Professional Oil Analysis

[LSUBOY]

Have been wanting to get my oil checked by a professional company for a long time in an attempt to get the real dope on it's usefullness.

Tha company that I am leaning towards is www.blackstone-labs.com out of Indiana and eye would love it iffin you fellows would check their site out and let me know what you think of it.

I will do my 97 Royal, 05 Vencha and 06 FJR once it gets past 10,000 miles. And, my test will run like this:

A. Send a new unused sample in for TBS testing

B. Send a sample of oil in for testing starting at 1,000 miles and every 500 miles after that.

C. Filter change & top-off every 500 miles starting at the 1500 mile mark

Click Motorcycle

The thing that I like about this company is their turnaround time 1 WEEK.

What-cha-think?

 

[Randy]

C. Filter change & top-off every 500 miles starting at the 1500 mile mark

Just a sec.... are you telling me you're going to change your oil filter every 500 miles?!?!?!?!?! You say that you will change filter and top off every 500 miles.

Gonna be pretty messy if you try to change the filter without changing the oil unless you're gonna lay 'er down on the right side.

 

[odot]

Amsoil has a oil-check set up also....never tried it so I don't know about a turnaround time.

 

[radman]

C. Filter change & top-off every 500 miles starting at the 1500 mile mark

Just a sec.... are you telling me you're going to change your oil filter every 500 miles?!?!?!?!?! You say that you will change filter and top off every 500 miles.

Gonna be pretty messy if you try to change the filter without changing the oil unless you're gonna lay 'er down on the right side.

Why would that be Randy? Filter is pressure fed, resides well above the oil level in the pan. You could pretty much lay it down on the left side and not see any oil loss.

 

[fjr]

There would be some oil loss though.....

Somewhere there is a pic of aluminum foil placed strategically to prevent a mess when you unscrew the filter.

 

[radman]

There would be some oil loss though.....Somewhere there is a pic of aluminum foil placed strategically to prevent a mess when you unscrew the filter.

To direct the contents of the filter. A little bit of oil drains from the 2 galleys on the block, but unless the engine is running, this amounts to very, very little.

 

[Randy]

C. Filter change & top-off every 500 miles starting at the 1500 mile mark

Just a sec.... are you telling me you're going to change your oil filter every 500 miles?!?!?!?!?! You say that you will change filter and top off every 500 miles.

Gonna be pretty messy if you try to change the filter without changing the oil unless you're gonna lay 'er down on the right side.

Why would that be Randy? Filter is pressure fed, resides well above the oil level in the pan. You could pretty much lay it down on the left side and not see any oil loss.

whew - you're lucky radman - i almost hit REPORT instead of QUOTE and you would have been in trouble!! Yeah, pretty stupid comment on my part. I just think of the amount of oil that comes spewing out of the filter when I take it off and I guess that's mostly from the oil that's inside the filter.

I'll kick myself in the nuts for that one....sorry.

Curious as to about how much oil you lose when you do just a filter change and don't drain the pan (how much is in the filter and how much is en route that comes spewing out).

For the oil experts, do you expect the analysis to show a big difference between 500 mile oil and 1000 mile oil? Wouldn't the results be a bit skewed as 1000 mile oil has some fresh oil that was used for the top off or won't it be enough to make that much of a difference?

 

[Randy]

There would be some oil loss though.....Somewhere there is a pic of aluminum foil placed strategically to prevent a mess when you unscrew the filter.

I don't worry about aluminum foil. I just remove the hex head bodywork screw under the filter, pull it away, remove the filter and let it run into the drain pan. No fuss, no muss. Just spray it down with some contact cleaner and wipe it off after it's drained.

 

[LSUBOY]

Will have my mind made up as to particulars {in 2-4 weeks or so} about how to run test; However, this is what I am looking for:

1. How long can I run Rotella T with the same filter

2. How long can I run Rotella T with a filter change & top-off every 1500, 2000, 2500 and up

And, since I run Golden Spectro on long trips

1. How long can I run GS with the same filter

2. How long can I run GS with a filter change & top-off @ 1500, 2000, 2500 and on

Should be able to send in my first sample in a couple of weeks as per um down in southern Florida and RIDE EVERYDAY! Oh' my Gawd, my skin is so dark from being in the sun all tha time!

 

[Shane]

Will have my mind made up as to particulars {in 2-4 weeks or so} about how to run test;  However, this is what I am looking for:
1.  How long can I run Rotella T with the same filter

2.  How long can I run Rotella T with a filter change & top-off every 1500, 2000, 2500 and up

And, since I run Golden Spectro on long trips

1.  How long can I run GS with the same filter

2.  How long can I run GS with a filter change & top-off @ 1500, 2000, 2500 and on

@LSUBOY,

Not to diss on your quest for oil knowledge nirvana, but, I don't get it.

If you're going to spend the money to have oil tested at the frequencies in your earlier post, what difference does it make how long you can run with any of them?

By "long trips" do you mean that the service life of the oil will be in danger, and that changing oil on the road is not an option you would consider?

I mean, if you just want to know, cool, but if your trying to find out the possible service life of oil for economic reasons, :eh: .

Maybe it's a free service?

Shane

 

[indyfjr]

LSUBOY,

I've used Blackstone Labs since '99 for my trucks.

From past experiences, I believe they're going to tell you that the factory interval is conservative as long as everything is functioning properly.

Also you'll see higher level for metals and silicon until the engine wears-in.

(My truck levels didn't settle down until after 30,000 miles.)

They send their results via e-mail (pdf) unless you request a hard copy.

You can also call them with specific question and they'll alert you if something appears abnormal.

Craig

 

[LSUBOY]

Will have my mind made up as to particulars {in 2-4 weeks or so} about how to run test;  However, this is what I am looking for:
1.  How long can I run Rotella T with the same filter

2.  How long can I run Rotella T with a filter change & top-off every 1500, 2000, 2500 and up

And, since I run Golden Spectro on long trips

1.  How long can I run GS with the same filter

2.  How long can I run GS with a filter change & top-off @ 1500, 2000, 2500 and on

@LSUBOY,

Not to diss on your quest for oil knowledge nirvana, but, I don't get it.

If you're going to spend the money to have oil tested at the frequencies in your earlier post, what difference does it make how long you can run with any of them?

By "long trips" do you mean that the service life of the oil will be in danger, and that changing oil on the road is not an option you would consider?

I mean, if you just want to know, cool, but if your trying to find out the possible service life of oil for economic reasons, :eh: .

Maybe it's a free service?

Shane

Okay, here's what I wanna kno.....And, it's all based on two things:

1. I change my oil at about 3 to 4 thousand miles when at home

2. I take at least "2" ( 5 to 8) thousand mile trips a year and for those trips I drop-in some Golden Spectro and carry an extra quart with me. When I am 1/2 way thru that trip I put a new filter on and top off with GS.

Now the reason for running said tests {which, by the way are farely inexpensive @ 20 bucks} is because I WANT to know how long I can run my regular dino Shell Rotella T.

AND

When I make a 5 to 7 thousand mile trip, I will get the Golden Spectro Analyzed upon return home and then know how Golden Spector handels a 7,000 mile trip.

AFTER all is said and done I will know

A. How good {REALLY IS} Rotella T? or how bad

B. Can I run it on LONG trips?

C. How good is tha Walmart Super Tech Filter

D. How much of Golden Spectro's Quality will still be there after 7,000 miles

What you think?

 

[C&C]

This is what I think. I think you are very aware of maintenance items and proper change intervals. By being conscientious, I expect your oil analysis' to be well in the acceptable range and your engine will incur vertually no wear. I will await your findings and will be very interested in the results. And thanks for doing this.

 

[radman]

I think it's great that some idi.....pioneer wants to run oil forever for research purposes. I look forward to your report.

 

[donaldb]

Lemeno LSUBOY, keep us posted w/results. I changed over at 5k to golden spectro 20W50 and still using yamaha filters---w/user id of LSUBOY I suppose you have some experience w/our warm climate down here, heavy weight year round has become my personal choice. Thanx for your effort, I look forward to seeing the results.

 

[jestal]

There are a number or reasons for changing the oil....contamination (gas, water, by products of combustion, soot, dust, etc...) build up, acid build up, depletion of the antiwear properties of the oil, etc.....

The "problem" with Blackstone and some of the commercial labs is that they really don't tell you how "used up" the oil is. Most of them rely on the acid level of the oil (TAN) to approximate the oil life left or how "used up" the oil is.

For short trips and city/urban driving/riding the oil's useful life is usually determined by contamination build up and acid formation. Long trip oil life is generally dicated by depletion of the anti-wear package in the oil...depletion of the ZDP anti-wear additive in the oil.

Taking data from short trip riding and then using it to approximate oil life on long trips is comparing apples to oranges and really should NOT be done.

The factor that GM has determined, from years and years of in-house oil analysis that eventually determines the long term life of the oil is the amount of anti-wear additives still present in the oil. The GM Oil Life Monitor is based on the gradual depletion of the anti-wear additives in the oil as the fundamental measurement and then modified by factors affected from short trip driving.

If Blackstone tells you the oil is "used up" based on the TAN and you are doing short trips it means absolutely NOTHING about the life of the oil on a long trip. NOTHING.

What you really need from Blackstone (or other labs) is the concentration of an element in the ZDP...such as zinc....from the new oil and then from each sample FROM THE SAME BATCH OF OIL. That would then allow you to start to theorize as to the percentage of the ZDP that has been used up or depleted. That info is tough to get and when you can get it it is tough to get accurately. GM couldn't find an outside lab that could do it consistently and does all the analysis work on critical oil samples internally.

If you really want long trip oil life estimates then take samples on a long trip and have them analyzed. Difficult, I know. That is why GM did the research and developed the oil life monitor so that the customer wouldn't have to. Not that you can get that on your bike...but....don't rely on the TAN that Blackstone provides to estimate oil life necessarily. Under some conditions it is....but under other conditions it is not. And it is not necessarily the worst case indicator in either situation.

What is the logic for using one of the Delo/Delvac/Rotella heavy duty diesel oils around town and during daily use and then switching to Golden Spectro for long trips?? I don't understand. I would use the Delo/Delvac/Rotella for the long trips due to the heavy duty anti-wear package that they have.

The problem with any manufacturer's oil change spec (4000 miles, etc...) is that it is never accurate for any given riding schedule. Depending on the riding schedule the oil change interval that is appropriate could be anywhere from 1000 to 10,000 miles in all likelyhood. The manufacturers change interval is a best fit recommendation that probably has a lot of safety factor in it. It is just impossible to make an oil change recommmendation that is correct for everyone.

I would say there is little or no risk to running a long change interval of 8K-9K miles on a long trip with an FJR. Just me personally, but given what tears up oil on long trips the heavy duty type oils should be fine for that. If there is any doubt, pack along a pint of GM EOS (Engine Oil Supplement) and add that halfway to the crankcase. The EOS is heavily fortified with the ZDP anti-wear additive that is going to deplete on the long trip and determine oil life. Spiking the oil with a dose of EOS will replenish the ZDP and increase oil life under those conditions significantly. Acid build up and moisture and such are just not going to be an issue in those situations.

The oil analysis numbers are interesting but a big waste of time and money in my opinion. Of course, if you access BITOG you will be a "believer" in oil analysis...because the regular posters are selling oil analysis and will convince you it is a necessary thing and that you cannot live without it and that it is the holy grail and such. Forget it. The oil analysis "data" can be worse than useless....it can be misleading if you do not understand exactly what they are measuring and the info provided. There is no single measurement in oil analysis that can be relied on to determine oil life. It is a complicated science.

The other problem with oil analysis is that it is unbelieveably difficult to get a good, representative sample of engine oil. When doing research work to develop the oil life monitor that was one of the biggest challenges. Just draining the oil and dipping out a sample is pointless. If you are looking for water or glycol (coolant) contamination for example, the coolant will almost instantly separate from the oil and you will NEVER see any in the sample you took...it is all at the bottom of the drain pan. We would run a line and a valve from the hi pressure oil gallery. When it was time to take a sample the line would be put into the oil fill port and the valve opened allowing the oil circulating thru the engine to purge the line and THEN take a sample of the homogenized oil that was circulating thru the engine. That is a good sample. Others are can easily be misleading. Misleading enough that I consider the commercial oil analysis and samples from the field pretty useless.

There is a reason this thread is in this category.....LOL.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Not so fast, jestal. Oil analysis has been a valuable tool for fleets for decades. Certainly, you're post is mostly correct in the points made. But, (not having an on-board OLM) OA works if the (necessary) complete maintenence record is a part of the program. If one were to maintain a record of oil analysis data over a long period of time -- many samples many tens of thousands of miles -- a pattern would become apparent and oil/filter change intervals could be decided upon from parts per million of wear metals and insolubles data. I agree, tho, with those that claim that it may not be "cost effective" in the case of an indivdual motorcycle. "Cost effective" doesn't lessen its veracity/utility.

I also agree, a "one-shot" oil analysis can be pretty worthless -- unless there's a "catastrophy" (and, then it's still pretty worthless). But, think fleet operation and preventative maintenence and it makes sense. For FJR riders -- if we were all involved the data may, then, become information/knowledge.

As for a "representative sample" -- an inexpensive mighty-vac unit sucking thru the fill hole would do just fine (lacking fleet type pressure/check valve units). IMHO

 

[jestal]

Yea, my comments were pertaining to the average one-off oil analysis situation.

Even in a fleet, very long term, stable, repetitive analysis must be done and recorded and the results watched by a very knowlegeable person. Statistically, it is still pretty hard to prove fleet results. I think it gives more people a warm and fuzzy feeling than anything.

By the time a singular problem shows up and can be identified and correlated in an oil analysis situation the "problem" is usually already been identified by other means.

The fact is that oils are generally pretty good and the infamous "oil related failures" are very few and very far between. The likelyhood of having a failure that is caused by oil or could be prevented by an oil change is very very slight. In the case of fleets, if there was a single overriding problem with the powerplant that manifested itself in some way in the lubricate qualities then possibly oil analysis could help.....but that is work the engine developer should have done, not the fleet operator.

I still think that most all oil analysis programs are more for piece of mind than to really accomplish anything. I could be wrong but I have never seen a situation where oil analysis really pointed to a problem or situation that could have been mitigated by an oil change or other lubricant related intervention.

The suction method up the dipstick works OK only if you use a small tube down the dipstick and not the dipstick tube itself AND the engine is warmed up thoroughtly AND RUNNING when the sample is taken. Contaminants in the oil can stratify very very quickly when the engine is shut off so to get a good homogenous sample of the oil the engine must be running.

I saw one situation where a test engine was run on a very cold weather, housewife (extremely short run/short trip usage). The oil analysis showed that the oil was doing pretty good.....until the engine failed. There was over 2 inches of water in the bottom of the oil pan and the water finally submerged the pickup and froze and blocked the oil supplyon the next cold start. The "sample" was being taken by sucking some oil from the dipstick near the top of the sump and no water was being seen. Extreme case, for sure, but just goes to show that the sample technique makes or breaks the oil analysis.

All of the oil or lubrication system related problems I have worked on over the years involve car or truck engines, not motorcycles. The motorcycle duty cycle is much easier on oil in some respects (no cold weather/cold starts to speak of) and harder in others (lubricating gear box, shearing down of the oil by gears, clutch operation and contamination, etc.) so I have to be carefull with blanket statements about what works and what doesn't. Likely there are cases to be made for oil analysis and special motorcycle oils and such. My main point is to not take the oil analysis data as gospel. It can be worse than useless...it can be very misleading.

BTW....I would be very very hesitant to make oil change intervals from fleet data based on wear metal concentration. Maybe it would be good for future engines in the fleet but once wear metals concentrations start to move in the samples the engine has suffered some wear damage due to depleted oil. That is specifically why I would want to know the anti-wear/ZDP depletion percentage for the oil in the sample...something not available in normal oil analysis. You want to base your change intervals in long haul operation on the changing the oil before it is used up and the engine starts to wear...not based on wear particles showing up before the oil is changed.

Also consider that every engine should be considered different regarding oil life. Current automotive engines are designed to not "use up" or deplete the oil rapidly allowing for dramatically extended change intervals. Roller cam followers, roller rocker arms, gerotor oil pumps, crank driven ignitions (no distributor or distributor or oil pump drive gears) and other features all contribute to long oil life, less oil depletion and an engine design that is very very tolerant of depleted oil. The oil change analysis for such an engine doesn't apply to a mid-60's muscle car engine with rubbing element tappets, distributor gears, spur gear oil pumps, etc.... That always bothers me when someone looks at data from one engine and attempts to apply the results (in terms of predicting oil life) for other engines.

Probably the nicest thing about a regular oil sampling and analysis program is that it insures an add of fresh oil on a regular basis (to make up for what the sample removed). That spike of additives from the fresh oil added to the sump goes a long way to improving the actual life of the oil in the sump.

When long term research is done regarding developing oil life monitors the sample make up oil must be "used oil" of the same vintage/life/hours/duty cycle for the data to be relevant. This is also very difficult to do as you need two engines running...one to sample and another one to age the oil for sample makeup. We would often run engines to long intervals and save the drain oil at that interval for adds when samples were taken from the test engines to establish the true oil life of a fixed volume of oil in the sump. If a pint were taken as a sample every 1000 miles, for example, you would have added 5 quarts of fresh oil to the sump for sample makeup over 10,000 miles. The oil life you were measuring on the later samples would be for oil that was pretty new....not 10,000 mile oil. Getting a pure 10,000 mile oil sample is harder than you think!! So, adding fresh oil to make up for the sample program is probably more beneficial than the sampling and analysis program.

 

[kaitsdad]

Thank You, Jestal.

This is the reason we have this forum. Excellent information.

:clap: