Need More Brakes!

[user 213]

I would suggest a few things -

You felt the rear ABS engage, but weight transfer is part of the braking equation too. Almost certainly the front ABS did not engage. It takes a lot of brake to engage the front, generally well past the comfort level of most riders if they haven't done it in practice. And you will feel it in the lever.

The back went light, and the ABS engaged as the weight shifted off that tire and to the front tire.

SS lines have zero impact on braking effectiveness. They do allow better modulation and they do transfer more of your lever squeeze to the brake pads w/o loss to expanding the rubber lines, but they won't help you stop in a shorter time. FWIW, there is so much line in the ABS system, and the ABS valve block, that SS lines on a ABS FJR don't feel like the rock solid lines on a non-ABS bike. There is a finite amount of braking friction available. Changing the lines won't change that.

I have engaged the front, (and rear), ABS in traffic. I did something stupid, looking at the map on the tank bag, looked up and the tailgate of the PU in front of me was getting very large. I grabbed and stabbed in a less than smooth manner and stopped well before the impact point. (at the time, I didn't think I would) I've also engaged both ABS on snow/ice many times. (not recommended) It works seamlessly and allowed me to stop the bike in the upright position. It's very difficult not to engage the ABS on snow/ice.

It's difficult to practice front ABS engagement. No one wants to toss the bike. If you're going strait, and the wheel locked, it would be recoverable. With the ABS, it's not going to lock. You know this from an intellectual standpoint, but it's not always easy to convince the right hand of that. Try anyway. What you will learn is that there is more front brake there than you previously thought. If you succeed in activating the ABS, you'll learn what that feels like, and just how much shorter stops can be if it's needed.

Like a lot of things motorcycle related, often it's practice we need more than 'upgrades'. Try the practice first, it's cheaper.

 

[Cdogman]

If your ABS is 'engaged' -- you have maximum braking -- the electroncs/ABS computer is limiting any more braking.It would be interesting to know if anyone has performed a "stoppie" with an ABS equipped FJR (I doubt it?). One of the, across the board, complaints with ABS systems (in general) is a too low a threshold of onset operation -- leaving more braking on the table (so-to-speak). I think the designing engineers take into account 'slippery surfaces' and the performance then may suffer on perfectly clean, grippy, surfaces?

It seems? -- more riders are more than willing to give up performance for perceived safety...?

I have performed a stoppie of sorts and posted here and on the other (feej) forum about it at the time.

This was back when I was taking my 06AE ABS to a parking lot several times a week to practice (I was bored and this is fun to me).

I can tell you first hand there is a TREMENDOUS difference between the stopping power when the ABS kicks in. I have had a panic moment a few years ago with I over cooked a straight and was barreling down on a turn WAY!! to fast (20mph turn and coming in at trips +). I did not think I was gonna get her hauled down in time for entry. I did not feel I had adequate braking and the abs was fully engaged.. and felt very very early (course the but pucker factor affected my perception too)

There are two major factors involved.

1. Front tire pressure. I was testing a new set of PR2's and was complaining about the Front grip (ABS Kicking in without proper stopping force). Per Ashe, I tried removing 3PSI and retesting.. WORLD of difference

2. Proper braking technique..

A) I found when I "Grabbed a handful" and smashed the lever closed I did not let the front tire load up properly and the ABS kicked in earlier to allow for the reduced traction brought on by my simulated panic move.

B) Swift, but gradual aggressive braking made a difference in the ABS kicking in at a point when the rear tire left the ground.. I did not do a full on stoppie but I could consistently get the back tire off the ground 3-4 inches for the last few feet.

As MadMike states, Go to a parking lot.. I practiced enough that my muscle memroy response is now more correct to acheiving the correct results under panic sitatuions. I can imporve much I am sure.. But I can tell you it is you more than the bike..

Just sharing

 

[SCRider]

I was 2-3 blocks from home after work this past week, and a cager left-turning in front of me almost got me. I grabbed all the brakes I could front and back, but it just wasn't what I needed. Granted the bike is 640#, plus my additional 200#, but there just wasn't enough power. I managed to JUST get by, but I really want to get more braking power.

Seeing this thread this morning finally made me go out and get some Dot 4 fluid and bleed my brakes. Like you, I've always felt like the front brakes didn't feel very strong but the back brakes felt great. I always assumed that it's because the back brakes are linked and you can put a lot more force on the brake pedal with your foot.

WRONG! I had a huge shot of air come out of the right front caliper right away. All the other calipers were fine. Wow, what a difference! Now I believe I can do a stoppie without your governor's forearms :yahoo: . Never had any brake work done on it so I guess it came from the factory this way, unless the dealer has to deal with the brakes during assembly.

Go bleed your brakes if you haven't done so already!

 

[k7lvo]

If your ABS is 'engaged' -- you have maximum braking -- the electroncs/ABS computer is limiting any more braking.It would be interesting to know if anyone has performed a "stoppie" with an ABS equipped FJR (I doubt it?). One of the, across the board, complaints with ABS systems (in general) is a too low a threshold of onset operation -- leaving more braking on the table (so-to-speak). I think the designing engineers take into account 'slippery surfaces' and the performance then may suffer on perfectly clean, grippy, surfaces?

It seems? -- more riders are more than willing to give up performance for perceived safety...?

I have performed a stoppie of sorts and posted here and on the other (feej) forum about it at the time.

This was back when I was taking my 06AE ABS to a parking lot several times a week to practice (I was bored and this is fun to me).

I can tell you first hand there is a TREMENDOUS difference between the stopping power when the ABS kicks in. I have had a panic moment a few years ago with I over cooked a straight and was barreling down on a turn WAY!! to fast (20mph turn and coming in at trips +). I did not think I was gonna get her hauled down in time for entry. I did not feel I had adequate braking and the abs was fully engaged.. and felt very very early (course the but pucker factor affected my perception too)

My experience (mostly in cars, thankfully) has always been that the best practiced modulation goes right out the window when the object in front of you is getting larger very quickly. I come down on the brakes for all I'm worth until the vehicle comes to a stop. Frankly, I don't think that I'm much different than most - even those who beat their chests and talk about how much faster they can stop without ABS than they can with it.

There are two major factors involved.
1. Front tire pressure. I was testing a new set of PR2's and was complaining about the Front grip (ABS Kicking in without proper stopping force). Per Ashe, I tried removing 3PSI and retesting.. WORLD of difference

2. Proper braking technique..

A) I found when I "Grabbed a handful" and smashed the lever closed I did not let the front tire load up properly and the ABS kicked in earlier to allow for the reduced traction brought on by my simulated panic move.

A friend of my crashed in a corner a couple of years ago on a (non-ABS) VFR. She was unfamiliar with the road, and surprised when the BMW (with ABS) in front of her hit the brakes as it entered the corner. So, just as she entered the corner she "slammed" on the brakes - both front and rear. The front tire locked momentarily, at least, and down she went. I've got pictures of the skid marks. They're not real distinct, but it looks like a "splash" of rubber where the brake locked. We figure that she would have been fine if she had been just slightly more gradual on the brakes.

 

[Cdogman]

I don think I am faster without ABS.. Exactly the opposite.. I think it is a great tool to make up for human reactions.

What I was trying to share was I am attempting to train the "Knee Jerk" reaction out of myself.. Target Fixation is another one, rolling on the throttle when scared instead of breaking. Push the bar and ride the bike during a pucker moment.. and so on

It can be done,, many have done it..

As MadMike said and I will attest to.. Practice,, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and so on

Then it becomes more automatic.

I think parking lot practice is fun.. Here in Utah there are thousands of empty lots during the week.. Think Mormon Church parking lots.. They only gots peeps mostly on sundays..

 

[madmike2]

I think parking lot practice is fun.. Here in Utah there are thousands of empty lots during the week.. Think Mormon Church parking lots.. They only gots peeps mostly on sundays..

Out here we have plenty of unused shopping centers with large parking lots. Easy to use on summer week nights or weekend mornings. Muscle memory: It's a good thing!

BTW, they work well for figure eight practice and circles, too. If you're really clever you could go to a local sports store and buy some small cones and map out the parking lot course a la' MSF.

 

[Cdogman]

I think parking lot practice is fun.. Here in Utah there are thousands of empty lots during the week.. Think Mormon Church parking lots.. They only gots peeps mostly on sundays..

Out here we have plenty of unused shopping centers with large parking lots. Easy to use on summer week nights or weekend mornings. Muscle memory: It's a good thing!

BTW, they work well for figure eight practice and circles, too. If you're really clever you could go to a local sports store and buy some small cones and map out the parking lot course a la' MSF.

I dont want to transport cones to and from the lot.. I thought about it. I use the parking lines, trees, and planters as barriers. I found trying to miss a planter or falling off a good motivator to look where you want to go and the threat of a slow speed getoff a good motivator for training out "Target Fixation"

I did get to the point I can push feej down beneath me (motocross style) at or near idle and drag the inside peg on the ground in a circle. I little more dicey one an AE, but is can be done. That is FUN!! You know it cannot turn any sharper and BUUAAOOWWWW.. Giter done! Not as much fun as hitting the perfect line in a turn.. but hey.. it is amusing and can be done blocks from the house. Kinda like a motorcycle version of a quicky..

OK.. Perhaps TMI.. Nevermind.. A real quicky is of course better.. But with my and my wifes schedule sometimes all I can do get a little "peg" at lunch time. Kinda rhymes with leg huh,

OK.. I am, going to stop here. This post is getting out of control

 

[black cherry]

Alot of good information has been given buy people with much more knowledge than I have, but, I think it's a tad simpler than braded lines, 3 lbs of preasure, ect, ect.

Yes, make sure that there is not air in your lines from the factory, if they will leave nuts and bolts loose, they'll not bleed your lines.

As for tires, I just don't see that much difference in a PR2 vs. a stickier Power in changing stopping power enough to make a difference.

I think what happened is this guy had a car pull out in front of him and he (1) about craped his pants (2) possibly grabed the back brake first, ( I think this would shorten the fronts inital threashold for abs to kick in ) (3) Possibly grabed the front too hard at first, ( but grabing the rear first may negate this ) and (4) and this I think is the main thing, crap was in slow motion and it seemed like it took longer to stop than it did.

Ever heard someone discribing an accident, " everything was in slow motion "

Check the lines for air, but other than that, you just experienced another day in the life of a motorcycle rider.

Be safe! They ARE trying to KILL us!

 

[Cdogman]

Alot of good information has been given buy people with much more knowledge than I have, but, I think it's a tad simpler than braded lines, 3 lbs of preasure, ect, ect.
"snip"

Check the lines for air, but other than that, you just experienced another day in the life of a motorcycle rider.

Be safe! They ARE trying to KILL us!

It is far less simple than braided lines and 3lb of pressure and so on... Understanding your bike and learning from an experience is the best course of action.. Posting about the experience here and taking feedback for what it is worth to try to learn is a noble and intelligent thing to do IMHO.

Check the lines for air and other than that?? That reads like "Hey dude, **** happens and you got lucky, carry on" Dont try to get better,, just rely on dumb luck forever.. That works for some.. and some of those it works for are actually still alive.

Riding a motorcycle is a sport, and like a sport requires a certain amount of understanding and practice.

Cliff climbing is the same. and you can just go out there and start up any old cliff.. sure.. that does not make it a good idea. To further exacerbate the problem would be to do something like "Almost fall off the cliff" and go "Whoa dude.. that was scary, hope it does not happen again" -OR- try to learn from it.. learn about proper use of the gear, ropes, harneses and so on.

Now, which one of the above scenarios sounds like the best course to preserve life and limb

I am not a safety preacher type. But I will jump in when someone tries to do the opposite and propagate "Whoa dude" attitude

Jes Sayin

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

It is far less simple than braided lines and 3lb of pressure and so on... Check the lines for air and other than that?? That reads like "Hey dude, **** happens and you got lucky, carry on" Dont try to get better,, just rely on dumb luck forever.. That works for some.. and some of those it works for are actually still alive.

Riding a motorcycle is a sport, and like a sport requires a certain amount of understanding and practice.

The last couple comments sound alot like: "Blaming the Victim."?

The O.P. asked:

....but there just wasn't enough power. I managed to JUST get by, but I really want to get more braking power. I had the rear lever pushed hard (enough to feel the ABS pulsing), and I pulled really hard on the front lever,but it just did not seem to have as much front bite as I would have wanted, or as much as other bikes I have.

I am a fairly experienced rider and I prefer to have more control over the front brake than this event allowed.

Is there a braided brake line upgrade or a better pad composition that might help this? Any other ideas or input would be appreciated. I need more front braking power.

He did say, "Any other ideas or input would be appreciated." I may be wrong, but I think he was referring to brake hardware (ABS computer software?) -- not, "You need to get better skills"...? (That may be another thread...?)

 

[Cdogman]

It is far less simple than braided lines and 3lb of pressure and so on... Check the lines for air and other than that?? That reads like "Hey dude, **** happens and you got lucky, carry on" Dont try to get better,, just rely on dumb luck forever.. That works for some.. and some of those it works for are actually still alive.

Riding a motorcycle is a sport, and like a sport requires a certain amount of understanding and practice.

The last couple comments sound alot like: "Blaming the Victim."?

The O.P. asked:

....but there just wasn't enough power. I managed to JUST get by, but I really want to get more braking power. I had the rear lever pushed hard (enough to feel the ABS pulsing), and I pulled really hard on the front lever,but it just did not seem to have as much front bite as I would have wanted, or as much as other bikes I have.

I am a fairly experienced rider and I prefer to have more control over the front brake than this event allowed.

Is there a braided brake line upgrade or a better pad composition that might help this? Any other ideas or input would be appreciated. I need more front braking power.

He did say, "Any other ideas or input would be appreciated." I may be wrong, but I think he was referring to brake hardware (ABS computer software?) -- not, "You need to get better skills"...? (That may be another thread...?)

OK, I will bite.

What "Victim" are you referring to. Did someone get hurt?

If someone comes on here and asks if they need a better steering wheel on their car because there is a shimy in the wheel at 55 should we limit our answers to the steering wheel? Or does it make more sense to explore other possible trains of thought..

Paying attention to my post would lead one to believe I was not speaking to Andy in my response as I seemed to be quoting a poster above me. I would have to go look but that seems to be the case..

Lets keep up ladies and gentlemen LOL

 

[TruWrecks]

There are two things that will improve the braking of an ABS bike. A softer front tire, and propley set up suspension. The tire will give you more grip. The suspension will reduce dive on the front and lift on the rear. HaulinAsh did a great writeup on suspension.

You can change to a more agressive break pad, but that will only make the ABS kick in sooner.

 

[ahchiu]

I upgraded to HH pads and they have a harder bite, some says they wear the rotors sooner but I rather replace rotors than replace the front end IMO

when I do replace the rotors I will installl Galfer Wave rotors.

Marcus

 

[blakebird]

Your brakes are fine, the ABS was doing it's job.

If you'd been able to grab as much brake as you wanted without it...you'd have been on your head.

 

[skifrik]

As I undertand the system, ...applies the ABS ...the maximum pressure allowed ...to maintain "optimum" stopping power. Is my basic understanding of the system faulty?

I don't know...(remember, I said -- "I think"?)? I'm certainly no expert (especially on ABS -- altho I've experimented, some, with it). But, maybe?, the underlined excerpts tell the tale? maximum 'allowed' may not be "maximum"? and "optimum" may not be 'preferred/best'?

I have heard from several in the BMW crowd that BMW is offering ABS 'defeat' switches on most of their later/current models and, they tell me, "If you really want to stop -- you turn off the ABS."

My comment about the general un-happiness (industry-wide) with 'too-early-onset' ABS is a valid one, I believe?

The reason BMW is offering a "defeat" switch is because on their bikes if the rear wheel were to come off the ground, it would make you lose your front brake with the ABS on.

 

[black cherry]

Alot of good information has been given buy people with much more knowledge than I have, but, I think it's a tad simpler than braded lines, 3 lbs of preasure, ect, ect.
"snip"

Check the lines for air, but other than that, you just experienced another day in the life of a motorcycle rider.

Be safe! They ARE trying to KILL us!

It is far less simple than braided lines and 3lb of pressure and so on... Understanding your bike and learning from an experience is the best course of action.. Posting about the experience here and taking feedback for what it is worth to try to learn is a noble and intelligent thing to do IMHO.

Check the lines for air and other than that?? That reads like "Hey dude, **** happens and you got lucky, carry on" Dont try to get better,, just rely on dumb luck forever.. That works for some.. and some of those it works for are actually still alive.

Riding a motorcycle is a sport, and like a sport requires a certain amount of understanding and practice.

Cliff climbing is the same. and you can just go out there and start up any old cliff.. sure.. that does not make it a good idea. To further exacerbate the problem would be to do something like "Almost fall off the cliff" and go "Whoa dude.. that was scary, hope it does not happen again" -OR- try to learn from it.. learn about proper use of the gear, ropes, harneses and so on.

Now, which one of the above scenarios sounds like the best course to preserve life and limb

I am not a safety preacher type. But I will jump in when someone tries to do the opposite and propagate "Whoa dude" attitude

Jes Sayin

Are you mad because your bike doen't have a clutch? :blink:

I never said that WE should'nt practice evasive manuvers, of strive to be better, more alert riders.

I only said, pertaining to "it's a tad simpler than that" that I don't think braided lines will help that much and that I don't think the bike malfuntioned. I think the only thing mechanically that needs done is to make sure his brake lines are void of air pockets.

And where did Dude come from Dude?

One more thing, that really must have been urine in your wheeties this morning.

 

[Bustanut joker]

***!! Another reason not to buy one of these pigs...

I tell ya somebody outa start a lawsuit against ahamaY!! Damn junk ***, **** bike anyways :angry:

:jester:

 

[RadioHowie]

***!! Another reason not to buy one of these pigs...
I tell ya somebody outa start a lawsuit against ahamaY!! Damn junk ***, **** bike anyways :angry:

:jester:

Where the hell you been?

 

[Bustanut joker]

Where the hell you been?

Ummmm.. Would ya believe stealing money from Train fanatics? **** I worked twenty hour days every day last week ( poor kid of mine did a couple all nighters to keep 'em happy) just to make a buck offen 'em Got me a few thousand in inventory now ya putz.

'sides what the *** you care pisswistle?

:****:

:jester:

 

[RadioHowie]

Where the hell you been?

Ummmm.. Would ya believe stealing money from Train fanatics? **** I worked twenty hour days every day last week ( poor kid of mine did a couple all nighters to keep 'em happy) just to make a buck offen 'em Got me a few thousand in inventory now ya putz.

'sides what the *** you care pisswistle?

:****:

:jester:

'cuz even tho I'm an *******, YOU make me look like a saint!