Powerband very different after minor mechanical work

[Denver_FJR]

I do find it surprising that your bike made 120 hp with the timing so far off. I'm betting if you do another run the difference will be noticeable.

Dyno was recently "tuned" by same mech, heh!

 

[dannymax]

It sounds like you're agreeing that the amount of your refund should somehow depend on the results of the dyno runs.

I can't understand this. If he believes you when you say you found the cam timing was off a tooth, he owes you a refund for the valve clearance check/adjust job, since you had to repeat all that work yourself, due to his screwup. If he doesn't believe you, well, I know how I would take that. If it was my bike, the refund amount would have nothing whatsoever to do with any dyno results.

All that aside, I do find it surprising that your bike made 120 hp with the timing so far off. I'm betting if you do another run the difference will be noticeable.

You misunderstood, the dyno results have nothing to do with the refund amount....I could have told him this afternoon to refund me the entire invoice amount and he would have sent it. I was just outlining the order in which I'm going to handle it.

Denver_FJR..."Dyno was recently "tuned" by same mech, heh!"

No. nothing like that....I'm dealing with PCW Engineering, they've won national drag bike titles, built bikes that put out over 500hp at the wheel.....they aren't going to jeopordize that kind of rep to try and bullshit me out of $500!! Ain't gonna happen man!

 

[carlson_mn]

I had the same amount of slip on my bike and I rode it for a couple rides before fixing it. Much of the top end power above 7krpms is still there. However, the midrange was ridiculously down on power. The bike sucked to ride.

I think you noted that the dyno only gave you some peak numbers? Either way 120 is acceptable for the average FJR and some see high 120s, just depends on the dyno and bike.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to have a full refund of labor and let them keep whatever they charged you for parts. I'd be happy with that at least, along with another dyno run.

 

[olsonm3915]

Yep, I definitely misunderstood.

For what it's worth: I know what I would do if I were him. First of all I would be embarrassed and apologetic and want to keep my customer happy (and maintain my reputation).

Assuming he put in the most expensive plugs (Iridiums, about $32/set) and a new cam cover gasket, tensioner gasket, timing cover gasket, new coolant manifold O-rings, all that comes to about $130 in parts (I paid $98 for all that stuff minus the plugs, plus shipping). See itemized list below (from Partshark.com).

I'm not sure how good a TBS he was getting with the cam timing off like it was- when mine was off a tooth it wouldn't even idle after it warmed up, so I imagine the master air bleed had to be fiddled with a fair amount to get yours to idle, too.

Anyway, glad you got it figured out and all is well now. Let us know what the new dyno number is.

Mfg 	Item                            Unit    Order Shipped   Total
                                       Cost    Qty 	Qty
Yamaha  GASKET, HEAD COVER 1 for Yama   $14.59  1   	1      $14.59
Yamaha  TENSIONER ASSY, CAM for Yamah   $72.81  1   	1      $72.81
Yamaha  GASKET, TENSIONER CA for Yama   $1.14   1   	1   	$1.14
Yamaha  GASKET, OIL PUMP COV for Yama   $6.50   1   	1   	$6.50
Yamaha  O-RING for                      $1.24   2   	2   	$2.48
                                                       Tax:    $0.00
                                               Shipping:      $12.50
                                               Total:        $110.02

 

[dannymax]

I had the same amount of slip on my bike and I rode it for a couple rides before fixing it. Much of the top end power above 7krpms is still there. However, the midrange was ridiculously down on power. The bike sucked to ride.

I think you noted that the dyno only gave you some peak numbers? Either way 120 is acceptable for the average FJR and some see high 120s, just depends on the dyno and bike.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to have a full refund of labor and let them keep whatever they charged you for parts. I'd be happy with that at least, along with another dyno run.

Yes, it certainly did suck to drive it!! I suppose, if it was your first ride on an FJR it might seem ok, but knowing the difference just took the fun right out of it completely.

My mid range is back now, and very strong....I'm really curious how that will affect the next dyno run....which will be a full run w/torque numbers, etc.

 

[dannymax]

Yep, I definitely misunderstood.

For what it's worth: I know what I would do if I were him. First of all I would be embarrassed and apologetic and want to keep my customer happy (and maintain my reputation).

Assuming he put in the most expensive plugs (Iridiums, about $32/set) and a new cam cover gasket, tensioner gasket, timing cover gasket, new coolant manifold O-rings, all that comes to about $130 in parts (I paid $98 for all that stuff minus the plugs, plus shipping). See itemized list below (from Partshark.com).

I'm not sure how good a TBS he was getting with the cam timing off like it was- when mine was off a tooth it wouldn't even idle after it warmed up, so I imagine the master air bleed had to be fiddled with a fair amount to get yours to idle, too.

Anyway, glad you got it figured out and all is well now. Let us know what the new dyno number is.

Mfg 	Item                            Unit    Order Shipped   Total
                                       Cost    Qty 	Qty
Yamaha  GASKET, HEAD COVER 1 for Yama   $14.59  1   	1      $14.59
Yamaha  TENSIONER ASSY, CAM for Yamah   $72.81  1   	1      $72.81
Yamaha  GASKET, TENSIONER CA for Yama   $1.14   1   	1   	$1.14
Yamaha  GASKET, OIL PUMP COV for Yama   $6.50   1   	1   	$6.50
Yamaha  O-RING for                      $1.24   2   	2   	$2.48
                                                       Tax:    $0.00
                                               Shipping:      $12.50
                                               Total:        $110.02

I wish I could figure out the 'multi-quote' feature....I've tried every combination and run searches but have been unable to sort it out yet....I'm really not trying to boost my post count....really!

You hit it right on the head olsonm....he is extremely embarassed, mostly because he was so adamant about the bike not being able to run at all being a tooth off at the crank. His words were, "I commend you for not listening to my rant about the bike not running at all and going home and fixing it yourself, you are obviously better qualified to work on the FJR than I am!" He also said he learned a little bit about the FJR and a lot about himself, aparrently he was discussing it with his wife and her comment was, "John, when are you going to learn you're human like the rest of us, we all learn every day!"

Anyway, that brings us to today and what to do. Thanks for the pricing info olsonm but not much of it applies....I furnished the CCT and gasket, the valve cover gasket and coolant pipe o-rings were re-useable and they never removed the oil pump cover....which got me in this mess in the first place! So I guess the labor to install the CCT and the cost of the plugs (not sure what they are but probably OEM Yamaha spec) and the remainder should be returned to me. Don't think I'd be out of line asking for $250 - $300 back.

I'm also curious about the TBS, I will mention that at the dyno run and I'm sure they will check it.

The money is not the issue with John, his main deal is that he made a big mistake which could have resulted in a destroyed motor, he dodged a bullet and realizes that I essentially bailed him out with only some bruised pride. He is going to e-mail the entire story to some guy named Cameron...a writer for Cycle-World (I think he said) so if anybody gets that mag, maybe you'll be reading about it.

I intend to use these guys again, without reservation, and want to be fair, hell, it was a mistake....it happens.

 

[olsonm3915]

He is going to e-mail the entire story to some guy named Cameron...a writer for Cycle-World (I think he said) so if anybody gets that mag, maybe you'll be reading about it.

f you go back up the thread and look at the picture I posted, you'll realize I made more or less the same mistake he did, so reading about it in Kevin Cameron's column probably won't be a big attraction for me.
I've been working on bikes and cars ever since I was a teen, more than 30 years. learning a lot along the way. This mistake was really humbling for me and in itself wasn't all that big of a deal, since there wasn't any damage done to the engine. But it did serve as an excellent teaching opportunity, since the way I went about diagnosing why my bike wouldn't idle ignored the most obvious thing, which was the last major mechanical system I touched, the cam chain. I convinced myself that there was no way it could have slipped a tooth, since I had taken the timing cover off and cable tied the cam chain runs tightly together. I was so sure I didn't check the timing before buttoning everything back up, even though it would have been a trivial amount of effort to do it. Basically a dumb mistake, and I compounded the problem by ignoring good diagnostic practice.

Live and learn.

 

[dannymax]

He is going to e-mail the entire story to some guy named Cameron...a writer for Cycle-World (I think he said) so if anybody gets that mag, maybe you'll be reading about it.

f you go back up the thread and look at the picture I posted, you'll realize I made more or less the same mistake he did, so reading about it in Kevin Cameron's column probably won't be a big attraction for me.
I've been working on bikes and cars ever since I was a teen, more than 30 years. learning a lot along the way. This mistake was really humbling for me and in itself wasn't all that big of a deal, since there wasn't any damage done to the engine. But it did serve as an excellent teaching opportunity, since the way I went about diagnosing why my bike wouldn't idle ignored the most obvious thing, which was the last major mechanical system I touched, the cam chain. I convinced myself that there was no way it could have slipped a tooth, since I had taken the timing cover off and cable tied the cam chain runs tightly together. I was so sure I didn't check the timing before buttoning everything back up, even though it would have been a trivial amount of effort to do it. Basically a dumb mistake, and I compounded the problem by ignoring good diagnostic practice.

Live and learn.

Yeah, Kevin Cameron, that's the guys name.

I still have a little trouble with your chain skipping a tooth after tying it back and all.....it just seems so unlikely! But as they say....'it is what it is' and I'm pretty sure if I had done the work myself and taken the measures you did to prevent the dreaded 'CAM CHAIN SKIP' I would have violated the first rule of proper troubleshooting too.

For something that doesn't even seem possible, it's incredibly easy to do! As you said...L&L.

 

[dannymax]

10 of the 16 that I adjusted were all tight. My Yamaha dealer told me it's best to set the exhaust valves on the tight side of the clearance because the valves tend to tighten over time on them, if anything.

You may not see much more hp on the dyno if it only gives peak numbers.... I'd say they give you half of what they charged for valve adjust back considering what you had to do. It's nice to see the dyno runs though, let us know the 'after' numbers. I'm guessing 125.

Ran the follow-up dyno run this morning and you called it Matt! The top end was hardly affected at all, but it made more power, faster (than on the first run) right from the first crack of the throttle and continued making more right up to about 130 mph where it started falling off.

Peak HP....122.0, not enough of a gain to get me high HP awards but the 'over the road' performance is great and the mileage jumped from 40 to 43.

We agreed on $150 refund and a deal on my next set of Michelin PR's, AND I got to learn quite a bit about my FJR....kinda a crash course but....oh well.

I'm pleased with the outcome....would I go back there?....without any hesitation whatsoever!

 

[carlson_mn]

I bet you'll go back to your garage next time you check your valves

That will be nice to get a deal on the PR2s though and good to see it made even more hp. Some people with exhaust and PC are lucky to get 122hp, the FJR is pretty much tuned well from the factory for what it is. However, I will say if you're ever looking for more top end the Muzzy will system I have will do that.

 

[dannymax]

I bet you'll go back to your garage next time you check your valves

That will be nice to get a deal on the PR2s though and good to see it made even more hp. Some people with exhaust and PC are lucky to get 122hp, the FJR is pretty much tuned well from the factory for what it is. However, I will say if you're ever looking for more top end the Muzzy will system I have will do that.

Yup, I bet I do too! Now that I know the process, AND the 3 spots to cable tie the cam chain off.....how could anything go wrong!!

I know every newb Feejer says this but, the damn thing has plenty of power just the way it is. I'm not a hi-speed guy so top end is fine altho I am quite fond of cheek ripping acceleration....and she's already got that!

Ah, we'll just have to wait & see! :lol:

 

[liljohn]

I would also guess the CCT swap changed the valve timing. I had the opposite experience. I bought an 03 last winter and just got it out of the shop. They replaced a ticking CCT; the valves were all fine. When riding the bike home, I noticed a substantial increase in torque, even though none of the valves ahd been readjusted. So apparently changing the CCT can alter valve timing, for better or for worse.

 

[wheatonFJR]

... So apparently changing the CCT can alter valve timing, for better or for worse.

????

How does a Cam chain Tensioner (all it does is take up slack in the cam chain) have anything to do with timing? It does not.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

... So apparently changing the CCT can alter valve timing, for better or for worse.

????

How does a Cam chain Tensioner (all it does is take up slack in the cam chain) have anything to do with timing? It does not.

Technically speaking...:

(although I don't think it happens, generally, with FJRs)

The cam-chain length is/can be part of the timing equation -- as it lengthens, the cam-sprockets' positions tend to lag-behind the crank-sprocket's position.

There are (and, have been...) many custom devices to accomodate this: split-keys and off-set key-ways (in different positions -- a'la Triumph Twins) and slotted cam-sprocket mounting-holes are just a few.

 

[dannymax]

(although I don't think it happens, generally, with FJRs)

The-cam chain length is/can be part of the timing equation -- as it lengthens the cam-sprockets' positions tend to lag-behind the crank-sprocket's position.

Yeah, was thinking the chain length would be the only way....but don't see how this could be where liljohn picked up his add'l. torque.

Perhaps the surgeon left a sponge inside and it took awhile to burn it's way through???

 

[liljohn]

I was thinking along the lines that a sufficiently loose chain would change the relationship between the crank and the cams. I should have said valve timing, not just timing. But I'm just speculating. The only other things the mechanic did (as far as I know) was change the plugs and the coolant. But there is a definite performane boost - much snappier throttle response. Who knows? Maybe the plugs were a mess.

 

[dannymax]

I was thinking along the lines that a sufficiently loose chain would change the relationship between the crank and the cams. I should have said valve timing, not just timing. But I'm just speculating. The only other things the mechanic did (as far as I know) was change the plugs and the coolant. But there is a definite performane boost - much snappier throttle response. Who knows? Maybe the plugs were a mess.

New plugs could do it, maybe he also did a TB sync?

 

[liljohn]

I was thinking along the lines that a sufficiently loose chain would change the relationship between the crank and the cams. I should have said valve timing, not just timing. But I'm just speculating. The only other things the mechanic did (as far as I know) was change the plugs and the coolant. But there is a definite performane boost - much snappier throttle response. Who knows? Maybe the plugs were a mess.

New plugs could do it, maybe he also did a TB sync?

I'd like to think he did SOMETHING else. The SOB kept my bike for two weeks and charged me $515, even though I supplied my own coolant and plugs.

 

[dannymax]

I was thinking along the lines that a sufficiently loose chain would change the relationship between the crank and the cams. I should have said valve timing, not just timing. But I'm just speculating. The only other things the mechanic did (as far as I know) was change the plugs and the coolant. But there is a definite performane boost - much snappier throttle response. Who knows? Maybe the plugs were a mess.

New plugs could do it, maybe he also did a TB sync?

I'd like to think he did SOMETHING else. The SOB kept my bike for two weeks and charged me $515, even though I supplied my own coolant and plugs.

Holy Batballs, Crapman!!!....did he charge you storage? :lol:

Although....I spent over $500 to create a weeks worth of work for myself so maybe I'll just 'button-up'!! :glare:

 

[carlson_mn]

I was thinking along the lines that a sufficiently loose chain would change the relationship between the crank and the cams. I should have said valve timing, not just timing. But I'm just speculating. The only other things the mechanic did (as far as I know) was change the plugs and the coolant. But there is a definite performane boost - much snappier throttle response. Who knows? Maybe the plugs were a mess.

New plugs could do it, maybe he also did a TB sync?

I'd like to think he did SOMETHING else. The SOB kept my bike for two weeks and charged me $515, even though I supplied my own coolant and plugs.

:bad:

It's about time you found this site....