalls look like on CTs (or on the same tire Doug was using) that have been replaced when the tread is worn out? I mean, is anyone sure that the interior sidewall condition on Doug's CT was the result of 1 mile to the Ranger Station or 15 miles riding after he began to feel something wrong?

Since a CT isn't designed in anticipation of having the car wheels on which they're expected to be mounted being torqued away from parallel with the road surface as much as happens in a MC application, is there a chance that CT sidewalls (or those of the brand and model Doug was using) might be inadequate to withstand the sidewall fatigue resulting from MC use (such that it might become unsafe before the tread is toast)?

And a secondary question: What role did the condition of those sidewalls play in the resulting wheel crack? It seems that much of the discussion assumes that there was an impact that caused the crack, maybe that such an impact or other cause occurred after the tire was deflated. If so, what was the cause of deflation, and was the deflation instrumental in the wheel sustaining an unprotected impact?

Don't have a dog in this fight -- just interested in the engineering issues.

 

[rushes]

This is getting fun :lol:

Has anyone put a car tire on the front yet?

 

[beemerdons]

This is getting fun :lol:

As fun as burro balls?

This is getting fun :lol:

Has anyone put a car tire on the front yet?

Thanks to our rushes, now it is really fun!

 

[Bustanut joker]

As I only managed just over 2K on my tire I' can't say what the sidewalls will look like after 20 30 Thousand.. Mine looked just fine internally but the left outside had a massive bulge from the pothole.. :blink:

Until solid proof comes in regarding this I ain't going to waste another second thinking about it..

Keyrist! I'm still trying to convince folks the moon landings never happened..