NASCAR vs AMA racing

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timk

timk
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My take on NASCAR vs AMA racing. After witnessing the puking of a very large motor,givin enough time to change same at the Daytona debacle I have two thoughts. I don't know what make will win the title in NASCAR. I know the make that will win AMA superbike title. Think I'll watch NASCAR this year,

 
My take on NASCAR vs AMA racing. After witnessing the puking of a very large motor,givin enough time to change same at the Daytona debacle I have two thoughts. I don't know what make will win the title in NASCAR. I know the make that will win AMA superbike title. Think I'll watch NASCAR this year,
Yeah, I was at the race and when I heard that DeSalvo's Ducati team was allowed to change the motor and restart the race I was thinking he would have to start at the back of the field, right? Nope. He started in the 3rd spot on the front row which is where he was at when they red flagged the race for the front tire issues. I was telling my brother, "Wouldn't it be something if he won this thing." Sure enough, he did.

In my opinion it's not right. But it's the AMA way I guess.

Dave

 
the difference is that the make of the bike is really that make. in nascar is a faux aluminum shell over a fab'd up tube frame and then stickered and painted to appear like something sorta like what it's claiming to be.

 
DeSalvo's Ducati team used the rules to their advantage. there may be a rule admended because of it, but it was perfectly leagal. every other team did something besides swap out an engine, because they didn't need to. those last 15 laps were the best racing i've seen in a very long time.

cadman

 
DeSalvo's Ducati team used the rules to their advantage.
I think I heard the TV announcer say the rule (allowing engine swaps) was new this year...?

...those last 15 laps were the best racing i've seen in a very long time.
It appeared DiSalvo was "sand-bagging" -- he ran up-front at the beginning of the "15-Lap Sprint to the Finish" (checking the others speed...?) and then pulled off (something about being worried about his front tire...?). He then, immediately, caught up with the front runners again -- but, just followed them around until he roared past to take the checkers (within sight of the finish).

 
Auto racing is swimming with the sharks. Bike racing is swimming with the sharks without the cage. As is riding on the street...

 
Having a new engine couldn't possibly hurt. Afew extra ponies makes a big diff.

 
the difference is that the make of the bike is really that make. in nascar is a faux aluminum shell over a fab'd up tube frame and then stickered and painted to appear like something sorta like what it's claiming to be.
Well said! And THAT right there is the major reason I no longer watch NASCAR. It was awesome in the '60s/'70s with real production cars with a roll cage and a hot engine, but if they going to fab a car completely from scratch, why not make a REAL race car?

Plus everyone knows AMA racing is now just a podunk backwater series. I was at the track this week and I just went to the vendor tents. I didn't bother with the races anymore.

 
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NASCAR is like watching dinosaurs run around and around. Big whoop. Carburetors, low tech electronics, monster engines, no racing in the rain. At least bring the technology into the 20th century. AMA is another case. At least it seems to be better than when DMG first took over and tried to run motorcycles like they were NASCAR. Oh well, at least there is still WSBK and MotoGP.

 
Having a new engine couldn't possibly hurt. Afew extra ponies makes a big diff.
Fresh motor with 42% more displacement couldnt hurt either.

1.5 hours standing in the hot florida sun left me wondering ( maybe the conspiracy theorist in me) if the race was engineered to assist a certain manufacturer to win. I feel ducati builds a fine bike , I am not bashing them, but this whole thing stinks. I doubt I will ride back down next year. Maybe a ride in the year up to indy for motoGP instead.

 
FNG is "wondering... if the race was engineered to assist a certain manufacturer to win." Boy, are you a cynic! How can you even think such a thing? Just because a manufacturer gets 50% more engine to make them competitive to begin with doesn't mean there is any favoritism going on, does it? If you wanted to build a racing single, how big would they let it be? Kinda reminds me of back in the day (yea, I'm that old) when Harley got to run its old flathead motor against smaller British singles, just to keep HD on the track.

NASCAR clearly manipulates the race to someone's advantage. If one "brand" wins too often, the rules are tweeked to slow them down. This is ridiculous, of course, since all the cars are essentially the same except for the grill and headlight decals, but we have to get every "brand" on the podium an equal number of times. The l-o-n-g yellow cautions give them a chance to bunch up the field so drivers who are almost a full lap down can catch up, and anyone can get gas and fresh tires without losing position. This punishes the driver who might have pulled out a big lead because now he is just another car in the pack. It punishes a team that has a good pitstop strategy. It also allows comericial breaks, sometimes several, to keep the TV people happy. Then there is another pet peeve: big-name Sprint Cup drivers racing in the support classes (truck and Nationwide). Why don't we get to see talented up-and-coming drivers who are busting a gut to move up in the sport?

OK, Pete, settle down - deep breaths. Nobody make you watch (and I don't) MotoGP and F1 are almost here. Should be a fun season for both.

pete

 
FNG is "wondering... if the race was engineered to assist a certain manufacturer to win." Boy, are you a cynic! How can you even think such a thing? Just because a manufacturer gets 50% more engine to make them competitive to begin with doesn't mean there is any favoritism going on, does it? If you wanted to build a racing single, how big would they let it be? Kinda reminds me of back in the day (yea, I'm that old) when Harley got to run its old flathead motor against smaller British singles, just to keep HD on the track.

NASCAR clearly manipulates the race to someone's advantage. If one "brand" wins too often, the rules are tweeked to slow them down. This is ridiculous, of course, since all the cars are essentially the same except for the grill and headlight decals, but we have to get every "brand" on the podium an equal number of times. The l-o-n-g yellow cautions give them a chance to bunch up the field so drivers who are almost a full lap down can catch up, and anyone can get gas and fresh tires without losing position. This punishes the driver who might have pulled out a big lead because now he is just another car in the pack. It punishes a team that has a good pitstop strategy. It also allows comericial breaks, sometimes several, to keep the TV people happy. Then there is another pet peeve: big-name Sprint Cup drivers racing in the support classes (truck and Nationwide). Why don't we get to see talented up-and-coming drivers who are busting a gut to move up in the sport?

OK, Pete, settle down - deep breaths. Nobody make you watch (and I don't) MotoGP and F1 are almost here. Should be a fun season for both.

pete
Agreed, I was referring to the tire change, Just enough time to change all the tires to allow a ducati team time to change the eitire engine, and still not go to the back of the pack.

 
Boy, a bunch of cynics in the bunch, but I guess thats human nature to a degree. The new rule was simply that Teams were now allowed to work on their bikes during a red flag period. Previously, they couldn't. Did anyone envision an engine swap during a red flag? I don't think so. Typically red flag periods last anyhwere from 5-20 minutues. This was a very unique situation and I truly believe both Dunlop and AMA Pro Racing had the best interests of the riders in mind....did you see the way Eslick crashed? There may be an amendment to the rule that limits what they can and cannot do during a red flag, but thats how rules get defined....through experience.

Overall, I'm very pleased with the way AMA Pro has turned itself around after the disastrous Edmondson era. Nothing is perfect, there is always room for improvement, the biggest thing is realizing that and working with the stake holders (racers and fans) to make it better. I think they could do a little more to get feedback from Fans, but as I said, overall I think they're doing a good job...and will continue to improve. You can't disagree that the racing is much better than what it has been for many years. :clapping:

I'll continue to support AMA Pro Racing...as I think by taking the emotional step to not do so only results in slow death. We need more sponsors, and the only way that is going to happen is to get more bodies at the races.

Just my .02. I'll go back to work now.

Randy

 
First, from the AMA's apparently unread rulebook

2.23 Red Flag Stops and Restart Procedures...

f. All machines brought to a pit box for service and approved for the

restart will start at the back of the grid behind all other machines

that did not require service, These riders re-grid positions will be

determined by their race position the lap preceding the red-fagged

lap and will be gridded in that order at the back of the feld
I don't blame Ducati for gridding in 3rd. If the damn AMA can't read their rules and run their races, then screw 'em.

It appeared DiSalvo was "sand-bagging" -- he ran up-front at the beginning of the "15-Lap Sprint to the Finish" (checking the others speed...?) and then pulled off (something about being worried about his front tire...?). He then, immediately, caught up with the front runners again -- but, just followed them around until he roared past to take the checkers (within sight of the finish).
I got that impression, too. While the Yamahas seemed able to draft past him in the tri-oval, I got the impression that he knew he could motor past *.* when he needed to. As mentioned, a 42% displacement advantage and the bike makes more power bone stock than a DSB 600 can, and WAY more torque. Last year I was surprised they didn't win more races with the 848, but now that DiSalvo and Holden are on them it might be a Ducati sweep.
 
Hell I would think anyone would rather start in 3rd than the back of the pack. But there are rules you know.

Not Ducatis fault, but its a shallow victory if your given the win on a silver platter.

 
Again, sorry for being away guys, but, gotta pay the bills.

1st - Randy - Thanks for saving me a lot of key strokes. Your comments are spot on

2nd - Regarding this whole argument over displacement, get over it. If the only thing you want to look at is displacement, I'll line up any 600 off of the showroom floor and put it against any 1000+cc harley any day of the week. When comparing a twin to an inline 4, cc's are not apples to apples. And, in case no one noticed, a privateer Yamaha won the pole. If it turns out that the Ducati ends up with a performance advantage week in and week out, they will probably make an adjustment (add weight).

3rd - There was no conspiracy. Ducati acted within the rules that every other team must abide by. They were not granted any special favors - the followed the rules to the letter. The reference to the rule about bikes being service must go to the back of the grid is meaningless because EVERY bike was serviced during the red flag (they all got new tires).

4th - The reason for the long delay was based on a lack of communication for a situation that no one could have predicted. Contrary to popular belief, the race was not stopped simply because of Eslick's crash. In fact, they couldn't find anything wrong with the tire that Danny was on when he crashed. The race was stopped because multiple competitors had blistered front tires after the pit stops. Additionally, some of the racers were going to try to do a full race on 1 tire and Dunlop had no confidence that the one and only tire that was permitted at the start of the race could go the entire distance. So, the AMA, at the request of Dunlop, pulled the red flag to make sure all of the competitors changed the front tires. Here's where the communication breakdown took place. The communications to the teams was not clearly understood by all. They said mandatory red flag for a mandatory front tire change. Some of the teams simply took a spare front that they had on their rack and put the new tire on and put the warmer on it. What they failed to clearly communicate was that they couldn't just put a new front tire on, rather, they had to get a new front from Dunlop which was a different compound from what was used to start the race. So, the race would have restarted sooner, but, when they saw that some of the teams didn't put the new compound tire on, they had to wait for them to dismount the wheel, get it over to Dunlop, and put the new tire on. Dunlop then had to check every bike to ensure they all had the same compound tires on. With this being a spec tire series, all competitors have to buy tires. No freebies. Factory Yamaha pays the same as Joe Privateer. However, Dunlop did not charge any of the competitors for the new front tire. So, that all being said, they didn't have any test data that assured them that the tire would go more than 15 laps under those conditions, so, that is why the race was shortened

5th - DiSalvo did not pull off. He let the lead group go by as he felt something funky on the bike. After sitting there and watching a machine being torn apart and having a new motor thrown in and then going out on a tire that you have never been on, can't blame him for being a bit paranoid. Once the leaders got by, he rejoined them at the back of that pack. When you get on the banking at Daytona, it is easy to make up time when you get into the draft if you've got a decent machine under you. His lap time on that lap was only 1 sec slower than his fastest lap.

The racing after the red flag was flat-out awesome. The ending could have been tragic. Glad no one was seriously hurt (Westby has a broken thumb).

The Superbike races were great, also. I think it's going to be a great battle this year between the Suzukis and the Yamahas (well, ok, the 1 Yamaha). Would be nice to see the BMWs mixing it up in the front and i'm keeping my fingers crossed that Attack/Cycle World can get the sponsorship to run the rest of the series so EBoz can be thrown into the mix on the new Kawasaki.

Aside from just EBoz in superbike, hoping Attach/Cycle Wrold gets support so JD Beach can continue in Daytona Sportbike (kid did a fantastic job in his first DSB race) and also hoping that the Project 1 team can get the funding to do the rest of the series. Would suck to see Jake Zemke and that missle sitting on the sidelines.

 
Think I'm jus going to go fishing.. ;) The walleye are coming upstream and A plate full of them is far superior to this debate. :lol:

 
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