New cruise control get flaky with time/miles

[rgmax]

I just finished an Audiovox install on my 07 a couple of weeks ago. I had the exact same problem with the cruise ether abruptly shutting off or sometimes not engaging. The abrupt shut off was usually in concert with some additional throttle being added because of a hill, using the accel button, etc.

I was not too happy with the beaded chain connection, but since it seemed to be what everyone else was using I went with it.

What I found to be the source of my problem, was that the beaded chain/servo cable connector was getting hung up in the narrow region between the fuel injection hardware leading down to the throttle pulley.

Visually everything looked good, I only noticed the connector hanging up when I pulled on the CC servo cable itself using some needle nose pliers.

I am using a curved piece of hard plastic tubing as a cable guide as shown in one of the CC installation threads. After playing around with the cable routing I arrived at a bind free setting. The clearance is still tight.

So far I have had no further issues with the CC cutting out. But I haven't used it for more than 15 min. ether.

There is obviously some sort of failsafe cutoff if the servo tries to add additional throttle but is unable to.

As a matter of fact my Toyota Landcruser will do the same thing. Its under powered for its size, I have had situations where on very steep hills it will use full throttle or close to it to try to maintain speed. The cruise will shut off and can't be used again until the ignition is turned off/on.

I think the ultimate fix is a cleaner connection between the servo and throttle pulley. The CC seems very sensitive to binding or slack in the cable.

Good luck finding your problem.

 

[rfulcher]

I replaced the servo itself last week, last night I took a deep breath and replaced every other AVCC component and redid the vacuum lines. I am off next week and will spend most of the week in the NC mountain riding double for the first of the week and single for the 2nd half of the week. The bike itself ran smoother with a 4 vacuum ports and 4 check valves. I decided that if I could not get the cruise right I could at least focus on doing what seemed best for the bike. Once I got that far into the system I decided to replace everything. I doublt if I will have time to test the system prior to leaving as it takes at least a 40-60 miles ride for the problem to show and be tested.

If I have trouble on the vacation with the AVCC I will look VERY closely and the throttle connections and change (not just verify) every electrical connection.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I just finished an Audiovox install on my 07 a couple of weeks ago. I had the exact same problem with the cruise ether abruptly shutting off or sometimes not engaging. The abrupt shut off was usually in concert with some additional throttle being added because of a hill, using the accel button, etc.
I was not too happy with the beaded chain connection, but since it seemed to be what everyone else was using I went with it.

What I found to be the source of my problem, was that the beaded chain/servo cable connector was getting hung up in the narrow region between the fuel injection hardware leading down to the throttle pulley.

Visually everything looked good, I only noticed the connector hanging up when I pulled on the CC servo cable itself using some needle nose pliers.

I am using a curved piece of hard plastic tubing as a cable guide as shown in one of the CC installation threads. After playing around with the cable routing I arrived at a bind free setting. The clearance is still tight.

So far I have had no further issues with the CC cutting out. But I haven't used it for more than 15 min. ether.

There is obviously some sort of failsafe cutoff if the servo tries to add additional throttle but is unable to.

As a matter of fact my Toyota Landcruser will do the same thing. Its under powered for its size, I have had situations where on very steep hills it will use full throttle or close to it to try to maintain speed. The cruise will shut off and can't be used again until the ignition is turned off/on.

I think the ultimate fix is a cleaner connection between the servo and throttle pulley. The CC seems very sensitive to binding or slack in the cable.

Good luck finding your problem.

 

[bmwhd]

Good luck and ride safe on your trip. By the time you get back I'll have another '06 data point for you. My install is complete pending arrival of my control pad mount from Gary. All the connections have been checked and re-checked given all your woes. FWIW, I'm going to start with a single vacuum draw off of cyl 4 and a simple tee to the vacuum canister. I've been stumped at three different auto parts stores trying to find a simple 3/6" barb check valve. Stupid employees can't find a dang thing unless you can tell them what car it's from :angry2:

I estimate I've spent about 6 hours working on this. My next one will be much faster now that I've done one. One thing I did learn is that pulling the fairing panels helps even though I see Smitty doesn't seem to do that. I find access to the coils is a pain with the right side on because I've got fat hands.

 

[rfulcher]

I did a complete reinstall of everything but the servo last night in about 2 hours. This included making everything neat and OEM looking. In a month I have gone from "how do you take the seat off?" to taking the tank and stuff off down to the vacuum ports in about 10 minutes.

Check the "HELP" self service parts for check valves. I got mine offf of the internet. Do a search on check valves and Smitty.

Good luck and ride safe on your trip. By the time you get back I'll have another '06 data point for you. My install is complete pending arrival of my control pad mount from Gary. All the connections have been checked and re-checked given all your woes. FWIW, I'm going to start with a single vacuum draw off of cyl 4 and a simple tee to the vacuum canister. I've been stumped at three different auto parts stores trying to find a simple 3/6" barb check valve. Stupid employees can't find a dang thing unless you can tell them what car it's from :angry2:
I estimate I've spent about 6 hours working on this. My next one will be much faster now that I've done one. One thing I did learn is that pulling the fairing panels helps even though I see Smitty doesn't seem to do that. I find access to the coils is a pain with the right side on because I've got fat hands.

 

[bmwhd]

I'm very happy to report that my CC install is complete and the unit "woke up" and performed flawlessly!

Thanks to Ian and Gary for their incredible work on the control pad mount and to all those that have blazed the Audiovox trail before us.

Hang in there guy, these can be made to work on the Gen II bikes.

EDIT: On one recent jaunt I noticed the CC acting just as described in this thread. I couldn't believe it! I caught a Farkle bug just from reading about it!

I went home and pulled the tank and found the culprit straight away: the servo cable/chain connection to the wee bolt on the throttle pulley had gotten stuck at an odd angle due to my over zealous use of locktite on the nuts. I broke it free again and used a dental pick to clean the excess locktite off the threads. All's well again. :yahoo:

BTW, added the NAPA BK 7301348 check valve while I was in there for good measure.

 

[BuilderBob]

rfulcher,

Have you had any luck solving the problem yet?

I worked on mine this weekend, thinking that I had the solution. I eliminated the servo cable connection to the "tab" on the throttle and reconnected it directly to the throttle cable via the loop connector included with the Audiovox kit. With the connection there I definitely have more range of rotation of the throttle mechanism. Put everything back together and went for a test ride.

Things are worse than before! :angry: The cruise will barely hold for 5 minutes before cutting off. I'm completely baffled. The only possibility that I can think of is that the throttle cable is just too hard to pull. I'm getting tired of tearing things apart at this point, but I may try to release the throttle return spring one rotation and see if that has any effect.

 

[rfulcher]

I was on the bike a lot last week and may have spotted a pattern to the problem. The cruise control seems to work perfectly for 30 to 40 minutes on the road. It does not seem to matter if it is used or not. If I start using it at the start of the ride it works perfectly for at least 30 minutes or more. However after a certain period of time it starts to get flaky. If I try to use it after an hour or riding without th CC being activated it seems to get flaky almost as soon as activated. It does not get better if I turn it off for 20+ miles to let it "recover." Because of these observations I suspect that something on the bike changes the longer the bike runs. WTF?

What on the bike interfaces with the AVCC could change and cause problems with performance as time passes? :blink: :blink:

The AVCC works perfectly for more than 30 minutes at 78 mph even double with a full touring load. When it starts to go bad the 1st symptom is failure to resume after acceleration. It releases and does not "sag." The releases are not random but occur when the AVCC has to "work harder" to maintain RPM. The longer it works the worse it gets. If you have not tested yours for at least 30-60 minutes then you can not assume yours is good. If you can tell you have a problem within 5 minutes you do not have my problem.

I have verified adequate vacuum pressure, with 15 inches at times of failure. Vacuum is steady at approx 15 inches and does not drop as time passes.

I have checked the throttle linkage and it is as clean as I can make it. Everything has been replaced witha 2nd AVCC.

My next steps for testing will be to isolate the unit from the bike as much as possible.

1-Pick up the coil signal from the ECU instead of the coil wire.

2-Run the ground leads and power leads from the battery bypassing the bikes electronics.

3-If these steps do not accomplish anything then I may try to use the magnentic pickup kit for the speed signal.

Any suggestion on how to use a magnetic pickup. How and where to connect the magnet(s)

I will be moving slowly on this since my big trip of the year is over.

rfulcher,
Have you had any luck solving the problem yet?

I worked on mine this weekend, thinking that I had the solution. I eliminated the servo cable connection to the "tab" on the throttle and reconnected it directly to the throttle cable via the loop connector included with the Audiovox kit. With the connection there I definitely have more range of rotation of the throttle mechanism. Put everything back together and went for a test ride.

Things are worse than before! :angry: The cruise will barely hold for 5 minutes before cutting off. I'm completely baffled. The only possibility that I can think of is that the throttle cable is just too hard to pull. I'm getting tired of tearing things apart at this point, but I may try to release the throttle return spring one rotation and see if that has any effect.

 

[bmwhd]

One thing you might try is hooking a simple test lamp up to the purple wire (or a volt meter you can read while riding) to see if you're getting some kind of spurious voltage on the brake circuit after the bike's frame heat sinks from riding 30 min+

It sure seems like something is getting hot and acting differently then when cold.

 

[dtyo]

I just completed a 2500 mile round trip to Myrtle Beach and had mixed results with the AVCC. Overall, I'd say it worked 90-95% of the time. However, at times, it would develop a bad attitude and start releasing and then fail to hold at all. Having a lot of time to examine the problem and behavior, it definitively seems to be vacuum related. When the system gets into the failure mode and is unable to hold a set on what appears to be a level road, the AVCC will set and hold on a downhill grade - I had plenty of long downhill grades to thry this on. Granted, the system isn't really trying to accelerate, but all the same electrical systems have to work correctly for it to operate - the only real difference is the load on the throttle cable, or the vacuum level at the unit. The really strange part is that even when the AVCC would start to fail, if I stopped for gas, or even stopped using it for a little while, it would start operating correctly - it's not like the bike really had a chance to cool down, riding 12 hours a day didn't leave much time for a cool-down. I also tried playing around with some variations of the vacuum plumbing under the seat, but anything other than using the vacuum accumulator and check valve didn't work well at all. In the long run, the AVCC was still very useful, even is a partially crippled state - the fact was that unless there wasn't much traffic, I was constantly turing it on and off. In addition, my friends AVCC on his 06 FJR never once failed or behaved badly. I'm still thinking of replacing the vacuum line from the engine back to under the seat with a ridgid tubing. I had also adjusted the AVCC throttle linkage clamp and cable to reduce the amount of take-up slack, but it didn't change the overall results. I'm glad I have the AVCC, but just need to figure out how to get that last 5-10% of operation out of it.

Dan

 

[dcarver]

Just read this thread carefully from start to this post. Congrats to all of you for positive ideas and suggestions; exactly what this forum is about. Smitty performed my 06 under tank install and I've been very happy with it.. BUT, I've not used the CC for over, uhh, 5 minutes max, being that I'm the CBA CEO and all.. so it may exist and I simply haven't 'discovered' it yet.

My second job is Metrology. So I have access to cool equipment. My first thought would be to reproduce all the signals, e.g. pulses from the coil, volts from the battery, vacuum from the intake, singularly, to help identify the problem. Of course, by the time you buy all the equipment to perform this experiment, you could have bought a Gold Wing or better yet, an FLHTCU.

Seriously, keep up the good work; you have some really good folks here helping (not me) and you will find the problem..

 

[rfulcher]

Dtyo's problem is not the same as mine. Mine does not recover if I turn the bike off, even if it is off long enough for lunch. I don't think it is vacuum related since my vacuum guage reads 10 to 15 inches all of the time now, 4 vacuum ports and 5 check valves. Something changes as time of operation adds up and it does not recover just by being turned off.

The only things I know to do are: change rpm signal pickup to under the side cover, use a magnet for the speed signal, and/or bypass ALL electrical connections by wiring everything directly to the battery.

I guess the LAST thing to do would be to try a 3rd AVCC, but I know this is very very unlikely to be the problem.

I wonder if Smitty ever got around to changing the entire servo.

I am tired of this malfunction and will be working on it slowly. I was going to take it off the bike but she who must be obeyed pointed out that I would be bummed if I took it off the bike and someone else found the solution.

Ross

 

[smitty141]

Well guys I hoped using the Hall-effect switch with magnets would take care of the cruise problem... It didn't, and no luck on my end. It did work and would engage fine with the VSS senser installed. But after a short time the same trouble would come back. It would disengage with out reason. Hope someone figures this out... Smitty

 

[dtyo]

So I think Smitty's work and my experience during my recent trip help reduce the likelyhood that the problem is related to the electical portion of the installation. I was riding two-up yesterday and the AVCC failed to hold much more often than solo - particularly if climbing any kind of rise - associating this to an increased load w/ more throtttle opening, lower vacuum, more throttle pull. I know Ross stated that the vacuum level stays fairly constant on his installation but there may still be some subtle differences to the quality of the vacuum supplied to the AVCC. I'm still not convinced that the AVCC itself may not be at fault, even though Ross has tried 2 units with similar results - maybe there is a batch related issue. If I hadn't done the exact same installation on my buddies bike, who has not had any problems, I'd be thinking that there was a problem with the size of the vacuum accumulator or something similar related to the capacity (volume) of vacuum being delivered to the AVCC. I know Ross doesn't think our AVCC problems are the same, and that my be true, but maybe they are just varying degrees of the same root issue. If we all keep at it, I'm sure we'll come up with a solution.

Dan

 

[kballowe]

Have been reading this thread with some amount of interest. Mine acts exactly like Mr. rfulcher's unit. I have an '07 and everything had been replaced, one part at a time. Changed over to a speed sensor yesterday with two magnets @ 180 degrees (removed coil input). It improved the length of performance a bit, but did not solve the problem. Also, the cruise speed (+/-) is not as accurate as with the coil input.

Got up this morning and disconnected the vacuum lead from the servo. "Whoosh". Hmmmm - must have a pretty good seal there, eh? Added a 9" piece of 2" I.D. PVC with caps as an extra vacuum chamber (T'd into the existing vacuum chamber). Fit in the back under the rear seat. Just a thought. You know - maybe a larger volume would help. Never hurts to try.

Got onto the interstate in East-Central Missouri (rolling hills) and ran 14 miles set @75, then used the "set/coast" button to take it down to 65 for another 16 miles. All was well. Got off the exit for the return trip. At 40 miles, the cruise dis-engaged. After that it would not re-engage right away. When it would finally re-engage, it would hold for a mile, maybe two and then again dis-engage. Rode the bike for another 30 miles or so, then tried the cruise. Three miles and it failed and would not re-engage (tried off and on) for the next ten miles or so.

Parked bike for two hours. Got onto two-lane and set cruise at 60. Cruise dis-engaged within one mile. Tried it some more for the next ten miles or so. Same result, when I could get it to re-engage.

Came home and T-d a vacuum meter in-line. No leaks. Took new vacuum cylinder and installed air fitting and added 15 psi. Put into sink and filled with water and attempted to drown it by adding one large brick. No bubbles. Hmmmmm, must be holding its' breath. OK, maybe that one holds air. :glare:

Put back together. Let bike sit for three hours. Go ride bike and try to engage cruise. OK, that works for nearly two miles. Went home and opened a beer...... then got this bright idea to get online and depress the rest of you that have this same cruise control problem.

 

[Kevin Daly]

Ok this is my two cents worth. Mind you, I have no idea what i am talking about but...

the source of your problem is only 1 of two possibilities that relate to heat. Either the alternator is changing output as it heats up and this is affecting the AVCC, OR the more likely scenario is that the AVCC is heating up. When I was young and dumb I used to overclock computers. One method to be sure that heat was the reason why the computer locked up on boot was to put the CPU into the freezer and freeze it then slap it back into the computer and fire it up. if heat was the problem then this would allow you to get further through the boot, maybe get a start up screen.

The moral of the story is that heat will casue electronic parts to do all sorts of bad things. the sudden cut out could be the system failing all together OR it could be a heat induced short in a ROM or other silicon chip. I would try to get as much of the electronics away from heat as possible, shield it or at least get a thermal couple and measure the temp of the componenents as they function then start to fail.

If the AVCC was not designed to be sitting on top of what is notoriously the hottest bike on the road... ok that was a pun. Seriously, you guys have controlled for every other variable. Vacume is a dead horse at this point. You also established that the servo pulls strongly. for the ACVV to resume normal function it appears to require the bike cools down. It has to be heat and heat induced electronics failure.

-best of luck

 

[Constant Mesh]

Has anyone called Audiovox tech support and asked what the temperature limits are for the servo/electronics? Maybe locating the unit above the engine and near the hot coolant pipes exceeds the temperature rating of the servo? The coolant pipes above the engine head get quite hot (~175 - 210 DegF).

 

[rfulcher]

kballoowe,

Your description of the problem is very much like mine. Enough so that I feel safe saying we have the same problem. The puzzle for me is that it takes so long to recover after it occurs and then the bike is shut down.

Since both you and Smitty have had the same experience I don't think I will try using the magnetic pickup. I think you two have ruled that out as the source of the problem.

At present my guess is marginal servos or something strange in the electrical systems of 2nd generation bikes.

Has anyone had this problem with anything other than 2007? How about any problems prior to 2nd generation bikes?

Ross

 

[MKO]

Ok this is my two cents worth. Mind you, I have no idea what i am talking about but...the source of your problem is only 1 of two possibilities that relate to heat. Either the alternator is changing output as it heats up and this is affecting the AVCC, OR the more likely scenario is that the AVCC is heating up. When I was young and dumb I used to overclock computers. One method to be sure that heat was the reason why the computer locked up on boot was to put the CPU into the freezer and freeze it then slap it back into the computer and fire it up. if heat was the problem then this would allow you to get further through the boot, maybe get a start up screen.

The moral of the story is that heat will casue electronic parts to do all sorts of bad things. the sudden cut out could be the system failing all together OR it could be a heat induced short in a ROM or other silicon chip. I would try to get as much of the electronics away from heat as possible, shield it or at least get a thermal couple and measure the temp of the componenents as they function then start to fail.

If the AVCC was not designed to be sitting on top of what is notoriously the hottest bike on the road... ok that was a pun. Seriously, you guys have controlled for every other variable. Vacume is a dead horse at this point. You also established that the servo pulls strongly. for the ACVV to resume normal function it appears to require the bike cools down. It has to be heat and heat induced electronics failure.

-best of luck

Kevin:

Your heat theory makes sense. The fact that only those of us with gen2 are having the failure is not coincidence. Gen2 bikes don't roast thighs any more but the 1300cc mill still puts out a lot of heat and it has to go somewhere. It may be roasting the electronics in marginal AVCC units instead. Maybe the noise suppressor that is in series with the blue wire isn't doing its job of preventing erroneous electrical noise from other circuits from disengaging the unit, when it heats up. Because some gen2 installations work with the servo in the same location as those that fail, it may be the routing of wires that cause the difference.

 

[kballowe]

Yeah, I thought about the heat thing. It also happens just as quickly with 35 degree ambient air temperature. Weird, eh? The servo is mounted under the rear section of the front seat.........

I also thought about (wild stab here) the vacuum cylinder heating up, as it is mounted directly behind the engine. I disconnected it and used the larger cylinder under the rear seat with no difference in the way it acted. Used them together.... no difference.

Gremlins, I tell you! :mace:

Yes we changed the resistor and relocated wiring here and there. The only thing we haven't done is to chant in Latin and sprinkle it with holy water.......

Think that would help?

:glare:

I agree that common sense dictates that it would be related to heat. I can take a cold bike, run it for 45 minutes down the highway and the cruise is immediately flaky. Makes no difference if the cruise pad was "on" (not actually engaged) the whole time or if it was left in the "off" condition.

The common thing here is that the bike has been running for 20 - 30 minutes.

Maybe I'll pack that thing in a cold wrap tomorrow and see what happens.

 

[Kevin Daly]

I dont think ambient heat will make much of a difference. the bike temp is going to be the predominant factor. Also, placing the hardware in a "tray wil have little effect considering the flow of air under the fairing. the only way to falsify this would be to place the hardware where i cannot be affected by enfine heat. like on top of the tank for example (obviously not down by your shins )

It would be interesting to see what the differences is in positioning of the hardware between those who have functional AVCC's and those that dont.

Has anyone got it to work perfectly????

PS kballowe, I have had gremlins and they are much more evil than this