Going to the Dark Side

[Big-D]

Yes, I too have now officially joined the Elite ranks of the Darksiders, although I have not yet been issued a number. The tire I chose is the same that Radio Howie is running. Its a Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus in of course a 205/50-17. It was really hot today, I think about 112, so I had my swamp cooler filled and blowing directly on me to stay a little cooler while installing the tire and manufacturing my rear hub brace out of a piece of stainless steel. Although I have my own tire machine (manual), I decided to take my tire and rim to a Harley shop and pay them the $30 bucks to have them mount and balance the tire. To make life a little easier, I also made the wooden shelf my FJR is sitting on. I made it from 2X6's and covered it with 1/2" plywood to make the bike sit about 7" inches higher off the ground, plus the section by the rear tire comes off to make mounting easier. One of these days I'll buy a nice motorcycle lift when I can afford one that is. You'll notice my seat is missing. That is because it is at the Russell factory being redone in leather.

I didn't bother hiding my plate number. I mean what's the point?

 

[RadioHowie]

That's awful sweet, Big-D! I like your choice of rubber, too.

 

[beemerdons]

Big-D, your FJR looks wicked bitchen with that car skin on the ass end; Congratulations!!!

 

[RadioHowie]

C'mon, Don...you KNOW you wanna do it. :lol:

 

[user 213]

Hey all,
Have read the DS FAQ, and a lot of this thread. I'm looking to DS my '05 soon, and just wondering if there's any developed consensus yet on which tire seems to be working out best. Is it still the 019, or are we thinking there's a better option? If there's no consensus. . of the tires that folks have tried, are there any you'd NOT use again?

Hi Matt, The BT-019G is probably being used by more people than any other tire. I'm now at 32k on it and not at the wear bars, but getting close. I expect to see 40k from this tire if I don't pull it early for rally season.

Of the other tires, only the Yokahama has been worn out at just over 20k. That did have some rough miles on it, but it still demonstrates a shorter tread life than the 019. Handling seems to be mostly the same with what ever tire is used, although we got some excellent feedback from FJRONAMISSION back on page 59 about the Michelin Pilot® Exalto® A/S tire. He appears to feel that it's more rounded profile allows better transitions. I believe "flickable" was used, which is pretty heavy praise for a CT.

Honestly, at this point we simply haven't worn out enough tires to come to a real consensus on which tires work best. The 019G is a proven performer, but not necessarily the best feel, since I haven't tried any other tires and only Ian has worn one out, (the Yokomaha) and 20k doesn't suck compared to moto tires. Both the the Michelins in use seem promising.

There are lots of tires out there in the 205/50-17 size. I talk about what I look for in the FAQ, but it's like moto tires, everybody has an opinion on what tire they like best.

 

[Kirrilian]

As soon as my PR2's wear out I'm going over to the dark side. I hear they have cookies too!

 

[Udjeni]

Here in North America There are lots of tires out there in the 205/50-17 size.

Corrected that for you Eric. Sure wish I had more of a choice here. :angry:

 

[Big-D]

According to the data on the Michelin Radio Howie and I are running, it should prove to be an excellent tire. Like Eric has stated, there just isn't enough statistical data gathered to confirm which tire is actually better than another.

This will result over time with ratings being dependent on personal experience.

 

[Big-D]

Although I just recently put a car tire on my FJR, I've been running a CT on my other bike for three years now. I don't notice it. I haven't noticed it after one day of having it on. If you are the type of rider that rides public streets as though you are on a track, to where you constantly drag body parts in the turns, then you should probably stay with tires designed to do just that, maybe.

Whether anyone decides to run a CT or not is entirely a personal choice, which really makes no difference to anyone except the person doing it. For me it comes down to a matter of principle. I decided not to support a function that I feel purposely designs motorcycle tires so they need replacing in under 10k miles. It's amazing how many people will write "I got 11k mikes out of my tires", like wow, what an achievement! What is a "sticky" tire? Does it come with glue? Will it adhere itself to the floor if not ridden enough? Why are racing bicycle tires designed to be really hard (60-80psi), but not motorcycles. Races are won or lost in thousandths of seconds, which explains how deep manufactures must dig to remove minuscule amounts of time from a lap around a track. But racers only run one race before changing tires. I find it hard to believe in today's technological advanced society a motorcycle tire could not be developed to last tens of thousands of miles without needing to be replaced and still offer stability and cornering. Maybe they can but don't want to lose that bread & butter. Tire manufactures probably became really pissed when wheels started being manufactured in so many different rim sizes. I remember when cars were either 14 or 15 inch, with most trucks were 16.5 inch and motorcycles were 17 or 18 inch. Thereby separating the two so tires could not be intertwined. This probably explains why there is only one tire (205/50-17) that will fit on an FJR. Why aren't there any tires made in say a 185/60-17? Its all about profit.

With our economy suffering as bad or worse than the 1929 collapse and gas prices leading the way, it is only logical to wonder why motorcycle sales have not sky-rocketed instead of falling through the floor. How does one manufacture justify charging $1200 for a set of plastic suitcases that probably cost under $100 to produce, especially when its made in Japan, a place that American companies migrated to because they told us manufacturing cost were the reason they moved jobs there in the first place. Why does a motorcycle that retails for say an over priced $10k end up costing $12k by the time you roll it out the door. Why does it cost you $200-$500 for "Doc Fees" when all some guy does is fill out a form or two? Why does it cost $500 for "set-up & delivery" when the guy making minimum wage opens a crate that holds a fully assembled motorcycle that even includes oil in the crank case that only has to be washed and a little gas put in the gas tank. Isn't the dealers profit already included in the over inflated MSRP? Come on, how can it cost $25-$35k for a big Honda or Harley, when you can still get a really nice car that includes room for multiply passengers, a heated and air conditioned, an additional 2-4 thousand additional pounds of material and much, much more money spent on R&D to conform with ever increasing stringent safety regulations (i.e. Air Bags, seat belts, collapsing steering columns, steel reinforcing in the roof & doors) that do not apply to motorcycles.

Not meaning for this to turn into a venting, although its not political, nor is it religious and hopefully does not classify me as some form of Fucktard. This is why I installed a car tire on my FJR. And the fact I ride a more conservative ride and rarely, if ever drag anything during my turns. I simply refuse to be screwed over by an industry designed to do just that. When a Darksider make statements like “my cornering ability is not really affected”, why is it so hard to believe it just might be true? When a CT that is designed to support 4-10 times the weight of a motorcycle leans into a turn, why would is slip out any faster than a motorcycle tire? Is it because its not round? In my history of riding, my motorcycle tires always end up being flat just like a car tire after about 2-3k miles. When a motorcycle leans, the contact patch is measured in millimeters. If a CT contact patch and a motorcycle contact patch were actually measured, there would probably not be much difference. If there were, the CT contact patch would end up being greater. Almost weekly on this Forum members write in saying they crashed in one form or another. But to date, I have not seen any Darksider posting they crashed yet. So those that have had their bike slide out on them (not counting those that may have crashed due to a car or truck being the cause), would that slide-out have been eliminated had they been running a CT? Or perhaps it was the fault of the road conditions or possibly (bite my tongue) the rider was riding beyond their ability or expertise. Back when I crashed I was definitely riding beyond my ability, meaning I was not as good as I thought I was, which could have been my technique or my ability to read road or weather conditions or gave my bike at the time more credit than it actually deserved. Either way, the end result was the same, it hurt.

Would you watch a television special that pitted excellent racers, riding excellent bikes, racing against one another switching between car tires and motorcycle tires? I sure would. I would love to see that comparison. But lets face it, there is no way in hell it would ever happen. It could possibly kill the motorcycle tire industry forever. Can you imagine implications if Bayliss beat Spies while he was running a 60,000 mile BFG CT while Spies was running a traditional race tire? You say it couldn't happen! How do you know that? What if?

If I chose to utilize a CT that actually fits, it is my decision. If someone makes the decision that running a car tire is not for them, that is their personal choice. Either decision does not effect me one way or the other. I believe that a tire is a tire, as long as each tire is designed to withstand the heat generated at speed without bursting. That could explain why most darksiders choose a high-performance tire designed in a higher W-Z speed rating. Lets face it, the whole idea of running a CT on a motorcycle at the very least is intriguing, otherwise the posting would not have over 55,000 views and over 1200 replies.

Go Darksiders!! :yahoo: :clapping: :yahoo: :clapping:

 

[RadioHowie]

^^^^^^^^

What he said!

 

[bvail]

Its all about profit.
With our economy suffering as bad or worse than the 1929 collapse and gas prices leading the way, it is only logical to wonder why motorcycle sales have not sky-rocketed instead of falling through the floor. How does one manufacture justify charging $1200 for a set of plastic suitcases that probably cost under $100 to produce, especially when its made in Japan, a place that American companies migrated to because they told us manufacturing cost were the reason they moved jobs there in the first place. Why does a motorcycle that retails for say an over priced $10k end up costing $12k by the time you roll it out the door. Why does it cost you $200-$500 for "Doc Fees" when all some guy does is fill out a form or two? Why does it cost $500 for "set-up & delivery" when the guy making minimum wage opens a crate that holds a fully assembled motorcycle that even includes oil in the crank case that only has to be washed and a little gas put in the gas tank. Isn't the dealers profit already included in the over inflated MSRP? Come on, how can it cost $25-$35k for a big Honda or Harley, when you can still get a really nice car that includes room for multiply passengers, a heated and air conditioned, an additional 2-4 thousand additional pounds of material and much, much more money spent on R&D to conform with ever increasing stringent safety regulations (i.e. Air Bags, seat belts, collapsing steering columns, steel reinforcing in the roof & doors) that do not apply to motorcycles.

Not meaning for this to turn into a venting, although its not political, nor is it religious and hopefully does not classify me as some form of Fucktard. This is why I installed a car tire on my FJR. And the fact I ride a more conservative ride and rarely, if ever drag anything during my turns. I simply refuse to be screwed over by an industry designed to do just that. When a Darksider make statements like “my cornering ability is not really affected”, why is it so hard to believe it just might be true? When a CT that is designed to support 4-10 times the weight of a motorcycle leans into a turn, why would is slip out any faster than a motorcycle tire? Is it because its not round? In my history of riding, my motorcycle tires always end up being flat just like a car tire after about 2-3k miles. When a motorcycle leans, the contact patch is measured in millimeters. If a CT contact patch and a motorcycle contact patch were actually measured, there would probably not be much difference. If there were, the CT contact patch would end up being greater. Almost weekly on this Forum members write in saying they crashed in one form or another. But to date, I have not seen any Darksider posting they crashed yet. So those that have had their bike slide out on them (not counting those that may have crashed due to a car or truck being the cause), would that slide-out have been eliminated had they been running a CT? Or perhaps it was the fault of the road conditions or possibly (bite my tongue) the rider was riding beyond their ability or expertise. Back when I crashed I was definitely riding beyond my ability, meaning I was not as good as I thought I was, which could have been my technique or my ability to read road or weather conditions or gave my bike at the time more credit than it actually deserved. Either way, the end result was the same, it hurt.

Would you watch a television special that pitted excellent racers, riding excellent bikes, racing against one another switching between car tires and motorcycle tires? I sure would. I would love to see that comparison. But lets face it, there is no way in hell it would ever happen. It could possibly kill the motorcycle tire industry forever. Can you imagine implications if Bayliss beat Spies while he was running a 60,000 mile BFG CT while Spies was running a traditional race tire? You say it couldn't happen! How do you know that? What if?

If I chose to utilize a CT that actually fits, it is my decision. If someone makes the decision that running a car tire is not for them, that is their personal choice. Either decision does not effect me one way or the other. I believe that a tire is a tire, as long as each tire is designed to withstand the heat generated at speed without bursting. That could explain why most darksiders choose a high-performance tire designed in a higher W-Z speed rating. Lets face it, the whole idea of running a CT on a motorcycle at the very least is intriguing, otherwise the posting would not have over 55,000 views and over 1200 replies.

Go Darksiders!! :yahoo: :clapping: :yahoo: :clapping:

Sorry, but I don't think we are in any kind of depression at this time, although with the government going down their own version of the 'Dark Side', we may well be heading down that road. When was the last time you saw folks knocking on your back door asking to work for a bit of bread that you baked because you couldn't afford the store bought? We are in a recession, no doubt about it, but I haven't seen 'tramps' riding the railroad from one tramp camp to another.

As far as running car tires on motorcycles goes, this is not a new idea at all. Robert E. Fulton III rode around the world in 1932 on a Brit bike outfitted with CTs. He had a few flat tires, but the tires held up quite well - one set for the entire trip and the roads were pretty primitive back then. His journey was documented in the book, "One Man Caravan". After WWII many GIs purchased surplus military motorcycles and because of the unavailability of motorcyle tires, they put CTs on their Harleys - no big whoop back then. So this has been going on for quite some time. You can tell that to the naysayers.

As far as the high price of gasoline, most of us are paid accordingly, due to inflation and other prices, such as motorcycles have risen also. Back when you could get gas for two bits a gallon, you could also get a loaf of bread for a dime. Gas is now 10 times more expensive, but so is the bread and other commodities. One of the reasons for this is the excessive regulation from the government that increases cost of manufacturing. Besides, what is the most profitable entity around - that produces absolutely nothing? Why the government, whether it be local, state or federal. When they spend all their money, they just make us pay them more of our hard earned cash. At least we have a choice whether or not to buy that car, motorcycle, RV, whatever. Right now I think most of us are walking in pretty tall cotton

 

[palerider]

Lets face it, the whole idea of running a CT on a motorcycle at the very least is intriguing, otherwise the posting would not have over 55,000 views and over 1200 replies.
Go Darksiders!! :yahoo: :clapping: :yahoo: :clapping:

Great post.

This must be the longest thread in motorcycle-forum history.

 

[ian]

Just to keep this thread alive:

Removing the Yokohama to get the Pilot A/S mounted, I ran into a potential problem. Watch the rear brake caliper, mine had a tendency to get caught between the wider CT and the swing arm. Finally removed the bolt to the brake arm, then everything OK (after I pulled the caliper apart to realign the pads).

I was on the other side raising the HF lift and wasn't watching this as it never was a problem with a MCT.

Pilot was $203 with free mounting (tire that is). Ian, Iowa

 

[HazzMatt]

**EDIT**: More persistence and I've found a Harley shop in Tigard that will do it (Paradise Harley-Davidson) for $48. -and my call to Les Schwab (Local car/truck tire shop out here), says they'll look at it and if it looks like the tire will fit would be $20. I'll let y'all know who I ultimately get to mount it. (Might be worth adding a service center listing to the FAQ for shops that are willing to do the mount)

By chance has anyone around Portland Oregon, Vancouver washington area had luck finding a shop to mount the tire? (I'm in Hillsboro Oregon, and Cyclegear and D&S and Beaverton Yamaha tell me no). I may try Les Schwab, but not too hopeful.

Have a shiny new Potenza sitting here that desires only to be put on this FJR rim :glare:

Appreciate any info! h34r:

 

[Patriot]

I only have one concern at this point:

Is there any evidence, consensus, hard data, experience with having an accident with a CT mounted and what the insurance companies' attitude is toward such when processing a claim???

liability, no matter why, would be a big issue.

There was one thread months ago with a report of potential problems with a real world claim.

I haven't been nudged enough to check out darkside forums, but I guess there must be discussions on this issue.

I'm riding 30k plus miles a year lately, more often than not highway touring, so I must consider myself be a canditate.

On the other hand, my last two PR2's made it 15k miles, derby sells them around $133, and my local guy will mount it off the bike for $25.

I can't say my experience there is terribly overpriced.

 

[user 213]

**EDIT**: More persistence and I've found a Harley shop in Tigard that will do it (Paradise Harley-Davidson) for $48. -and my call to Les Schwab (Local car/truck tire shop out here), says they'll look at it and if it looks like the tire will fit would be $20. I'll let y'all know who I ultimately get to mount it. (Might be worth adding a service center listing to the FAQ for shops that are willing to do the mount)
By chance has anyone around Portland Oregon, Vancouver washington area had luck finding a shop to mount the tire? (I'm in Hillsboro Oregon, and Cyclegear and D&S and Beaverton Yamaha tell me no). I may try Les Schwab, but not too hopeful.

Have a shiny new Potenza sitting here that desires only to be put on this FJR rim :glare:

Appreciate any info! h34r:

I had Wingman Ent. mount mine originally. They have one anti-CT guy that gives you the usual you're gonna die bit, and another that's run them on many different bikes and has no issue with it. I have not spoken to them since I had that tire mounted about a year and a half ago. Will need to get a new tire mounted shortly though, this one is about done and has two plugs in it. Firestone shop was uncertain, mostly afraid their machine wouldn't work on the moto wheel.

 

[user 213]

I only have one concern at this point:
Is there any evidence, consensus, hard data, experience with having an accident with a CT mounted and what the insurance companies' attitude is toward such when processing a claim???

liability, no matter why, would be a big issue.

There was one thread months ago with a report of potential problems with a real world claim.

I haven't been nudged enough to check out darkside forums, but I guess there must be discussions on this issue.

I'm riding 30k plus miles a year lately, more often than not highway touring, so I must consider myself be a canditate.

On the other hand, my last two PR2's made it 15k miles, derby sells them around $133, and my local guy will mount it off the bike for $25.

I can't say my experience there is terribly overpriced.

There was some discussion about a real world incident. However, no first hand info could be had. The claim was made that the tire came off the wheel in a corner, causing the crash. This was a cruiser, some Star model. There was no way after the fact to verify this. Ditto on verifying that the Ins. company was denying the claim, though that was stated and the reason being improper equipment, (the CT), on the bike. The person that brought this to the list is reputable, but simply did not have access to first hand info and was apparently unable to verify it beyond the info from one of his customers that came in and told him about it.

Because I have zero knowledge of Star wheels or the tire sizes that fit, and zero knowledge of how well the rider in question was prepared or experienced with CTs, or bike maintenance, or riding at all, it's simply impossible to comment further on the incident. He may have fully understood the situation and been above average in maintaining and checking his ride. Or not.

My agent said the tire had to be "round and black" or they would have and issue with a claim. If you're paying $133 for a rear PR2 B and getting 15k from it, I'm not sure it's worth it to put on a CT. I am seeing essentially 40k to the wear bars on the BT 019G Grid all season CT. But I was comparing that to marginal 6-10k moto tires.

I would suggest that every Ins. company is different, as is every accident. Should you crash and/or be seriously injured, and the incident is quite obviously tire related, it's certainly possible that this could be a problem and result in denial of a claim. It's also more likely that any crash would be related to something else if you're paying any attention at all to your bike's tires, IMHO.

 

[Patriot]

I only have one concern at this point:
Is there any evidence, consensus, hard data, experience with having an accident with a CT mounted and what the insurance companies' attitude is toward such when processing a claim???

liability, no matter why, would be a big issue.

There was one thread months ago with a report of potential problems with a real world claim.

I haven't been nudged enough to check out darkside forums, but I guess there must be discussions on this issue.

I'm riding 30k plus miles a year lately, more often than not highway touring, so I must consider myself be a canditate.

On the other hand, my last two PR2's made it 15k miles, derby sells them around $133, and my local guy will mount it off the bike for $25.

I can't say my experience there is terribly overpriced.

There was some discussion about a real world incident. However, no first hand info could be had. The claim was made that the tire came off the wheel in a corner, causing the crash. This was a cruiser, some Star model. There was no way after the fact to verify this. Ditto on verifying that the Ins. company was denying the claim, though that was stated and the reason being improper equipment, (the CT), on the bike. The person that brought this to the list is reputable, but simply did not have access to first hand info and was apparently unable to verify it beyond the info from one of his customers that came in and told him about it.

Because I have zero knowledge of Star wheels or the tire sizes that fit, and zero knowledge of how well the rider in question was prepared or experienced with CTs, or bike maintenance, or riding at all, it's simply impossible to comment further on the incident. He may have fully understood the situation and been above average in maintaining and checking his ride. Or not.

My agent said the tire had to be "round and black" or they would have and issue with a claim. If you're paying $133 for a rear PR2 B and getting 15k from it, I'm not sure it's worth it to put on a CT. I am seeing essentially 40k to the wear bars on the BT 019G Grid all season CT. But I was comparing that to marginal 6-10k moto tires.

I would suggest that every Ins. company is different, as is every accident. Should you crash and/or be seriously injured, and the incident is quite obviously tire related, it's certainly possible that this could be a problem and result in denial of a claim. It's also more likely that any crash would be related to something else if you're paying any attention at all to your bike's tires, IMHO.

my concern is in ANY accident (having nothing to do with tires), either or both insurance companys cry foul and walk away. For some reason, I equate the CT to putting on an "unauthorized" turbo charger or nitros system. I guess the prudent thing to do is call one's agent or cust service company and discuss it with them. I'd also want, in writing, something documenting the final outcome of the decision if it's a "yay OK to CT."

I plan, in some free time, to peruse the subject on other forums...there IS a dark side forum(s), right?

Thanx much everyone for your input and experience throughout this thread. :yahoo:

 

[bvail]

I only have one concern at this point:
Is there any evidence, consensus, hard data, experience with having an accident with a CT mounted and what the insurance companies' attitude is toward such when processing a claim???

liability, no matter why, would be a big issue.

There was one thread months ago with a report of potential problems with a real world claim.

I haven't been nudged enough to check out darkside forums, but I guess there must be discussions on this issue.

I'm riding 30k plus miles a year lately, more often than not highway touring, so I must consider myself be a canditate.

On the other hand, my last two PR2's made it 15k miles, derby sells them around $133, and my local guy will mount it off the bike for $25.

I can't say my experience there is terribly overpriced.

This has been brought up on other discussions on other boards and although some folks suggested that this might happen, I have seen no evidence of that being so. Maybe an insurance agent or broker could chime in.

First off, how would the insurance company prove that a car tire caused an accident. I have seen where accidents were caused by manufacturing defects such as tread delaminating and the tire blowing out. Would the insurance company reject that? Probably not. I've used a car tire for about 3 years now and follow various darkside forums. Have yet to see a car tire actually fail on a motorcycle and cause an accident.

I'm thinking that a similar arguement could be said about dragging a trailer behind a motorcycle, but thousands do it. I wouldn't worry about it and don't.

 

[palerider]

I had Wingman Ent. mount mine originally. They have one anti-CT guy that gives you the usual you're gonna die bit, and another that's run them on many different bikes and has no issue with it. I have not spoken to them since I had that tire mounted about a year and a half ago. Will need to get a new tire mounted shortly though, this one is about done and has two plugs in it. Firestone shop was uncertain, mostly afraid their machine wouldn't work on the moto wheel.

Well, now that I think about it, it's not surprising to find a tire guy who doesn't want customers to use tires that will last considerably longer.