You guys are all incredible killing machines.
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Gun control
- Thread starter Knifemaker
- Start date
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FYI - 9 will penetrate a lot of common household walls, even a hollow point. A LEO friend responded to a shooting at an apartment complex where a 9mm was discharged about 15 times from the central parking lot of the complex. Some of the rounds penetrated 17 walls, both exterior and interior, before being stopped by an appliance or cabinet door. They were really amazed at both the penetration and that no one was hurt. Most of the rounds were fired at an up angle apparently, which may have helped avoid injury.
Look into frangible projectiles for the home defense ammo. Magsafe, Glaser, etc. Much less likely to over penetrate, but still do the job well. After all, the idea is for the bad guy to absorb all of the energy possible while leaving a nice wound channel.
For a similar reason, I like #4 buck for the shotgun too. Maximum number of pellets that are still decent sized, but not as likely to over penetrate. .24 Vs #00's .33, IIRC.Feejer/Weejer man
Well-known member
Federal HST 9mm +P+. Not here in Ca. where we are limited to 10 shot magazine maximums but 19+1 magazines are available in certain models of the 9mm. The damage is approaching the 40 and 45 without the cost and recoil. But it really doesn't matter what caliber it matters on shot placement and the more the better.
TriggerT
Mr. Impatient
Just a little FYI for some of you guys. The only bullet that matters is the one you put on target. The caliber is secondary to that.
Next, you never, ever, never, shoot someone to kill them. Unless you are in the military, you always shoot to stop a threat. And that threat ALWAYS posses a mortal threat. That's your story, and you better stick to it.
Next, you never, ever, never, shoot someone to kill them. Unless you are in the military, you always shoot to stop a threat. And that threat ALWAYS posses a mortal threat. That's your story, and you better stick to it.
Feejer/Weejer man
Well-known member
So..... For the bullet between the eyes its just Gee officer i just meant to shoot him in the shoulder to stop a threat. That will be my story and I am sticking to it.
TriggerT
Mr. Impatient
That would be with the massive flush of adrenaline you must have pulled the shot a little high. And if you can shoot them between the eyes as they are doing something like charging you with a knife, you need to take up shooting as a profession.
Braenen
Well-known member
For the record, before you shoot any weapon, get competent and qualified instruction. The things coming out the pointy end move fast and dont care what they touch... kinda like my brother.
Anyway, to fire a weapon accurately the trigger must be pulled very smoothly and the weapon held steady. This may sound obvious but it does take a lot of practice.
If you are squeezing the trigger too hard and moving your hand your shot will go high and to the opposite direction of the finger. As an example, a right handed shot would look like this:
Similarly, anticipating the recoil may make you push the weapon in the direction of the hand firing the weapon. Again, this example is of a right handed shooter:
A weapon is not the solution to any problem. Using one can cause you more trouble than any other event in your life. They are not to be used lightly, waived around, talked about, bulged from back pockets or whispered about by your friends. When absolutely every other means of resolving conflict are expended and you or another are about to die they may change the equation. I, for one, prefer to have that one last chance.
Anyway, to fire a weapon accurately the trigger must be pulled very smoothly and the weapon held steady. This may sound obvious but it does take a lot of practice.
If you are squeezing the trigger too hard and moving your hand your shot will go high and to the opposite direction of the finger. As an example, a right handed shot would look like this:
Similarly, anticipating the recoil may make you push the weapon in the direction of the hand firing the weapon. Again, this example is of a right handed shooter:
A weapon is not the solution to any problem. Using one can cause you more trouble than any other event in your life. They are not to be used lightly, waived around, talked about, bulged from back pockets or whispered about by your friends. When absolutely every other means of resolving conflict are expended and you or another are about to die they may change the equation. I, for one, prefer to have that one last chance.
TriggerT
Mr. Impatient
Unless you are Rob Leatham, who purposefully slaps the trigger, and still shoots better than almost anyone on the planet. Of course when you have dominated action pistol shooting forever, you can do whatever you want.
Yes, trigger control is key.
Yes, trigger control is key.
Fubar
FUBAR
Exactly.... The name of the game is hit your target. And any caliber is better than a pocket full of rocks. I never ride without being able to protect my pillion. You could not live with yourself if you couldn't protect those who are important to you.
*Oh, and my partner in the picture has a bad attitude too.
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Knifemaker
Not me
Wow, where you read that bit of stupid propaganda?
10 holes through the chest ain't going to be nessecarily fatal unless you hit a major blood vessel or the heart. 10 .357 rounds will punch right through the lung even faster than a 9. A .45 miight leave larger holes, but, again, unless any of these rounds hits something important like the spine, heart or major artarys to or from the heart, they may not end up being fatal...and may not even stop the threat you are shooting at.
So shot placement is the key, not how big the gun is. 5 .22 hp rounds through the heart will drop someone faster than 10 9mm rounds through the right lung.
I got a good laugh out of a bit by Chris Rock , where he said that everyone should have a gun, that they should not make it so hard for folks to get one. But, the ammunition should cost $5,000.00 a round.
"If a bullet costs you five thousand dollars, I will tell you one thing, there will no longer be any 'innocent bystanders" getting shot..."
KM
painman
Well-known member
I'm not a very good aim, so no guarantee where you might get hit. And good tip, if you don't have a gun just throw up on your wallet and guaranteed they won't want it then...PM. <><
Kaelaria
Well-known member
Good, bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
yes, and after you have given a factual account to the police of exactly the threat and what happened (they should be writing this down)...
you should start complaining of "chest pain" and "shortness of breath" and request to go to the hospital ER.
You can't breathe, you can't answer any other questions, you've never had anything like this happen to you before,
you are emotionally devastated and think you're having a heart attack over the incident,
you've never had anyone try to kill you before, you can't breathe.....
it will give you time to call that criminal defense lawyer's number you have in your wallet (the one you've researched and carry with you).
He/she will take a VISA number over the phone (you've got that memorized too - $5000 is a good start for this retainer).
He/she will meet you in the ER (or talk to the Police over the phone) when they come to interview you some more.
Police are witnesses. They do not judge. Give them the facts you want the prosecutor to know.
...YRMV....
El Toro
Innocent Bystander
I like guns. They're a lot of fun, especially at the range, or in the field (hunting). Its a great sense of accomplishment when you can take your quarry, be it a clay target, a turkey, a wild hog, a big buck, an old doe, or a bird on the wing.
It is especially fun when you take the time to work up loads for each of your rifles or guns. I love to find that load (powder, charge weight, bullet, primer, and length) that will let me shoot sub minute of angle groups.
I started with air rifles, moved on to black powder, and eventually to modern high power rifles. I think this progression gave me a real appreciation for just what it takes to be consistent, and to deal with the special pressures that are associated with both target shooting and hunting.
My skills have developed to the point where I actually have a laminated trophy where I shot the wings off a wasp at 100 yards. Honest Injun.
In the area of protection, I hate the idea of using a gun to neutralize a threat... but that doesn't mean I wouldn't do it if it were necessary. My usual approach is to try to avoid situations where there will be threats that need to be neutralized. I don't want to have to play the legal system to justify the use of force.
My wife's uncle was an old boy from the back woods, and we had responsibility for his care during his final years. We let him live by himself because he really didn't want to do otherwise. Toward the end his mental state diminished, and we asked his doctor to evaluate him secretly to see if it was time to take his guns away and take more care of him. The doctor looked him in the eye and asked "Ed, do you have any guns?" He said "Hell yes, I've got guns. I know that if I shoot someone, I'll have to drag him into the house so that it will appear to be self defense. I'm too old now to drag someone into the house after I shoot him, so I have to wait for him to break in." The doctor said "Mr. Ed, you be careful with those guns." And the doctor offered us no help whatsoever in disarming the old boy.
There's a fine line between freedom as defined by the 2nd ammendment, and insanity.
It is especially fun when you take the time to work up loads for each of your rifles or guns. I love to find that load (powder, charge weight, bullet, primer, and length) that will let me shoot sub minute of angle groups.
I started with air rifles, moved on to black powder, and eventually to modern high power rifles. I think this progression gave me a real appreciation for just what it takes to be consistent, and to deal with the special pressures that are associated with both target shooting and hunting.
My skills have developed to the point where I actually have a laminated trophy where I shot the wings off a wasp at 100 yards. Honest Injun.
In the area of protection, I hate the idea of using a gun to neutralize a threat... but that doesn't mean I wouldn't do it if it were necessary. My usual approach is to try to avoid situations where there will be threats that need to be neutralized. I don't want to have to play the legal system to justify the use of force.
My wife's uncle was an old boy from the back woods, and we had responsibility for his care during his final years. We let him live by himself because he really didn't want to do otherwise. Toward the end his mental state diminished, and we asked his doctor to evaluate him secretly to see if it was time to take his guns away and take more care of him. The doctor looked him in the eye and asked "Ed, do you have any guns?" He said "Hell yes, I've got guns. I know that if I shoot someone, I'll have to drag him into the house so that it will appear to be self defense. I'm too old now to drag someone into the house after I shoot him, so I have to wait for him to break in." The doctor said "Mr. Ed, you be careful with those guns." And the doctor offered us no help whatsoever in disarming the old boy.
There's a fine line between freedom as defined by the 2nd ammendment, and insanity.
Sagebrush
Well-known member
5" 460 S&W.... 300 grain flat nose cast hand loads... If you miss, the muzzle flash will blind them... :crazy: :butcher: :trinibob:
EODSarge
Well-known member
Under stress, your accuracy drops dramatically. When the adrenalin starts flowing, you start experiencing auditory exclusion (loud sounds become quieter), tachypsychia (time seems to slow down), tunnel vision, and a loss of fine motor skills (from loss of blood to the extremities). All of this adds up to decreased accuracy, to the tune of 20 to 30% worse than you normally shoot on a static range with no stress. Add on to this that the head and hands are very small targets, that are moving around a lot. Yes, for an absolute 100% one shot stop that turns his lights out like a flipping a switch, you have to hit the head- more explicitly, you have to destroy the medulla oblongata, the brain stem, that controls motor functions. To destroy that, you have to put a bullet into a two inch wide strip centered below the eyes and around the head. Doing that on a moving target (and heads move a lot) while under stress is very, very difficult. Ditto the idea that you can "shoot to wound" or "shoot the gun out of his hands". Isn't likely to happen.why would you shot at the torso? You shot to kill and torso would not be my choice. Just saying
Now, why are we using a gun against someone, anyway? To protect our life or a third person's from death or great bodily injury. We want to stop the aggressive actions of the bad guy. With a gun, stopping his aggressive actions means he's probably going to die if we do it right. If we can't hit the head, the largest collection of vital organs that, if damaged, are likely to stop the suspect, are contained in the upper chest. Heart, lungs, diaphragm, aorta and other large blood vessels- these are going to be damaged in an upper chest hit. Plus- and here's the kicker- the upper chest moves a lot less compared to the head and is a larger target. So, all things considered, your best bet under poor conditions is to shoot for the upper chest.
As has been mentioned, shot placement is key. Put those shots in the upper chest, no matter what caliber you're using. If you practice, practice, practice and can somewhat control your body's response to adrenalin, you may get a chance at a head shot; but your first ones should be in the chest. You may run across some old-timers who say "shoot 'em in the hips with a big bullet to bring 'em down" and yes, it may take their legs out from under them; but it won't stop them from attacking. There was a shootout in PA where one man with a .45 was shot 80 some-odd times with .40 and .223 rounds and still managed to wound most of the officers there and finally died, minutes later, from blood loss. Why? Because the majority of their shots hit him in the legs and pelvis. Not one shot hit the center of mass. Not one.
I really need to update and finish this: https://katsden.5100bac.net/firearms/ One final note: Obviously, I'm a devotee of the second amendment. But there are a couple of things any person contemplating using a firearms for self-defense needs to consider: 1) Could I take another human life if I had to? If you can't, it doesn't make you a good or bad person; just don't choose a gun for defense. Using a gun to defend yourself means you will probably kill the other person. I've met cops who couldn't answer yes to that question and I've tried to steer them to another career path. 2) Will I take the time to practice with this weapon and become proficient with it? Shooting is a skill that will deteriorate without practice; and there's no way to get better at it without practice. Lots of practice. Some things will become muscle memory (the draw, to some extent the trigger pull) with practice, but it takes 3000-5000 repetitions before they'll become muscle memory and they'll degrade without more practice.
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k7lvo
Well-known member
I don't see how anyone can really KNOW if they can shoot someone until they are put to the test. Oh, you can be pretty sure, but you can't KNOW - not until it happens. I would be more in doubt of someone who said they were sure they could than someone who said that they were pretty sure they could.
Toecutter
What would DoG do?
I'm pretty sure I'd probably shoot 'em too soon. Been in a couple of deals, and having a gun really makes one bold, until the cops get there....
El Toro
Innocent Bystander
To say nothing of burning them.
I used to have the short barrelled S&W 500 pistol, and when we had a group of Swedes visit us a few years back, I took them to the range so they could shoot different things that weren't typically available to them at home. The biggest hit was the short barrelled 500 S&W . They all wanted to take videos of themselves shooting this one because of the muzzle blast. They were like kids in the candy store.
I used to also have an H&R Handi-Rifle chambered for the 500 S&W. The first time out of the box, with the open iron sights that came on the gun, I popped a wild hog at 135 yards and dropped it where it stood.
The biggest handgun round I shoot nowadays is the "lowly" .454 Cassull. It still makes Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum seem mighty tame, but it doesn't hurt the thumb nearly as badly as the 500 S&W.
