Problem with Mapsource Version 6.16.X

[Fred W]

In preparation for the upcoming Covered Bridges of New Hampshire group ride in October, Professor ionbeam and I have been attempting to do some route sharing. The Prof has graciously "volunteered" to help lead a part of the group ride, should it become anywhere near as popular as the Whites and Greens ride earlier this summer. :Snorkle: As it turns out, there was just one li'l SNAFU...

He alerted me to the problem that, any time I sent him a GPS route, when he subsequently uploaded that route to his Streetpilot 2720 GPS it would corrupt the routing, adding extra loops and sections of route that (obviously) were not intended. One can inspect their routes on the GPS by using route / preview routine and zooming way in, and then scrolling through the route via the touch screen. These new sections of unintended route, we began to refer to as "spaghetti."

Even on close inspection of the routes in Mapsource on his PC, they all looked perfect! But after the transfer to the GPS using the Mapsource transfer tool, spaghetti!

Back on the W&G ride, I recalled that some of the other riders with GPSes commented on similar situations, where they had phantom turns and loops in their GPS route that we did not follow. The game was afoot! There is (was) an incompatibility somewhere, and it MUST be rooted out! :nerdsmiley: (yeah, I'm like that...)

We tried about a dozen different variations of routing formats, but they all behaved pretty much the same. Yet, on my end I could upload the routes to my own Garmin Zumo 550, and they were always perfect-o. When we compared configurations we found that he had older an version of maps than mine (2008 vs 2009), but a newer version of Mapsource (6.16.2 vs 6.15.11). In an attempt to minimize the variables, I downloaded and installed the 6.16.2 MS upgrade from the Garmin web site. After doing this my also routes became scrambled after uploading to my zumo. That was a "Very Good Thing"™. Being able to reproduce a problem is half the challenge to fixing it. :thumbsup:

I took a spaghetti infested route on my Zumo and forced a recalculate on it via the route edit menus. Spaghetti gone!! So apparently, when the GPS filled in the routing between the transferred viapoints it was fine, but the transferred routing was FUBAR. Hoowever, when the Professor tried to do the same thing on his SP2720 it would not clear out all the pink pasta. :glare:

I next tried building an entirely new copy of the route from scratch, a 6.16 version, figuring that perhaps the incompatibility may have been because the route was formed on a prior/different version of MS. Nope, still spaghetti-ized. :glare:

Next I pulled the exact same route over to my (new) netbook PC, on which I still had Mapsource version 6.13.7, which is the version that came on DVD with my Zumo, and when I used that version to send the same route to my Zumo - No spaghetti!! Hmmmm...

I then removed Mapsource 6.16.2 from my desktop PC and re-installed the 6.13 version from the DVD ROM, and still no spaghetti. Later, ionbeam did the same from his factory DVD and his fettuccine infestation was also resolved.

Google searching on this problem turned up nothing of value or coincidence. I have sent an email to Garmin's tech support, alerting them to this potential bug in their 6.16 version of Mapsource. We'll see what that results in. In the meantime,

I recommend the following course of action for all Garmin GPS / Mapsource users:

1 ) If you have not already upgraded your Mapsource to 6.16.X - [SIZE=14pt]Don't do it!! [/SIZE]

2 ) If you have already upgraded your Mapsource to 6.16.x - [SIZE=14pt]Get rid of it!! [/SIZE]

Or as the Professor PM'ed me in the final throes of the pasta perversion:

"In (nearly) the words of Lady Macbeth, "Out, damned rev 6.16.x! Out, I say!"

Going back to the future (in Mapsource terms):

At the beginning of this fiasco, I was running MS 6.15.11 just fine and ionbeam was running the very next version (6.16.1) with the problem. So the macaroni madness was apparently first introduced in that upgrade, but it is still present in the currently downloadable version of Mapsource 6.16.2.

Gamin doesn't make it real easy for you to go backwards in Mapsource versions. You will need to remove all prior traces of your current Mapsource (including any installed maps), reinstall the earlier version of Mapsource and then reinstall whatever (latest) version of maps you have. It does, however, retain your map unlock keys in the PC's registry, and you can also transfer the unlock keys from the GPS to the PC via the USB cable, or you can get them, from your MyGarmin account, so there is very little risk that you will lose those. Ideally you should have the same version of maps installed in Mapsource as on your GPS to minimize inconsistencies when downloading routes.

To go backward, you'll either need to have a DVD-ROM copy of the prior release of Mapsource (like the one that came with your GPS) or there is a very old version (6.11.5) that is downloadable from Garmin. They make this available for PC's running older Windows OSes. I have not tried it, so I don't know how defeatured that version is or what bugs it may have.

Another possibility would be to borrow a copy of a DVD from someone you know. There may be other download opportunities for prior versions of Mapsource that I am not aware of.

Just say NO to Mapsource spaghetti!! :nono:

 

[beerme]

Why do you hate pasta? :angry2:

 

[SkooterG]

Did you call Garmin and ask them, 'WTF'?

 

[Fred W]

Why do you hate pasta? :angry2:

I only hate it in my GPS routes. I love it where it belongs:

[Fat *******] Git in mah belly! [/Fat *******]

Did you call Garmin and ask them, 'WTF'?

Call them, no. My time is worth more than that to me.

As I mentioned in the post, I sent their tech support an email notification via their web site.

 

[ionbeam]

Before stuffing my MapSucks program through the Way Back Machine I opened up a Word session and copy/pasted every license, code, password, unlock key and all other pertinent info for those 'just in case' moments. I created another directory on my hard drive, gave it a name that was anything but Garmin and copied everything that did not come on the MapSource disk into that directory as a backup.

The MapSource disk recognized that I already had a copy installed, therefore wouldn't install again, all it offered was to uninstall. I let it uninstall and it botched the task and wouldn't complete; nor would it let me reinstall afterwords. I used Control Panel/Add or Remove Programs to remove two of the three Gremlin Garmin programs. I was able to then reinstall MapSource. A quick check of the revision and -- oh **** -- it is still showing 6.16.2. This time I manually deleted the relevant Garmin MapSource info. Upon reinstall yet again, I checked the MapSource version and this time it showed 6.12.4. I did have to enter my 25 digit map unlock code which I did as a copy/paste from Word.

After downloading the Covered Bridges ride for the 3410 time I uploaded it to my 2730, and lo and behold, the spaghetti was gone. When viewing the down rev MapSource I was pleased to see that routes were back to being highlighted with yellow and not the purple from the later versions. I could once again see road numbers and secondary information that the purple route highlight obscured. All in all I'm actually pleased with the down rev and haven't yet found a down side to it.

Some samples of spaghetti below, these are far from the worst examples. I had selected these because they coincided with route markers that I thought may have been related to causing the spaghetti. I even tried adding my own markers interleaved with Fred's hoping to force the route into submission, but no luck.

When this route is run with the Gremlin 2730's route simulator the trip token arrows shows that it creates an endless circle.

The :Snorkle: route, be sure to come prepared.

Over and back and over and back,

a little do-si-do,

wave to yourself as you come and go

 

[RaYzerman19]

I have also had issues with cross-pollinating GPS's.... a friend created a route with the Mapsource that came with the Nuvi 765 and sent me the route... In my version of Mapsource (probably 14 or 15) it was OK, but when transferred to the Zumo 550, for some reason it calculated the time as 12 hrs when it should have been 8, and as we rode, no turn by turn directions, and showed us riding in fields where the road wasn't.....

However, I am running MapSource 6.16.2 and 2011 maps with no issues with my Zumo (that I know of)...... the other thing you have to look at is what the routing preferences are on both GPS's, shorter route, no unpaved, no toll roads, etc. to see that they're identical. I found the slider for minor roads vs. major roads impacts calculation significantly. You'll get more spaghetti if you're biased too much towards minor roads, and 6.16 seems to be more sensitive in that regard to the point I now have the pointer in the middle. But, if you upload to a GPS and do a recalculate, things will change based on the avoidances settings in the GPS, and you'll find that if you ever do a recalculate while in the middle of a route.... answer, make sure you have enough waypoints not too far apart so the GPS has to seek the next waypoint during a recalculation and it will take you the fastest or shortest way to get there based on your preference setting. You may not have enough waypoints.........

 

[Fred W]

I'm aware of most of that. Much of that was experimented with.

Yes, recalculate on the GPS might clean up the routes on your (zumo) GPS. But may not help others you are sharing with.

You don't have any problem that you know of, until someone sends you a map route, or you try to share your routes with others.

What is the advantage of 6.16.x over the older versions. I've read the revision note history, and having a hard time finding a reason to use the most recent version.

 

[FJRFrank]

I'm not saying that these are your problems but it's just something to check. I've had similar problem with mystery routing loops if I created routes in Mapsource using new maps but didn't update the maps in the GPS or had old routes created with an old map and was using them with new maps. Sometimes waypoint coords and where they are located change between map or Mapsource versions which causes routing loops and other goofy things. That's because an older routing waypoint may have been located on a highway in an old map but with the new map version it may be sitting in the woods somewhere. When you recalc you get all the mystery loops in an attempt to try to get you back on the road. When shuttling routes between GPS's it's important that the GPS's all be using the same map and Mapsource version or things get wacky for the same reason.

I also had a real wacky problem one time when I had 2 street maps loaded into Mapsource (I update my maps every year). I had several routes, some using the older map and some routes using the newer maps. The GPS did not like that one bit so make sure that only one street map is loaded into the GPS. To make sure that this doesn't happen make sure that you have only one street map available in Mapsource by deleting the older ones. Also be sure to recreate all routes using the old maps before deleting the old maps or you'll lose your routes too.

-- Frank --

 

[JamesK]

Just to add a little to FJRFranks comments, I've seen this sort of problem, but it's been related (at least in that case) to the various GPS running different version maps.

As far as rolling back versions of MS, I've been able to do this by simply overwriting/replacing some of the major .EXE files rather than going through all the PITA of uninstalling and re-installing the whole MS app. The two key .EXE files I've replaced are Mapsource.exe & Mapinstall.exe. I is even sufficient to simply rename the previous files, by adding say a version number after the .exe extension.

 

[Bounce]

There's a setting in my 2610 I had to change after it originally had me going along i-35 and getting off at every other exit and back on at the alternate exits. That might explain some of what it's doing when your route gets into the GPS.

I can't remember what that setting is off the top of my head though. Maybe it was something like avoid interstates and that was the only viable route. Maybe it was something else.

 

[ionbeam]

There's a setting in my 2610 I had to change after it originally had me going along i-35 and getting off at every other exit and back on at the alternate exits. That might explain some of what it's doing when your route gets into the GPS.
I can't remember what that setting is off the top of my head though. Maybe it was something like avoid interstates and that was the only viable route. Maybe it was something else.

This issue was independent of shorter/faster; preferences between secondary/highway roads and the deadly RECALCULATE ROUTE setting on the GPS. MapSource has always looked good, the problem has never shown there. The error we were getting happens in the transfer of the routes to the GPS. I sent maps with the routes, I sent routes without maps, we changed the locations of way points and I made a number of other changes. The only thing that made a difference was the revision of MapSource.

JamesK is correct, I could have used my file manager and picked the *.exe's off of the CD and just replaced the executables in MapSource but I wanted to be sure I had a clean slate.

None of this matters unless you are trying to universally share routes with others. Over the years our little New England rides have gotten more numerous and now have so many bikes participating that we need to start splitting rides into groups. One way we try to ensure that everyone gets to share the same ride is to distribute routes to the various GPS that many riders have. Also, at EOM '09 there were a bunch of people that had issues with the ride maps that were made available. I'm sure that the people who worked so hard to scout the routes and make the GPS maps had no idea that the maps would not universally work.

 

[Fred W]

Thanks for the ideas, guys. Especially the one about rolling back without deleting all the files. That makes sense. :thumbsup:

One thing to keep in mind on this particular problem is that the spaghetti was occurring, not just on the routes that I shared with other people, who may have been running a different version of maps, but also on my own zumo after I uploaded them (i.e, same maps version as the routes were created in).

The routes always looked fine in Mapsource. Never any spaghetti displayed there.

And even if someone took the routes into their Mapsource 6.16 and forced a recalculate of the route to their version of maps, they would look clean in MS, but when the maps were uploaded to their GPS it was spaghetti.

And, all that was required to get rid of this problem was for the Mapsource version of the user to be downgraded to 6.15 or earlier. No other changes were made and no spaghetti seen ever, even when sharing my routes backwards across map versions (2009 to 2008).

It seems like a slam dunk that 6.16 has this bug feature in it. I suspect that it may not occur if using both the latest Mapsource version 6.16 and the latest version of maps, 2011.1. I do not have that configuration so could not test it. I'd speculate that this bug got through Garmin's software verification and validation process because they probably do the majority of their V&V at the current version of maps, where they (optimistically) may believe the majority of their customers would be.

I did get a response from Garmin to my email notifying them of the bug:

They said:

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.
Thank you for your Feedback I will pass the information on to be looked into. It may just be an unitentional bug in the new version of Mapsource. For the time being just use you older version. When the next version of mapsource comes out I would still advise to update as that behavior may be corrected.

Due to the spelling mistake, I'm thinking this was an actual (personal) response and not any sort of email processing 'bot or canned response.

 

[JamesK]

Just one other idea I'd be interesting in trying. In the case of the Zumo you can simply copy the route file to the Garmin\GPX folder either on the Zumo or the SD card. In theory this would by pass your MS screwing up the transfer process. The route would be found by the Zumo on the next bootup and you'll have a chance to import it. I would think this will result in a spaghetti free route independent of the MS version, but it would be good to confirm.

 

[Fred W]

One problem with using GPX route files is that they are generic.

You cannot use "Intersection points" in your route shaping (they are proprietary to Garmin), and so are stuck with the Jeff Ashe solution of placing viapoints just after intersections and listening to Jill announce them in your ears all day long, interrupting your easy listening of Mitch Miller and Lawrence Welk, and ultimately disturbing your wah.

[edit] But I'd guess that transferring a GPX file would be pasta free since you do not actually transfer the route, just a series of viapoints and expect the GPS to connect the dots.

 

[wfooshee]

Well, that was weird.

I PM'd Fred to offer to see what the route did for me, since I have 6.16.2 and 2011.2 maps. He sent me the download link for the route and I tried it on my 2730, with the 2011.2 maps. Alan seems to have determined that the spaghetti comes from the route being run through Mapsource 6.16.x, but nobody had that Mapsource and 2011 maps.

On the first transfer, it told me that it didn't match the maps in my device, even though I have the same 2011.2 map set in Mapsource and the device. It asked me if I wanted to recalc, I said "sure." I'd neglected to turn off GPS and set my location to the start, so it routed me from Panama City to the route's endpoint, bypassing the first half of the route! Not useful.

Drop back, punt. Deleted the route, put GPS to "use indoors," set my position, transfered again (haven't recalced in Mapsource yet,) got the mismatch message. Route was pasta-free after recalc, but I don't know that it was the same route, since it recalced.

Drop back, punt again. Deleted the route, recalced the route in Mapsource, transfered the route again, no mismatch message. Route is pastafied. Recalced on the 2730, route is OK, but is it the same route?

Tried the same process with my 2610. Switched to the City navigator V7 (!) map in Mapsource, loaded Fred's .gdb file, and transferred route, waypoints, and detail map to the 2510. Route is perfect on the 2610, no fudging.

So with 6.16.x and 2011 maps, the route transfers pastafied after being laid onto your own mapset by recalc in Mapsource, but recalcs OK on the device. At least on my 2730.

 

[k7lvo]

I did get a response from Garmin to my email notifying them of the bug:
They said:

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.
Thank you for your Feedback I will pass the information on to be looked into. It may just be an unitentional bug in the new version of Mapsource. For the time being just use you older version. When the next version of mapsource comes out I would still advise to update as that behavior may be corrected.

Due to the spelling mistake, I'm thinking this was an actual (personal) response and not any sort of email processing 'bot or canned response.

The scary part is that they imply that there are intentional bugs! <_<

 

[Fred W]

So with 6.16.x and 2011 maps, the route transfers pastafied after being laid onto your own mapset by recalc in Mapsource, but recalcs OK on the device. At least on my 2730.

That is exactly how it behaved on ver 6.16.2 with uploading to my Zumo with 2009 maps, except that it did not require me to recalculate because it came from the same map version. If I did recalculate it cleaned it up.

However, when sent to Alan's 2720 he could recalculate till he turned blue and the pasta could not be exorcised.

The scary part is that they imply that there are intentional bugs! <_<

Yeah, I thought that was an amusing choice of (misspelled) words too.

 

[RaYzerman19]

To answer your question about, is it worth it to upgrade to 6.16.2....... there is nothing there really to make it worthwhile. I actually don't like the way it looks and would like an older version.... functionally, creating routes, etc. there no advantage.

There is a Zumo forum which might help with general issues of Mapsource, etc. https://www.zumoforums.com/

 

[Fred W]

Thanks, yes that was my impressions of 6.16 as well.

And I'm a member of Zumo Forums, just not an active participant.