Holeshot Header Experience

[rdcyclist]

I'm sorry girls, however, a power farkle on a bike with 120+RWHP is about as useful as tits on a Bull.

How exactly does one develope a performance exhaust without dyno runs??? "Sounds incredible" doesn't automatically equate to more power. <_< <_< <_<

And like Toecutter and Skippy, I don't see the attraction to creating more pollution for a couple hp on a bike that already has plenty.

OK, I can understand your reluctance to increase the power of your FJR. For you guys, the bike has plenty. Looking at it in the view of air pollution is certainly admirable. Fortunately (or unfortunately as the case may be) we aren't all the same. If some of us didn't want more power or better handling or newer styling, we'd all be riding Honda 305s (or maybe Vincent Black Shadows, which might not be a bad thing).

The major impetus for building the pipe was to improve the midrange of the bike, take off some weight, and help the bike to run cooler. It scores on all three points.

On the pollution front, removing the cat from 100 FJRs will have the same effect on air quality in the US as about three cow farts. Truth be told, when the California Air Resources Board first proposed smog equipment on motorcycles in the 80's, a study by the EPA concluded it would provide NO measurable improvement in air quality whatsoever due to the small number of motorcycles in relataion to cars and other gross polluters. The study went on to say that CARB should implement the regulations so as to get control over the motorcycle industry. So you can look at the smog crap on your bike as just another power grab by our government.

Of course you are free to have your own opinion of more power or more pollution just as others on this board are free to have theirs.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

OK, I can understand your reluctance to increase the power of your FJR. For you guys, the bike has plenty. Looking at it in the view of air pollution is certainly admirable. Fortunately (or unfortunately as the case may be) we aren't all the same. If some of us didn't want more power or better handling or newer styling, we'd all be riding Honda 305s (or maybe Vincent Black Shadows, which might not be a bad thing).
The major impetus for building the pipe was to improve the midrange of the bike, take off some weight, and help the bike to run cooler. It scores on all three points.

Actually, the whole hp/pollution issue was my secondary point. I like hp as much as the next guy, I just don't think it's worth minimizing the bike's environmental friendliness in favor of a limited # of ponies increase (lose the cats, keep the stock cans?????) I sold my R1 last year...it had more hp than this bike could ever hope to.

As for the three goals you mentioned for building this pipe;

Lose weight? - I'd like to know how much lighter this headpipe is than stock...1 lb? 2 lbs??? You can lose that much with a lighter helmet (or a healthy dump ). The big weight is in the cans, not the header.

More midrange? - You probably accomplished that. You probably could have accomplished the same with a PCIII and a custom map for less money and kept the cats on.

Less heat? - Given the location of the cats on the stock header, I doubt that that much converter heat actually makes it to the rider, but you might have me on that one. Most of the heat complaints on this bike stem from engine/radiator heat, not cat heat.

My primary point was, and still is...How exactly does one develope a performance exhaust without dyno runs???

 

[too_many_hobbies]

I vote for more torque and horsepower. I have never ridden an FJR, but already know I will want more power. I will buy the full system plus Power Commander, assuming it is available for an '06, if dyno results show it to add as little as 5 more horsepower. After a year on my Busa, I was starting to get used to it and wanting more power. If I hadn't ordered an FJR, I would have probably went Turbo on the Busa.

I am proud to see someone produce another option for the FJR. Let's not shoot the developer down before they even come to market. If there is something that bothers you, just don't buy it, but don't discourage the developer to the point of possibly keeping it from the rest of us.

Thanks for the option, Holeshot!!!

too_many_hobbies

 

[radman]

I'm sorry girls, however, a power farkle on a bike with 120+RWHP is about as useful as tits on a Bull.

How exactly does one develope a performance exhaust without dyno runs??? "Sounds incredible" doesn't automatically equate to more power. <_< <_< <_<

And like Toecutter and Skippy, I don't see the attraction to creating more pollution for a couple hp on a bike that already has plenty.

OK, I can understand your reluctance to increase the power of your FJR. For you guys, the bike has plenty. Looking at it in the view of air pollution is certainly admirable. Fortunately (or unfortunately as the case may be) we aren't all the same. If some of us didn't want more power or better handling or newer styling, we'd all be riding Honda 305s (or maybe Vincent Black Shadows, which might not be a bad thing).

The major impetus for building the pipe was to improve the midrange of the bike, take off some weight, and help the bike to run cooler. It scores on all three points.

On the pollution front, removing the cat from 100 FJRs will have the same effect on air quality in the US as about three cow farts. Truth be told, when the California Air Resources Board first proposed smog equipment on motorcycles in the 80's, a study by the EPA concluded it would provide NO measurable improvement in air quality whatsoever due to the small number of motorcycles in relataion to cars and other gross polluters. The study went on to say that CARB should implement the regulations so as to get control over the motorcycle industry. So you can look at the smog crap on your bike as just another power grab by our government.

Of course you are free to have your own opinion of more power or more pollution just as others on this board are free to have theirs.

++1

Response edited to eliminate political leaning diatribe.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

rdcyclist Posted on Feb 5 2006, 12:57 PM<snip>

....we'd all be riding Honda 305s (or maybe Vincent Black Shadows, which might not be a bad thing).

Over-rated they may be -- my FJR is my Vincent Black Prince (if it were black...)

Dangerous Dave Posted on Feb 5 2006, 12:23 PM<snip>

How exactly does one develope a performance exhaust without dyno runs??? "Sounds incredible" doesn't automatically equate to more power.

To relate a really old story and connect to the Honda 305 reference: a long time ago....CW ran a test (on C.R. Axtell's dyno) of all the, then available, different exhausts (and some air cleaner/velocity stack stuff, too) on a CB77 (Super Hawk 305) -- and, nothing provided more power over as wide a range as the stock set-up. Some did provide small gains in narrow rev ranges, tho.

'Twas always thus....

 

[Dangerous Dave]

I vote for more torque and horsepower.  I have never ridden an FJR, but already know I will want more power.  I will buy the full system plus Power Commander, assuming it is available for an '06, if dyno results show it to add as little as 5 more horsepower.

Well more power to ya (pun intended). I'll be interested in seeing the before and after dyno numbers...once there actually are some...as well as what it cost you in $$ per hp.

Mr. Skeptical

 

[Fallen Jim Rides again]

. . . . . . . .
My primary point was, and still is...How exactly does one develope a performance exhaust without dyno runs???

+1

Once upon a time, a very long time ago, I sold performance parts for automobiles. Must have carried 12 different brands, most with mulitiple lines of headers. About half of those did nothing but allow the purchaser to talk about his headers and maybe put a sticker in the window for the same reason.

The better manufacturers all had dyno charts for their headers.

Just putting larger diameter tubes or whatever does not automaticly increase HP and sometimes actually reduces it in some rpm ranges.

This claim is inconsistant with Dale Walkers reputation as I have come to understand it from this forum.

Hmmmmm.....

 

[Feejer/Weejer man]

You know its not all about hp's even though that ain't no bad thing. Its about being able to richen up with a PC and allow this engine to breath better and without the cats hopefully to dissapate some of the heat that may be causing the ticking? and riders heat.I think all in all it would be an improvement for the fuel mixture and heat . With Dale's experience there is always a rule of thumb for exhaust and I don't believe he would sell us out for a few dollars.

 

[Shadowfax]

From Dale's reputation, I wonder if he has dyno work from one mule, just not from this road-tested one.

 

[Feejer/Weejer man]

I was one of the first with the Holeshot exhaust. He had two owners take their bikes to Vegas to dynajet for testing. One with oem exhaust and one with his Holeshots. Dyno and mapped both bikes. I believe in some of us talking with him, it was known that the header would't give great gains but increase the performance with the PC and remedy the heat from the cats that might be better for the heat. Seeing the '06 has changed the air flow and radiator design maybe the header will help earlier models.

 

[Penforhire]

No dyno plot means fewer sales. Dale's choice. It is nice to hear "OMG I sure could feel it!" but the dyno doesn't lie (if run correctly). Like someone else sort of said above, more peak HP is not useful to me. But fatten up the curve, say +4 Ft-Lb at 4000 RPM, or smooth out the response (like the PCIII alone is supposed to do) and you've got my attention and maybe my money.

 

[Bounce]

Less heat? - Given the location of the cats on the stock header, I doubt that that much converter heat actually makes it to the rider, but you might have me on that one.  Most of the heat complaints on this bike stem from engine/radiator heat, not cat heat.

I reported on the FJR boards some time ago the operational temperature of the cat/cons. They are located directly under the rider where that concentrated heat rises up into the fairing and accumulates under the seat pan and tank due to convection when the bike is stopped in traffic.

Moving the cat/con into the mufflers/cans would resolve this as would using the Holeshot headers.

The heat from the radiator, at best is about 250°F. The cat/cons operate between 300° and 400+°F

 

[radman]

Converters work most efficiently at about 600 K, or 620 degrees fahrenheit. That be a whole lotta heat at the feet.

 

[yamahlr]

Cats get so hot it's unbelievable. I recall on a police cruiser that had been idling most of the night at a m.v. crash scene, they actually began to glow and you could smell the rubber floor mat in the car at that point. Even if the header's performance is close to stock, for me the reduction in heat is worth the expense.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Cats get so hot it's unbelievable. I recall on a police cruiser that had been idling most of the night at a m.v. crash scene, they actually began to glow and you could smell the rubber floor mat in the car at that point. Even if the header's performance is close to stock, for me the reduction in heat is worth the expense.

If you saw cats glowing on a vehicle that was idling for an extended period, that vehicle has bigger problems than the cats. Catalytic converters don't begin to "catalyze" until they reach their "light-off" temperature, which should never happen at idle. Once they light off, a healthy cat will measure ~300*F HOTTER at the outlet than the inlet. That's the most reliable way to test a cat...with an infrared thermometer checking inlet and outlet temps after several minutes at elevated rpm levels. If you see cats glowing after a long idle period, it's probably dumping raw fuel down the exhaust, which will kill the cat anyway.

 

[nusman68]

I just checked Dale's site, Holeshot.com; still nothing on it about the header; no 'press release,' expected production run(s), nothing...why not? :dntknw:

Besides the obvious, I would also like to know why he did away with crossover pipe; I was always told they were an advantage...It would be great to lighten the bike and lessen the heat; I hope he publishes all the pertinent info. soon...

 

[Feejer/Weejer man]

Just spent about a half hour on the phone with Dale. Purchased a header and got the info on what, why and how. Its going to be a great addition to my bike. He will post soon. Plus they have a map for the Holeshots and header. The heat exchanged between the exhaust and cats are enough reason alone to buy the header.

 

[Windjammer]

dumping raw fuel down the exhaust, which will kill the cat anyway.

That's a helluva cruel way to kill a cat, but then the only good cat is a dead cat anyway. Works for me. :haha:
It's prolly a little too early to pass judgement. Soon enough someone will put the header on, dyno test it old vs new, and take some basic heat measurements. A brave soul shall lead us into the light!

Environmental impact of taking out the cat? Ever ride behind a big diesel truck, breathing all that "harmless" soot and stench they spew into the air? That truck driving around for a single day prolly pollutes more than a non-cat FJR could in its whole lifetime. Worrying about the pollution from your FJR is like worrying about one snowflake in the Rockies. I like a clean environment too, but let's sweat the shit that counts.

 

[too_many_hobbies]

+1 what Windjammer said. Bring on the precious few extra ponies! I like toys with extra power...

too_many_hobbies

 

[too_many_hobbies]

Here is proof that is better than any dyno. Click on the link below to see what a difference a Holeshot header made. It is now much easier to ride on the back wheel...

https://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=ndu3qd

too_many_hobbies