MSF ?

[warsw]

We have a couple staying in our RV Park that I have been having fun talking motorcycles with. During our talk the subject of the MSF safety course came up. Both have just finished taking the course. One shocking thing came up. They were telling me that they were taught to counter balance their bike when going through a corner. In other words (keeping the body upright while leaning the bike into the corner. This has always been true when riding a dirt bike and somewhat true at parking lot speeds on a street bike but just the apposite of what I have been taught and have been practicing for many, many, MANY years when riding a street bike at speed. I have always leaned into the turn with the idea of keeping the bike as up right as possible. Am I missing something or did they misunderstand what was being taught? Any MSF instructors out there? :dntknw:

 

[Bounce]

the MSF is at parking lot speeds. for low-speed, parking lot, and some commuter riding, it's a good skill to know. a lot of people can go fast and go in a straight line. watching someone slow ride with skill is a thing of beauty. anyone who's watched a cruiser parade duck-walk past them knows what i mean.

sure, it isn't a skill used in all riding, but it's a valid skill set. i take it (ERC @ $75) every other year just as a refresher.

for advanced skills there are other sources like Code's and other's track schools.

 

[radman]

Instruction seems as varied as the people giving it. One more or less tosses $250 into a crap shoot as to whether you'll get a good one or not. My wife got Snake Eyes..... :glare:

 

[2006FJR]

Both work and are effective. It is good to know how to do it or at least be aware that you are doing it.

 

[drewvanracer]

[SIZE=12pt]I just took to MSF class two weeks ago for grins and giggles. What was taught in my class was correct: stay vertical to the bike in turns with the exceptions being very slow speed turns and the swerve maneuver. [/SIZE]

 

[Kaelaria]

The manual is the same no matter who teaches it. We were tought correctly, by the manual - counter only in slow parking lot speeds.

 

[jestal]

+1 on the MSF being at parking lot speeds.

The technique of counterbalancing is very helpful in low speed situations and in the transition from stopped to low speed. Use it when pulling out from a side street stop sign to tighten the turn radius into the curb lane for example. Another place it comes into play is making a left turn into a side street or parking lot. Counterbalancing lets you really square off the corner late with a tight radius to avoid the pitfalls of turning too soon, "early apexing" because of that car rolling forward into the lane you were going to use to clip the corner, forcing you wide into the parking lane or shoulder. Counterbalancing is not just restricted to tricks around the cones in a parking lot.

If you've never tried it, try it when moving the bike around the garage. Leaning it way over really tightens the turning radius as most people notice when moving the bike in a restricted space. It can really tighten the turning radius for you on the street when necessary.

Don't poo poo the idea of practicing at parking lot speeds. Much of the control necessary to ride very slowly comes into play during all riding. I think the main benefit of a lot of the MSF instruction is to get the rider to learn the controls so that part is secondary and the rider can concentrate on riding instead of how to brake and throttle and use the clutch. Many new riders, especially, have more trouble operating and learning the controls and spend their attention to that instead of riding. After several hours of "forced" clutch/brake/throttle control at walking speeds the "controls" become second nature so the rider can concentrate on the riding part of the equation.

The main beef I have with MSF is their insistence on using all fingers on the levers for brake and clutch. I get along fine with one or two fingers and can slide the front tire with two fingers so have no need to let go of the grip to get all fingers onto the lever. Otherwise, even the worst instructor/course, can teach you something. Seat time around cones is always beneficial. One MSF instructor also had a lot of heartburn over me holding the throttle partially open in gear at low speeds and controlling speed by dragging the rear brake. Only way I know of to prevent the "lurchies" with the off/on/off throttle abruptness of the FJR and some other shaft drive bikes. He got over his hearburn when he saw how well it works but still did not condone it.....

 

[warsw]

+1 on the MSF being at parking lot speeds.
The technique of counterbalancing is very helpful in low speed situations and in the transition from stopped to low speed. Use it when pulling out from a side street stop sign to tighten the turn radius into the curb lane for example. Another place it comes into play is making a left turn into a side street or parking lot. Counterbalancing lets you really square off the corner late with a tight radius to avoid the pitfalls of turning too soon, "early apexing" because of that car rolling forward into the lane you were going to use to clip the corner, forcing you wide into the parking lane or shoulder. Counterbalancing is not just restricted to tricks around the cones in a parking lot.

If you've never tried it, try it when moving the bike around the garage. Leaning it way over really tightens the turning radius as most people notice when moving the bike in a restricted space. It can really tighten the turning radius for you on the street when necessary.

This is what I thought was being taught by the MSF but the couple in our park has taken that to mean all corners, at all speeds and have been preaching it to all their fellow riders to the point that they would stop a group ride if they saw someone leaning to the inside on a curve and instruct them to keep their body straight and just lean the bike (counterbalance).

Counterbalancing is something that I have always done at slow speeds (parking lot speed) but when out on the road I always lean to the inside.

 

[Geezer]

I know that whenever I take a course, regardless of what it is, I only hear some percentage of what is being taught and only remember about 10% of that.

 

[jestal]

This is what I thought was being taught by the MSF but the couple in our park has taken that to mean all corners, at all speeds and have been preaching it to all their fellow riders to the point that they would stop a group ride if they saw someone leaning to the inside on a curve and instruct them to keep their body straight and just lean the bike (counterbalance).

Hopefully no one listens to them.....

 

[Kaelaria]

There are always idiots that preach non-sense to those that know better. My wife came back from the course and I started yelling at her for blinding me with her high-beam behind me, at night. She insisted the instructors told her to 'always' ride with the high beam on. I know they aren't that stupid, but I know shes dumb enough to have interpreted something the wrong way. I said what's next, they told you to ride without a license plate?

 

[Wingman]

There are always idiots that preach non-sense to those that know better. My wife came back from the course and I started yelling at her for blinding me with her high-beam behind me, at night. She insisted the instructors told her to 'always' ride with the high beam on. I know they aren't that stupid, but I know shes dumb enough to have interpreted something the wrong way. I said what's next, they told you to ride without a license plate?

Nope, some of the instructors really are that stupid. I damn near killed a friend of mine when he followed me doing the exact same thing. After a discussion alongside the road he conceded that he was creating a dangerous situation by following me with the high beams on. You guessed it, he had just taken a MSF BRC the week before!

Most states have laws making this practice illegal. (I believe AR law states that headlights are to be dimmed when following or approaching within 500' of another vehicle. No mention whatsoever of it being dark or light outside.)

Most bikes have high beams bright enough to distract other (oncoming) drivers during the daytime, some are even bright enough to blind oncoming traffic. Advocating the use of high beams at all times is teaching the students to be rude and inconsiderate to other drivers.

I'm a bit biased because day or night I have trouble with being temporarily blinded by oncoming vehicles with their high beams on. For this reason, I ride with a tinted shield. (Tipped up at night, but ready pull down if the need arises.)

Sorry, rant mode off. Just one of the very few things the MSF teaches that I wholehartedly disagree with.

David

 

[red2kcbr]

I took the MSF way back in '73, at Tachikawa Air Force Base. I was just starting my riding life. I still remember and use a lot of that course. But I agree with Jestal about the 4-finger brake lever. That's just crazy with most modern bikes. And of course my son took it when he started riding, but he had an '03 CBR600RR, and sometimes one finger is enough to stop that bike. And not being as wise and worldly as his old man, he actually ARGUED with the instructor about it. Big mistake. Cost him a couple of points on the test.

Still, I recommend the MSF course to EVERY beginning street rider. I believe they provide an essential basis to build on. I'd like to see them use a more standard platform as a trainer, rather than a cruiser. The feet-forward, long wheel-base bike is not particularly easy for a beginner. The UJM riding position is much more natural, I believe.

I've never owned a cruiser, but I've passed quite a few.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Instruction seems as varied as the people giving it. One more or less tosses $250 into a crap shoot as to whether you'll get a good one or not. My wife got Snake Eyes..... :glare:

Yep, and that's too bad -- altho the curriculum is standard, the delivery isn't always. Maybe?, it'd be a good idea for prospective students to check around and ask for reccos.

A lot of info is covered (especially in beginner classes) and, often, not all of what's offered is properly received -- kinda: the most/best info for the majority of students for the time available. Sure, counterbalancing is covered -- it's easy to practice in a parking lot and they can go away with a learned skill. Proper cornering is considerably more difficult and, often, the instructor must settle for just getting the technique across. There may even be some discussion of hanging-off (to keep from grounding chassis hard-parts in corners) -- due to the proliferation of cruisers nowadays (the bikes they'll most likely be riding). As for cornering styles/techniques: there certainly are known effective methods that, once learned, work well for many riders -- but, there's been many instances of unconventional riding being effective, too (quote K. Roberts Sr., "If it works you can.").

As to the 4-fingers topic: it's not so much a braking issue as teaching proper useage of the right hand, i.e. -- rolling-off the throttle to apply the brake; releasing the brake and full hand back on the throttle to accelerate (you cant stop and go at the same time!). And, 4-fingers on the brake lever is an effective way to teach that to beginners -- and, a couple fingers on the throttle and a couple fingers on the brake is just a formula for disaster for beginners who know almost nothing about m/c operation (least of all the finer aspects of controls modulation). You 'old-dogs' out there can either try to gain a little insight from that concept -- or, keep doin' what your doin'....

As to the high-beam related comments and idiots -- yep, they've promoted high-beams all-the-time; and, yep, there are some idiots involved.

All-things-considered, it's certainly better than nothing -- but, it could be alot better. Competition may help -- if MSF wasn't 'the-only-game-in-town' -- and if licensing were stricter: those two things may help. Ultimately, motorcycle riding is not an easy set of tasks to learn and master -- some of us have spent most of our lives trying to be just..... 'a decent rider'. :dribble:

 

[E1Allen]

I know that whenever I take a course, regardless of what it is, I only hear some percentage of what is being taught and only remember about 10% of that.

Thats because you are old and deaf...

Parking lot speeds sure, but it sounds like they mistook what they were taught in the class.

 

[Kaelaria]

There are always idiots that preach non-sense to those that know better. My wife came back from the course and I started yelling at her for blinding me with her high-beam behind me, at night. She insisted the instructors told her to 'always' ride with the high beam on. I know they aren't that stupid, but I know shes dumb enough to have interpreted something the wrong way. I said what's next, they told you to ride without a license plate?

Nope, some of the instructors really are that stupid.

David

I only say that because I had the same instructors the week prior to her and I know they didn't teach that in my class. They said they use them during the day.

 

[Captain B]

OK, so shoot me! I am a fearless defender of the MSF courses - basic and experienced. I carry business cards of the local course here-bouts (Tallahassee area). Everytime someone asks me about riding or my bike - they get a card. Head guy is hte former head of the FHP motorcycle force, and his chief assistant is the former head of FHP. They are top notch. Like everything else - just about - in life what you learn and what you get out of learning is a very individual thing. Basic gets you started. Butt-time and riding with others who are more experienced than you will get you a lot. I have adapted much of what I learned in Basic MSF from being around others - take the good, leave the bad. I think its just basic human nature that some instructors will say things that might not be quite right. I have taken the Basic and Experienced course here, and not once did anyone say anything about using high beams - day or night. Makes no sense to me at all, and obviously not to any of the folks who teach the course around here. No words can express how grateful I am to all the information I get from the experienced riders on this forum, but I wouldn't say bad word one about the MSF courses I have taken. Like someone else mentioned above - I plan to re-take the ERC every 2-3 years (you can always pick up something new), but I also plan to take one of the SST track courses also. Anything that will make me a better rider. And, thanks to everyone here that reminded me that I need to get into a parking lot soon to re-learn my slow skills.

 

[CAJW]

+1 on the MSF being at parking lot speeds.
The technique of counterbalancing is very helpful in low speed situations and in the transition from stopped to low speed. Use it when pulling out from a side street stop sign to tighten the turn radius into the curb lane for example. Another place it comes into play is making a left turn into a side street or parking lot. Counterbalancing lets you really square off the corner late with a tight radius to avoid the pitfalls of turning too soon, "early apexing" because of that car rolling forward into the lane you were going to use to clip the corner, forcing you wide into the parking lane or shoulder. Counterbalancing is not just restricted to tricks around the cones in a parking lot.

If you've never tried it, try it when moving the bike around the garage. Leaning it way over really tightens the turning radius as most people notice when moving the bike in a restricted space. It can really tighten the turning radius for you on the street when necessary.

Don't poo poo the idea of practicing at parking lot speeds. Much of the control necessary to ride very slowly comes into play during all riding. I think the main benefit of a lot of the MSF instruction is to get the rider to learn the controls so that part is secondary and the rider can concentrate on riding instead of how to brake and throttle and use the clutch. Many new riders, especially, have more trouble operating and learning the controls and spend their attention to that instead of riding. After several hours of "forced" clutch/brake/throttle control at walking speeds the "controls" become second nature so the rider can concentrate on the riding part of the equation.

The main beef I have with MSF is their insistence on using all fingers on the levers for brake and clutch. I get along fine with one or two fingers and can slide the front tire with two fingers so have no need to let go of the grip to get all fingers onto the lever. Otherwise, even the worst instructor/course, can teach you something. Seat time around cones is always beneficial. One MSF instructor also had a lot of heartburn over me holding the throttle partially open in gear at low speeds and controlling speed by dragging the rear brake. Only way I know of to prevent the "lurchies" with the off/on/off throttle abruptness of the FJR and some other shaft drive bikes. He got over his hearburn when he saw how well it works but still did not condone it.....

I'm probably going to regret stating this, but as an MSF instructor, many times people take what is said literally with no common sense applied, hence always riding with the Hi beam on. Regarding parking lot speeds, when students complete the course, I remind them that (if they passed) they have demonstrated that day that they can satisfactorily control the motorcycle at parking lot speeds. Then comes the warning that 70 mph on the freeway is a whole nother' ball game and admonish them all to practice in parking lots and deserted streets at low speeds, gradually working up to higher speeds and more technical roads. On the finger braking issue, I too have owned sport bikes that one or two is enough, but we have to teach the cirriculum as printed and not deviate from it to stay consistent. As far as being told not to drag the rear brake, that is a personal opinion as I do not remember seeing anything in the range cards that prohibits dragging the rear brake, especially when performing in the "U turn box" (basically doing a figure 8). Heck, I sometimes drag the rear brake during demos when the bike is too high geared (Buell Blast) or the engine is not fully warmed up and needs a little help by slipping the clutch. IMHO, if a rider gets through the maneuver smoothly by dragging the rear brake, then she/he has demonstrated advanced (for their level) clutch control and should get a pat on the back. As with anything in life where something is being taught by **** sapiens, YMMV! Other instructors sound off, I know you're out there!

 

[warsw]

I truly did not want this thread to turn into a MSF bashing thread. I feel that the couple, in our park, misunderstood the use of counterbalancing but before I started to correct someone else I wanted to make sure that I didn't have it wrong. I do think that the MSF does a lot of good and there is something for everyone to learn at one of their courses.

My wife and I are talking about taking one of their courses. For me after 40yrs of riding it is about time and for my wife this is a first in showing an interested in riding her own bike. This will be soooo cool.