Going to the Dark Side

[user 213]

I didn't really mean the sidewalls, so much as the corner of the tread. It really doesn't seem like you went up on the corner very much. Maybe due to your self proclaimed "easy riding style"?
But it makes me think, if during spirited cornering the main flat part of the tire tread actually lifts off the ground (as can be seen in the Utube videos), and you end up riding primarily on the corner part of the (essentially) square tire tread, why wouldn't that corner area wear out prematurely.

I guess a lot will depend on the individual and their particular mix of road types and how aggressively they ride through the corners. For instance, my last rear was a Pirelli Strada (non-E code). Almost everyone complains that they get no warning with that particular rear tire before they see cords. For me, this was absolutely no problem as I wore the tread pattern of the sides and still had a healthy center strip left. I now have a Roadsmart on there w/ ~4k on it, and I think I'm probably going to end up in the same situation. So for a rider like me it may not even make sense to buy the (more expensive) dual compound tires if I'm wearing out the sides before the center. Either that or having the harder center stripe may be what allows me to fully wear the sides out before having to change the tire. Not sure.

But I think you can see where I'm going with this. Some riders might mount up an expensive CT and then wear the corners off of it long before the center gets worn at all.

I didn't want to snip this because you make some very valid points here. I completely agree, that you don't seem to benefit from dual compound tires, and that someone riding like you do, (bastid, sounds like fun!), would probably wear the corners down to the cords on a CT and see no worthwhile benefits.

I don't see the CT as a cheap alternative for most riders. I see it as a longer wearing alternative for riders that already tend to wear the tires out in the middle, and want some more miles between changes, and are willing to accept the differences in handling. On moto tires, I don't have very big chicken strips. 1/8-1/4", depending on tires. I don't think I had any on the Conti RAs. I like to go around the corners at a steady speed though, and don't spend as much time there as others do for various reasons.

Someone asked what speeds I take corners. Basic rule of thumb for me is not to enter a corner at more than double the suggested corner sign speed. Typically I don't slow down from 65 for anything marked 35 or more. For 30s, I down shift to 4th and ease up, then usually enter it at 50-60, depending on how it really is, how well I know it, sightlines, traffic, etc. Slower corners, usually get more down shifting to keep the rpms up. Most of the time in my normal riding area, I'll be entering corners at 5 under double the corner sign, on average. When I'm in other states, I try to get a feel for how that area post the corners before I get comfortable entering them at my 'normal' speeds. Some places 25 really means 25. Other places 25 means 55.

 

[Rls]

I would use a CT if I was in BFE without other options. At that point I would consider anything to get me home and would ride with the understanding that it might not handle as well in corners and adjust my speed appropiately to manage the risk. It coud not be worse than the old Harley hardtail with the bias ply car tire with 15lbs in it that was squarer than sponge bob that I rode once. Just remember the old saying--it is only preverted the first time!

 

[jwhite518]

Even if you are a ******** for corrupting a wonderful bike.

Hey, hey, hey! That's "a ******** that's scored better than me in multiple rallies corrupting a wonderful bike"

:drinks:

Ouch! :lol: :drinks:

 

[glory racing]

I would suspect that your normal self proclaimed riding style of taking it easy and not being a hoon may be percieved slightly inaccurately. Twisties may not be your goal and even if they are few and far between, your riding experience and skills are allowing you to smoothly negotiate corners at a good pace. Taking corners at double the posted limits and some 25mph posted corners at 55mph...thats moving along on public roads. I would suspect that is faster than the majority of fjr pilots normally ride. My projection from post # 77 still stands...A car tire will work just fine for 90% of fjr riders. Again, congrats and keep us posted!

 

[ian]

...For reference, I ride with a Russell Day Long seat and a 4.8 gal fuel cell, so I'm not really looking at the FJR as a "high performance motorcycle" in the same sense as the twisty seeking hoons might.

Now now. Take it easy on the name calling!

Us "Hoons" have not called you car tire running folks any names.

My home location requires me to burn about 600 miles off a tire, just getting to/from the good mountains. So I'm in that wonderful predicament of needing mileage for the slab time and "hoonability" for the twisties. It's probably that along with the 40-grit aggregate on local roads that makes me a "tire tester".

Here's wishing you luck with your experiment. I have to express some genuine concern over what might happen when you have to do the quick obstacle avoidance maneuver required when one encounters BouncingBambi, RunningRover, CellPhoneMuffy, or TurnLeftGranny.

Good luck, ride safe!

600 miles from good roads in NC? Try Iowa! {:&gt I think the southeast has some of the best riding in the country. Ian

 

[FJRay]

Eric, If you get as many miles out of the tire as you have out of this thread you will be very happy. :yahoo:

 

[user 213]

I would suspect that your normal self proclaimed riding style of taking it easy and not being a hoon may be percieved slightly inaccurately. Twisties may not be your goal and even if they are few and far between, your riding experience and skills are allowing you to smoothly negotiate corners at a good pace. Taking corners at double the posted limits and some 25mph posted corners at 55mph...thats moving along on public roads. I would suspect that is faster than the majority of fjr pilots normally ride. My projection from post # 77 still stands...A car tire will work just fine for 90% of fjr riders. Again, congrats and keep us posted!

It's hard to give a good description of one's riding style. I try to ride The Pace. There are guys here that have ridden with me. Mad Mike 2, DougC, Buganator, and a slew of the other LD guys, they might be able to give a better description of how I ride. Here are a couple of links about riding The Pace. Motorcyclist - The Pace and Sport Rider -The Pace

I would like to correct the above part about 55 through a 25 statement. Yes, I've done that, but what I meant by that was that some states/areas seem to mark the corners much slower than you would expect. I've encountered corners marked 25 that could easily be taken at 55 and left me wondering WTF, why was that corner marked so slow?? Normally I'd be hitting a 25 at 40, give or take, again depending on sightlines, conditions and traffic, etc.

My goal when riding is to be smooth. I maintain the same speed through the corner from entry to exit, adjusting my speed before the corner, but not braking hard, then hammering out off the apex. (though that is a hoot on the track where you can be either on the brakes or on the gas the whole time) I do try to maintain a pretty even speed and love the sweepers of 35-45 much more than the <30 corners. That's just me, no slight to the guys that find their thrills on the 20s and 25s.

Keep in mind that the traction pie is still the same reality with a CT. You probably can't apply as much throttle in a hard lean with a CT as with a moto tire, (as FredW mentioned), but if your riding style doesn't include that behavior, it's less of an issue than simply an awareness. Check out the links above, there are diagrams in the second one and they are better writers than I am.

 

[user 213]

Eric, If you get as many miles out of the tire as you have out of this thread you will be very happy. :yahoo:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[user 213]

A better write up on Riding The Pace.

 

[Flylooper]

I read this whole thread from start to here! Whew! Such controversy.

I am a geezer rider, first of all. Certified. I have ridden twisties and ridden them hard in my short career on bikes (about 6 years) now. But in that period of time I was more and more attracted to the LD ride. It was a natural for me. Twisties are nice but I don't like having to work at it, especially mentally. So I tend to ride what any hoon would describe as "conservatively," which is to say, I ride them comfortably. I don't like "testing" myself in the turns. I'll do 'em fast but would rather follow than lead. Get my drift?

Last year I did a 7500 mile ride across the country and back, from here in Oregon. Took me four weeks. The year before, I rode to the Black Hills country in South Dakota and back. The year before that I did the Hyder, AK thing. In 2009 I'm going to try for the Canadian Mariitimes.

When I got home after last summer's ride, my tires were pretty much squared. (Not from interstate riding but from riding the old US Highway system and other secondary roads) I think I had used maybe 35% of the available tread on the Azaro I had on in back, yet the center of the tire was pretty much worn out and after a few more miles I tossed it and replaced with in another 150 dollar tire.

I love my Feej, too. It's incredibly quick, it takes my gear, handles well, protects me from the elements, and is low maintenance (compared to my old Concours, which was my first "Big Bike"). I'm not attracted to Wings or Voyagers or Road Kings.

Each time, when I replaced my rear tires I hated throwing them out when there was so much left on each side of the crown of the tire. It seemed like I was throwing money away.

I remember posting in the Concours Owners Group forum when I first started riding, this question: "Why the heck are motorcycle tires so damned expensive and why do I only get 11-12,000 miles on a rear tire?" And I got the usual replies, some of them seen in this thread. More engineering, softer compounds, etc., etc., etc. So I kind of dummied up and conceded to "the experts."

Last year, I met a "Cogger" who had mounted a CT on his Connie. He had to do a lot more than alter a caliper strut for accomplish that mod. But after he had done it I spoke with him at a COG rally and he swore by it. I think he paid something like 75 bucks for a rear tire, he had 10,000 miles on it and it still looked brand freaking new!

This, I thought, is where my future is.

Yesterday, I went up and visited with Eric in Oregon City. We chatted and he told me pretty much all of what he's posted here. I also saw his bike's rear wheel and my eyes got as big as sewer lids when I saw that thing. Needless to say, I'm going to give it a try myself.

If it works for me the way it's evidently working for Eric, I will have solved a big problem entailed in LD motorcycle riding, which is that I will be using the entire tread and not just part of it, probably quadrupling my mileage, and paying about 2/3rds of the cost of a Michelin PR, which is what I'm running now.

What it comes down to, as Eric said here, is how you use the bike. If you're a rider who routinely get 5 grand out of a rear, there's no way a CT is for you. If you're me, who usually gets about 11-12,000 miles, this may be a very viable option.

Finally, those of you who chastise us guys who don't use the FJR to its max capabilities around the turns are mistaken. People buy ST bikes for the "T" as much as for the "S" part, you know? Give us a break!

$0.02 Cheers!

 

[palerider]

Now now. Take it easy on the name calling!Us "Hoons" have not called you car tire running folks any names.

Hoons unite! (no union dues required)

Wouldn't that be a "hooniun?"

 

[zenwhipper]

I just don't get it. Why the heck worry about tire costs at the potential cost of life or limb? And the discussions about keeping it sane when riding and not stressing the envelope of the car tire is hooey! I'll grant you - you may be a very conservative rider out there - but what happens if you're in a turn and need to swerve to miss some gravel or a deer and yah lean the bike over and the rear slides out and down yah go? And what about the change in handling of the bike as it doesn't 'roll-over' with the profile of a round m/c tire anymore but needs to deal with the square corner of the car tire and the bike handling is unsettled during these transisions? It just seems like a lot of time and energy for some minor benefit and a potential risky downside.

Scott

 

[palerider]

I just don't get it. Why the heck worry about tire costs at the potential cost of life or limb? And the discussions about keeping it sane when riding and not stressing the envelope of the car tire is hooey! I'll grant you - you may be a very conservative rider out there - but what happens if you're in a turn and need to swerve to miss some gravel or a deer and yah lean the bike over and the rear slides out and down yah go? And what about the change in handling of the bike as it doesn't 'roll-over' with the profile of a round m/c tire anymore but needs to deal with the square corner of the car tire and the bike handling is unsettled during these transisions? It just seems like a lot of time and energy for some minor benefit and a potential risky downside.
Scott

I'm sensing from this that you're not a candidate to try this?

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

Now now. Take it easy on the name calling!Us "Hoons" have not called you car tire running folks any names.

I was under the impression that the term 'hoon' was an honorable one bestowed upon riders that sought out the twisty roads. No slight was implied. Now 'squid', that's a slight.

Hoon

 

[user 213]

Some more input after I got 280 wet miles in on the CT on new years day. Yes, it

is different, but not THAT different. At normal speeds above where actual steering is required, it works just

like a bike tire does, with about the same extra effort to initiate turn in as a

worn rear tire. I quickly got used to it and don't notice it now. You do

notice road features differently. Little stuff, not so much. Vertical cracks

or seams that run parallel to the road I notice each edge of the rear tire as it

crosses them. Felt, but they don't push me around. Heavy water I notice an

increased drag over what moto tires feel like.

Traction seems to be well within the envelope I normally ride in. I normally

take corners at no more than double the posted speed, but essentially if they

are 35 or above, I maintain the 60-65 mph pace I'm usually riding at in Oregon.

30s I typically enter at 50, depending on sight lines, if I know the corner, debris, etc.

Yesterday, in pouring rain and wind, I didn't find it necessary to slow from

that pace except for traffic and a few debris filled corners with tree branch

littler where I just wasn't sure how much traction was there.

Please keep in mind, I have NOT had the chance to ride the CT in dry conditions.

I only have about 350 miles on it at present.

To recap - I'm using a Bridgestone 019 Grid all season tire in 205/50-17. That size is

universally rated for a 5.5" wide rim, which is the FJR's size. It's also

fairly common and easy to find. Most of the tires that size have a section

width of 8.4". That's pushing the max allowable on the FJR for clearance to the

break caliper arm. There is some variation in size from specs though, as you

would expect. The previous tire was listed as 8.43" and didn't rub. The

current one is listed as 8.4 and does rub. I made a steel brake caliper arm,

and now a solid billet aluminum one with a crescent cut out for clearance.

Over all, I'm pleased enough with the results to leave it on and be comfortable

with it. I'd really like to see how it does in the dry corners when I'm feeling

a little frisky and can better test the tire. There is a period during scrub in

where it feels very loose and unstable. That went away after about 35 miles and

then it felt much better and I wasn't noticing the transition from flat to side

as much. You never really get "over" on the side, it just shifts so you are

running on one half of the tread instead of the full tread. That does take a

little getting used to as the effect lifts the bike up as you go over, changing

the steering angle to make it steeper. I think at present this may positively

impact the feel and counter some of the slowness to turn in that I expected and

that hasn't been as dramatic as expected.

I hope that gives you gents a better idea of what the car tire is like.

Oh, and it does throw a lot more spray than a bike tire in the rain. The bags seem to stop it

all though as I didn't get any wetter than normal. My back was actually pretty

dry when I got home. Of course, the tanji cell is back there too.

 

[ian]

I just don't get it. Why the heck worry about tire costs at the potential cost of life or limb? And the discussions about keeping it sane when riding and not stressing the envelope of the car tire is hooey! I'll grant you - you may be a very conservative rider out there - but what happens if you're in a turn and need to swerve to miss some gravel or a deer and yah lean the bike over and the rear slides out and down yah go? And what about the change in handling of the bike as it doesn't 'roll-over' with the profile of a round m/c tire anymore but needs to deal with the square corner of the car tire and the bike handling is unsettled during these transisions? It just seems like a lot of time and energy for some minor benefit and a potential risky downside.
Scott

It's not really about the cost for the tires (I just scored 4 front and 4 rear Avon 45/46s for under $500), it's the PITA looking for a tire half way through a long trip. If there's about 1,000 miles left on the rear and it's Thursday, you start hunting because of the upcoming weekend and most shops are closed on Monday. I'm following this with interest and an open mind. Ian, Iowa

 

[Duezzer]

I just read thru the thread and all I got to say is

Right ON

Keep us all posted not that you will have a choice as you will be hounded and hounded forever

What about a tractor tire for the front? :lol:

They got a whack of tread on them

Later

 

[pmk6v]

I can only hope you take the advice of the many, How much can you save on tires as to what you will give up in rideability of your bike? Not to mention the safty or lack of in this. Best of luck, Pete

 

[user 213]

I can only hope you take the advice of the many, How much can you save on tires as to what you will give up in rideability of your bike? Not to mention the safty or lack of in this. Best of luck, Pete

With all due respect Pete, having actually done this, I'm not seeing safety issues here. As for "rideability", you may note in my posts that I don't have any issues with how it rides. However, I base that on my riding style, my experience, my bike and the road conditions I ride in. YMMV.

I knew before I did this that I would have to listen to dozens upon dozens of people with no actual experience riding on a CT telling me I'm going to die a flaming death, I'm unsafe, etc, etc. I did it to evaluate the CT for myself, first hand. I'm sharing it with the forum so others have a single data point that directly relates to the FJR. That's ONE data point, mine. If another person tries it, then they can add a second data point. Maybe, just maybe, there will build up enough data that others can more easily decide if they want to try this or if they shouldn't try this. Regardless, we all benefit from a little experimentation and sharing of info.

 

[jzzmusician]

Flylooper,

Great post and good information. I guess I'm sort of an "old geezer" myself. Twisties are fun, but so is the rest of the journey.

Safe riding to you.

Bob