I will miss the smell of burnt exhaust gases!

[bigjohnsd]

... I figure 120 years ago, people were having these same discussions about the newfangled horseless carriages...

And back then, cities had intolerable poution from horse manure.

True dat! The horseless carriage was touted as the end of air pollution (smell of manure), the solid wastes from horses, and the end of parking problems, because it would no longer require a full city block to "park" three or four wagons at the curb.

You obviously haven't visited a National Park when the Motorhomes are out, the stupid bastards can phuck up a parking lot worse than the Asian tourists in free form parking mode.

 

[infrared]

... I figure 120 years ago, people were having these same discussions about the newfangled horseless carriages...

And back then, cities had intolerable poution from horse manure.

True dat! The horseless carriage was touted as the end of air pollution (smell of manure), the solid wastes from horses, and the end of parking problems, because it would no longer require a full city block to "park" three or four wagons at the curb.

You obviously haven't visited a National Park when the Motorhomes are out, the stupid bastards can phuck up a parking lot worse than the Asian tourists in free form parking mode.

BigJohnSD,

I did not say that any of these touts were true. The statement was supposed to ironic, not serious. I guess I should have said, Be careful about solutions that come with new problems.

Personally, I think the long-term answer is using solar power to crack water, for almost free hydrogen (once the equipment is purchased). A few small cyinders of hydrogen feeding a fuel cell could charge vehicle batteries on the fly, with reasonable efficiencies, and very few moving parts. NOVA (PBS-TV) has showed an Artificial Leaf, in plain water. Exposed to sunlight, hydrogen came foaming off the leaf constantly. The gas production from that single Leaf was almost like an Alka-Seltzer tablet in water, except that it didn't quit. An electric bike, with a fuel cell in one pannier, would have as much range as you want.

 

[bigjohnsd]

... I figure 120 years ago, people were having these same discussions about the newfangled horseless carriages...

And back then, cities had intolerable poution from horse manure.

True dat! The horseless carriage was touted as the end of air pollution (smell of manure), the solid wastes from horses, and the end of parking problems, because it would no longer require a full city block to "park" three or four wagons at the curb.

You obviously haven't visited a National Park when the Motorhomes are out, the stupid bastards can phuck up a parking lot worse than the Asian tourists in free form parking mode.

BigJohnSD,

I did not say that any of these touts were true. The statement was supposed to ironic, not serious. I guess I should have said, Be careful about solutions that come with new problems.

Personally, I think the long-term answer is using solar power to crack water, for almost free hydrogen (once the equipment is purchased). A few small cyinders of hydrogen feeding a fuel cell could charge vehicle batteries on the fly, with reasonable efficiencies, and very few moving parts. NOVA (PBS-TV) has showed an Artificial Leaf, in plain water. Exposed to sunlight, hydrogen came foaming off the leaf constantly. The gas production from that single Leaf was almost like an Alka-Seltzer tablet in water, except that it didn't quit. An electric bike, with a fuel cell in one pannier, would have as much range as you want.

I wasn't taking issue with what you said, poor choice of words on my part, the wagon has been replaced by other equally obnoxious forms of conveyance.

I like the Hydrogen cell idea myself, maybe in my lifetime!

 

[mcatrophy]

If you're going to carry a bottle of hydrogen, why not stick with an internal combustion engine? I don't know what the relative efficiencies would be, but we'd get our noisy, vibrating, characterful bikes back, with only water vapour as a pollutant at the point of use.

 

[infrared]

If you're going to carry a bottle of hydrogen, why not stick with an internal combustion engine? I don't know what the relative efficiencies would be, but we'd get our noisy, vibrating, characterful bikes back, with only water vapour as a pollutant at the point of use.

mcatrophy,

That would be some "character" that comes with a lot of pricetags attached. In the future, I can imagine kids being amazed at the insane complexity and wastefulness of ICE power systems. Hydrogen as ICE fuel is about as wasteful as gasoline. The power needed (wasted) to reverse the direction of piston travel twice on each revoluton is huge.

Efficiency? I'd expect between four to ten times more mileage with a "fuel cell-electric" vehicle over the hydrogen-fueled ICE vehicle. Worry about rings, valves, catalytics, compressions, air/fuel ratios, transmission gears, and clutches are now just quaint history, with the electric bike.

Fuel cells are practically silent; the rolling tires would be more noisy. Jay Leno rides & reports that the noisiest part of the Lightning now is the drive chain:



I could live without the noise and vibration of ICE engines, myself. I fly hang gliders for fun, these last forty years, and I have flown with the eagles and hawks; "silent running" at ground level would suit me just fine. Riding is the flying that I do on the ground; I have no need for noise there.

Then too, I would like the idea of leaving little or no footprint on Spaceship Earth. Solar-cracked hydrogen can be the right answer, there. Google corporate now runs entirely on fuel cells powered by natural gas, with no electric power from the outside. Similar home-scale fuel cells, about the size of a washing machine or refrigerator, are on the market now (no hydrogen, just natural gas for fuel). This option is not just pie-in-the-sky rocket science. Running fuel cells on hydrogen instead of natural gas would only be cleaner.

Cheers,

Infrared

 

[mcatrophy]

If you're going to carry a bottle of hydrogen, why not stick with an internal combustion engine? I don't know what the relative efficiencies would be, but we'd get our noisy, vibrating, characterful bikes back, with only water vapour as a pollutant at the point of use.

mcatrophy,

That would be some "character" that comes with a lot of pricetags attached. In the future, I can imagine kids being amazed at the insane complexity and wastefulness of ICE power systems. Hydrogen as ICE fuel is about as wasteful as gasoline. The power needed (wasted) to reverse the direction of piston travel twice on each revoluton is huge.

Efficiency? I'd expect between four to ten times more mileage with a "fuel cell-electric" vehicle over the hydrogen-fueled ICE vehicle. Worry about rings, valves, catalytics, compressions, air/fuel ratios, transmission gears, and clutches are now just quaint history, with the electric bike.

Fuel cells are practically silent; the rolling tires would be more noisy. Jay Leno rides & reports that the noisiest part of the Lightning now is the drive chain:

Don't get me wrong, I'm only offering a hypothetical alternative that might have more owner appeal (if that wasn't part of the equation, why would anyone ride a Hardly Ableson?). I know that an ICE has an efficiency around 30-40%, I have no idea on the conversion efficiency of a fuel cell to electricity. Downstream, a motor is likely to be of the order of 90%, probably fewer gearbox losses since fewer gears (?). (As is obvious, I don't really know what I am talking about, but that's never stopped me before

.)

I see no advantage over using natural gas over petrol (gasoline). Although there are relatively fewer CO2 emissions, it's still worse than the zero net emission of solar-cracked water into hydrogen. Fat chance of that large scale here in the UK.

 

[infrared]

If you're going to carry a bottle of hydrogen, why not stick with an internal combustion engine? I don't know what the relative efficiencies would be, but we'd get our noisy, vibrating, characterful bikes back, with only water vapour as a pollutant at the point of use.

mcatrophy,

Efficiency? I'd expect between four to ten times more mileage with a "fuel cell-electric" vehicle over the hydrogen-fueled ICE vehicle. Worry about rings, valves, catalytics, compressions, air/fuel ratios, transmission gears, and clutches are now just quaint history, with the electric bike.

Cheers,

I see no advantage over using natural gas over petrol (gasoline). Although there are relatively fewer CO2 emissions, it's still worse than the zero net emission of solar-cracked water into hydrogen. Fat chance of that large scale here in the UK.

mcatrophy,

I agree, natural gas as power for a fuel cell is just a stop-gap, until hydrogen gets going. Still, for now, it is plug-and-play.

Here is solar-cracked hydrogen: sunlight + "artificial leaf" + plain water.

(copy and paste this URL into YouTube.com because it will not show here)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7ok8cOJbmo&t=52

Okay, screenshot:

Cheers,

Infrared

 

[Nanahanman]

Jay's Garage said: $38,000. 150 miles/charge. 470 pounds.
Give me a minute and I'll do the Canadian conversion.

$46,550 CAN. 240 km/charge. 213 kg. (Thanks, Google.)

I can do that conversion without Google.

TOO MUCH....TOO LITTLE

 

[Uncle Hud]

Jay's Garage said: $38,000. 150 miles/charge. 470 pounds.
Give me a minute and I'll do the Canadian conversion.

$46,550 CAN. 240 km/charge. 213 kg. (Thanks, Google.)

I can do that conversion without Google.

TOO MUCH....TOO LITTLE

I needed Google -- because I'm an American and everybody else in the world converts to our units -- but I agree with your opinion. What good is a toy that only goes 150 miles? Sheesh.

 

[mcatrophy]

Jay's Garage said: $38,000. 150 miles/charge. 470 pounds.

Give me a minute and I'll do the Canadian conversion.

$46,550 CAN. 240 km/charge. 213 kg. (Thanks, Google.)

I can do that conversion without Google.TOO MUCH....TOO LITTLE

I needed Google -- because I'm an American and everybody else in the world converts to our units because we Americans can't cope with anyone else's units -- but I agree with your opinion. What good is a toy that only goes 150 miles? Sheesh.

Fixed it for you .

 

[Uncle Hud]

^^^^^^ Thanks!

 

[hppants]

I think CNG is the only practical stop gap method. Nearly zero carbon based emissions, an unlimited supply (relatively speaking), basic infrastructure already established (pipelines), a simple (albeit even less efficient) conversion for nearly every ICE (gasoline powered), a realistic and safe fuel capacity, and it's less expensive (only to get even cheaper if supply/demand mean anything). With a high-efficiency air and oil filtration system, a CNG engine can be fitted with a welded oil pan. Far less maintenance = less solid waste.

The only disadvantage I can think of is the investment required to complete the infrastructure (bring CNG to a sufficient number of "pumps").

I agree with Infrared in that I can definitely do away with the noise. Eventually, ICEs will go away. But if it's going to be electricity, a MUCH better battery technology has to be developed.

 

[bluesdog]

 

[infrared]

I think CNG is the only practical stop gap method. The only disadvantage I can think of is the investment required to complete the infrastructure (bring CNG to a sufficient number of "pumps").I agree with Infrared in that I can definitely do away with the noise. Eventually, ICEs will go away. But if it's going to be electricity, a MUCH better battery technology has to be developed.

hppants,

Just hang in there, because the electric cars will "drive" that battery reasearch. Better batteries will come. Until then, I think a CNG (or sun-cracked hydrogen) powered fuel cell will do the job very well, with just enough batteries for half of the average trip, or some spirited riding, or whatever your taste may be. Call the fuel cell a "range extender" maybe, and it may only be needed at all on longer rides.. I envision a stack of batteries where the ICE once lived, and a fuel cell in the "gas tank" or a pannier.

@bluesdog, Yep, I want a Mr Fusion!

How much, and where can I get one?

Cheers,

Infrared