Reverse Trike

[wfooshee]

If that's the case (and I'm not sure it is) then you don't want it a whole lot lower, either.

I say I'm not sure because I'm wondering if the "downhill" side balances the pressure of the "uphill" side. If the pump was trying to push water up to a tank you'd have a serious pressure problem against it from the weight of the water, but since it's not a tank, and has a return side, the weight of that water is actually applying flow pressure behind the pump. I think. Maybe.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

If that's the case (and I'm not sure it is) then you don't want it a whole lot lower, either.
I say I'm not sure because I'm wondering if the "downhill" side balances the pressure of the "uphill" side. If the pump was trying to push water up to a tank you'd have a serious pressure problem against it from the weight of the water, but since it's not a tank, and has a return side, the weight of that water is actually applying flow pressure behind the pump. I think. Maybe.

I'm with you on this 'wfooshee' -- many coolant pumps on engines don't appear to be too sophisticated (pump-wise)? Alot of older ones are just vanes in a housing to help move coolant. Many early cooling systems operated on the 'thermo-syphon' principle -- where hot coolant rose through the system to the radiator (where cooled) and then flowed back to the bottom all on its own (sans pump).

 

[Nitrotate]

good information guys! thanks. the location of the radiator will be at the same elevation as the original location so I'm not too worried about that. Keep the thoughts coming though it's really nice to get other opinions.

 

[fjrwalker]

I wouldn't anticipate any problems moving the radiator to the front. A quick check of Toyota part numbers shows the same water pump used in the front engine 112hp Corolla GTS and the mid engine MR2, which has the radiator in the front. (even the supercharged, 145hp MR2 uses the same pump).

I'm not as confident that using heater cores is a good plan, as they have much more restricted flow rates.

 

[wfooshee]

More restricted than a car radiator, but more than a bike radiator? If the inlets and outlets are comparable, I'd think flow is comparable.

Easy to check, though. Use whatever adapters you need to hook a garden hose to it (I'm thinking a short hose with a hose thread on one end, and just clamped to the radiator inlet, reducers if needed) and see how long it takes each to fill a bucket with the faucet wide open. If the heater core takes significantly longer than the FJR's radiator then don't use it.

 

[Intech]

good information guys! thanks. the location of the radiator will be at the same elevation as the original location so I'm not too worried about that. Keep the thoughts coming though it's really nice to get other opinions.

Many comments about the height the pump has to overcome. That is what I refered to in my first post as "system head". The head pressure is the basically the weight of the water against the system usually measured in inches of water column. The greater the difference between the highest and lowest point, the greater the head. I wasn't sure if you were going to encorporate the FJR thermostat, but mentioned one as it should be part of the system. Many excellent comments about radiator selection. If you maintain the original system head you can experiment with radiators and heater cores. I will be interseted to see the outcome. I would suggest monitoring temperature throughout the system with a temperature gun to verify flow once you get it going.

 

[Pepperell]

More restricted than a car radiator, but more than a bike radiator? If the inlets and outlets are comparable, I'd think flow is comparable.
Easy to check, though. Use whatever adapters you need to hook a garden hose to it (I'm thinking a short hose with a hose thread on one end, and just clamped to the radiator inlet, reducers if needed) and see how long it takes each to fill a bucket with the faucet wide open. If the heater core takes significantly longer than the FJR's radiator then don't use it.

Uh, you might want to reduce the pressure from the tap, typically 40#'s or so, down to 15-20 -ish or whatever the radiator/core is designed to accommodate. Perhaps use a jug and a funnel and let gravity do it's stuff.

 

[Nitrotate]

Ok guys haven’t posted for a while but I have been working. I’m in the long tedious phase of all the little details like wiring and locking things down so I can get ready to drive it. I could probably drive it by this weekend but we’re going to be out of town so it will be another week and then I’ll be able to get some video of me driving it!!

Here’s a few pics of my current progress;

Got the battery mounted

Started getting the rats nest of a wiring harness built, 58 wires total!

Here’s where I routed the shifter cable;

 

[08FJR4ME]

Yer a better man than me Gunga-din. To much spegetti going on there.

It is moot at this point but I am just wondering iffen it would have been easier to adapt the Feejer handle bars and controls instead of buying all the after market stuff?

Dave

 

[Nitrotate]

Yer a better man than me Gunga-din. To much spegetti going on there.
It is moot at this point but I am just wondering iffen it would have been easier to adapt the Feejer handle bars and controls instead of buying all the after market stuff?

Dave

Not really for the design I'm going with no but everything I've done so far really hasn't been difficult, everything has gone pretty smoothly. I'm not too far from road testing and finalizing everything and then I get to take it all apart again and powdercoat everything then put it all together permanently.

 

[Nitrotate]

Ok guys so I'm all done wiring and everything works fine except I'm still having some little issues with the motor being killed when put in gear so I need some people to jog my mind...

I'm 99.9% sure it doesn't have anything to do with my wiring and the reason why is that the only two wires that "should" impact the engine kill relay are the side-stand switch and the clutch switch. As I extended all the harness wires to the front of the vehicle, I was VERY meticulous and used a multimeter to check for continuity on every single wire one by one as I wired them to ensure an exact match up to the stock wires.

Side-stand switch wires: are located back under the gas tank and I didn't touch any of the harness back there at all. All I've done with these two wires is connect them together so the bike thinks the stand is "UP".

Clutch switch wires: are located within some of the harness that I did extend, however the VERY FIRST wires I cut on this bike were these two wires and connected them together so that the bike thinks the clutch is "IN".

With these two sets of wires connected the bike should turn the starter over (even when in gear).

My problem is, the bike won't start IN NEUTRAL when the "side stand is up" (wires connected) and the "Clutch is out" (wires apart)...??? It will start when IN NEUTRAL and the clutch wires ARE connected but then dies when I put it in gear. (FYI, yes the rear wheel is in the air so it can roll).

THE BIG QUESTION: Does anyone know of any other engine kill "triggers" that this bike might have?? I've looked over the wiring diagram and can't tell for sure. Or could there be some reason that the bike could think the side-stand is still down even with the two wires connected, maybe a computer reset of some type is needed?? :unknw:

 

[ionbeam]

For the side stand and neutral, check diAG codes 20 & 21. Also check for any stored codes because IIRC, there are one or two codes that can be set because of the side stand and neutral light. It is possible for the neutral light to be on yet the ECU isn't reading it and the diAG codes will sort this out. Checking the diAG codes will conclusively demonstrate that the ECU is getting and processing the voltage states of these items.

The clutch switch does not have a diAG readout that I know of so you need to go to the B/Y wire right at the ECU connector and see if you can see it switch right at the connector. Seeing it switch at the clutch switch isn't good enough.

 

[Nitrotate]

For the side stand and neutral, check diAG codes 20 & 21. Also check for any stored codes because IIRC, there are one or two codes that can be set because of the side stand and neutral light. It is possible for the neutral light to be on yet the ECU isn't reading it and the diAG codes will sort this out. Checking the diAG codes will conclusively demonstrate that the ECU is getting and processing the voltage states of these items.
The clutch switch does not have a diAG readout that I know of so you need to go to the B/Y wire right at the ECU connector and see if you can see it switch right at the connector. Seeing it switch at the clutch switch isn't good enough.

Ok, yeah I checked codes 20 & 21 but all they tell me is "ON" or "OFF" and I am getting the correct responses for Neutral (code 21) and for the sidestand (code 20).

I'm not sure right this second how to check the stored codes so I'll have to try to look that up.

As for the clutch check at the ECU, yes I'll do that, thank you for that thought!

 

[wfooshee]

The clutch switch will not kill a running engine, it only inhibits starting if the bike is in gear. Pull the clutch, you can start. The relay you are referring to, which has connections to the neutral switch, the sidestand switch, and the clutch switch, is the starter cutoff relay, which is not part of ANYTHING once the engine's running.

While running, the neutral switch and the sidestand switch have to dance together, and the clutch is not part of the equation. If the engine is running and the bike is NOT in neutral, deploying the sidestand shuts it off. There is no condition under which the clutch switch can kill a running engine.

I would think that with a trike you have no need of the sidestand switch. Now if I could just remember if it's normally open or normally closed, I could tell you whether to leave it disconnected or just short the wires to it. I think it's normally open (no connection when sidestand is up, backwards from what you're using) so you'd not need to connect it at all with a trike. It serves no purpose, and has no function since the sidestand would never be used anyway.

Then without the sidestand switch there should be nothing except the key or the kill switch (right thumb on the handlebars of real bikes ) to shut the motor off. With a trike, you should be able to start in gear with the clutch pulled, or in neutral even without the clutch.

Make sure you haven't confused the handlebar's kill switch wiring with one of the other switches, or that you've got the sidestand switch wiring backwards, i.e. connected for up instead of not connected for up.

Now I've got myself confused about the connected/not connected state of the sidestand switch, so my whole post may be full of poo-poo.

Regardless, the clutch switch cannot kill the motor. And it almost sounds like the neutral switch is fubar'd somewhere, but you're seeing the right code in the diag screen.

I'm starting to understand your confusion.

 

[rogdeb]

I don't even pretend to understand all the tech talk here ,, but jeeeeeez !! An AMAZING project. If only I were that skilled.

 

[wfooshee]

OK, a little playing, and I was full of poo-poo when I said the sidestand switch might be normally open. It's normally closed.

You said you connected the wires together to simulate a connected switch. What you need to do is find the blue wire/green stripe at the starter cutoff relay and just ground it. If you're looking at the end of the relay's harness connector, with the notch at the top, you have three empty spaces at the right, two on the top row, one on the bottom. The sidestand switch wire that should be grounded is the bottom left. The neutral switch wire, grounded in neutral, is the third from the left on the bottom (sky blue.) The second and fourth on the bottom (either side of the neutral switch wire) are the clutch switch, they should show connected to each other with the clutch lever pulled (or pedal depressed, in your case.)

That relay has a bunch of diodes inside it which make up its logic tree (neutral=OK, not neutral requires clutch pull and sidestand up) but also feeds the neutral and sidestand switches to the rest of the bike. If that relay is fubar'd the ECU may be getting wrong information from the switches. I don't know if someone nearby can lend you his relay long enough to check it out. It's easy to get to, under the seat.

The connector for the sidestand switch is a blue connector under the tank, on the left side. When you say you connected the wires together, you connected the bike side, not the switch side, right? If you left the bike side connector open, you'd get what you're describing, with the bike thinking the sidestand is always down. (But that doesn't explain the "correct" readings on the diag screen. . . . .)

Tests, assuming you get the grounds and connections I described above, namely the lower left pin is grounded with sidestand up, the third pin is grounded when in neutral, and the second and fourth pins connect to each other with the clutch operated: Remove the seat, bike in first gear, sidestand up (wires connected), turn the ignition on, do not start. Have someone work the clutch back and forth while you listen for the relay clicking. It should click as the clutch moves in and out.

Release the clutch. Work the shifter between neutral and first. (No other gears!!!!) The relay should click as it goes in and out of neutral. Might be hard to hear with the shifter clicking, but you can feel it if you put your finger on the relay. The clutch lever should have no effect while it's in neutral, but should click the relay while it's in first.

Now disconnect the sidestand switch wires to simulate sidestand down. Relay should still click between first and neutral, but the clutch lever should have no effect in either. While in first, the sidestand switch wires should have no effect by themselves, but if the clutch is pulled (pedal depressed) connecting and disconnecting the sidestand should click the relay.

None of that has anything to do with a running bike, it's just the starter cutoff relay being checked. Something is wrong with yours if you have to use the clutch even if it's in neutral, then it dies when you go into gear.

You haven't said what happens if you start, then release the clutch while still in neutral. Does it continue to run? At that point the clutch lever should have no effect at all, and if it dies then something is definitely amiss.

I suspect a bad cutoff relay, just because so many things go through there to the rest of the bike.

 

[Nitrotate]

OK, a little playing, and I was full of poo-poo when I said the sidestand switch might be normally open. It's normally closed.
You said you connected the wires together to simulate a connected switch. What you need to do is find the blue wire/green stripe at the starter cutoff relay and just ground it. If you're looking at the end of the relay's harness connector, with the notch at the top, you have three empty spaces at the right, two on the top row, one on the bottom. The sidestand switch wire that should be grounded is the bottom left. The neutral switch wire, grounded in neutral, is the third from the left on the bottom (sky blue.) The second and fourth on the bottom (either side of the neutral switch wire) are the clutch switch, they should show connected to each other with the clutch lever pulled (or pedal depressed, in your case.)

That relay has a bunch of diodes inside it which make up its logic tree (neutral=OK, not neutral requires clutch pull and sidestand up) but also feeds the neutral and sidestand switches to the rest of the bike. If that relay is fubar'd the ECU may be getting wrong information from the switches. I don't know if someone nearby can lend you his relay long enough to check it out. It's easy to get to, under the seat.

The connector for the sidestand switch is a blue connector under the tank, on the left side. When you say you connected the wires together, you connected the bike side, not the switch side, right? If you left the bike side connector open, you'd get what you're describing, with the bike thinking the sidestand is always down. (But that doesn't explain the "correct" readings on the diag screen. . . . .)

Tests, assuming you get the grounds and connections I described above, namely the lower left pin is grounded with sidestand up, the third pin is grounded when in neutral, and the second and fourth pins connect to each other with the clutch operated: Remove the seat, bike in first gear, sidestand up (wires connected), turn the ignition on, do not start. Have someone work the clutch back and forth while you listen for the relay clicking. It should click as the clutch moves in and out.

Release the clutch. Work the shifter between neutral and first. (No other gears!!!!) The relay should click as it goes in and out of neutral. Might be hard to hear with the shifter clicking, but you can feel it if you put your finger on the relay. The clutch lever should have no effect while it's in neutral, but should click the relay while it's in first.

Now disconnect the sidestand switch wires to simulate sidestand down. Relay should still click between first and neutral, but the clutch lever should have no effect in either. While in first, the sidestand switch wires should have no effect by themselves, but if the clutch is pulled (pedal depressed) connecting and disconnecting the sidestand should click the relay.

None of that has anything to do with a running bike, it's just the starter cutoff relay being checked. Something is wrong with yours if you have to use the clutch even if it's in neutral, then it dies when you go into gear.

You haven't said what happens if you start, then release the clutch while still in neutral. Does it continue to run? At that point the clutch lever should have no effect at all, and if it dies then something is definitely amiss.

I suspect a bad cutoff relay, just because so many things go through there to the rest of the bike.

Wow, thank you very much for taking the time to type all this out, it's greatly appreciated! I'm getting pretty frustrated with it and this helps me slow down and think things through better. I haven't been able to go out to the garage in a few days but hopefully tonight while I'm powder coating some stuff I'll have some time to check all the items you've mentioned here and then I'll report back on my findings.

Talk to you soon...

 

[Patriot]

not much help here, but when my sidestand switch failed, I jumped the two terminals/wires and the bike worked fine; except it could go with the sidestand down. <when I realized the folly of my actions with the strong advice of the forum 6 months later, and the at risk/vulnerable state I was in, I replaced the switch with a new one. It would suck to high side in a left turn with the stand down.>

 

[Nitrotate]

OK, a little playing, and I was full of poo-poo when I said the sidestand switch might be normally open. It's normally closed.
You said you connected the wires together to simulate a connected switch. What you need to do is find the blue wire/green stripe at the starter cutoff relay and just ground it. If you're looking at the end of the relay's harness connector, with the notch at the top, you have three empty spaces at the right, two on the top row, one on the bottom. The sidestand switch wire that should be grounded is the bottom left. The neutral switch wire, grounded in neutral, is the third from the left on the bottom (sky blue.) The second and fourth on the bottom (either side of the neutral switch wire) are the clutch switch, they should show connected to each other with the clutch lever pulled (or pedal depressed, in your case.)

That relay has a bunch of diodes inside it which make up its logic tree (neutral=OK, not neutral requires clutch pull and sidestand up) but also feeds the neutral and sidestand switches to the rest of the bike. If that relay is fubar'd the ECU may be getting wrong information from the switches. I don't know if someone nearby can lend you his relay long enough to check it out. It's easy to get to, under the seat.

The connector for the sidestand switch is a blue connector under the tank, on the left side. When you say you connected the wires together, you connected the bike side, not the switch side, right? If you left the bike side connector open, you'd get what you're describing, with the bike thinking the sidestand is always down. (But that doesn't explain the "correct" readings on the diag screen. . . . .)

Tests, assuming you get the grounds and connections I described above, namely the lower left pin is grounded with sidestand up, the third pin is grounded when in neutral, and the second and fourth pins connect to each other with the clutch operated: Remove the seat, bike in first gear, sidestand up (wires connected), turn the ignition on, do not start. Have someone work the clutch back and forth while you listen for the relay clicking. It should click as the clutch moves in and out.

Release the clutch. Work the shifter between neutral and first. (No other gears!!!!) The relay should click as it goes in and out of neutral. Might be hard to hear with the shifter clicking, but you can feel it if you put your finger on the relay. The clutch lever should have no effect while it's in neutral, but should click the relay while it's in first.

Now disconnect the sidestand switch wires to simulate sidestand down. Relay should still click between first and neutral, but the clutch lever should have no effect in either. While in first, the sidestand switch wires should have no effect by themselves, but if the clutch is pulled (pedal depressed) connecting and disconnecting the sidestand should click the relay.

None of that has anything to do with a running bike, it's just the starter cutoff relay being checked. Something is wrong with yours if you have to use the clutch even if it's in neutral, then it dies when you go into gear.

You haven't said what happens if you start, then release the clutch while still in neutral. Does it continue to run? At that point the clutch lever should have no effect at all, and if it dies then something is definitely amiss.

I suspect a bad cutoff relay, just because so many things go through there to the rest of the bike.

Ok so here's a little update; I did some of the tests like you said and I DO get a relay click when shifting from neutral to first and back, however I'm not getting ANY relay clicks when connecting/disconnecting the clutch or the sidestand wires as you indicated above regardless of neutral or 1st gear position...?? So maybe the relay is bad??

And one other thing I didn't mention before is that the neutral light has never worked even from when I first got the bike. I initially assumed it was a burned bulb in the instrument cluster but tonight I pulled the bulb and put it in a different socket and it worked so that means the bulb isn't receiving the signal however the bike definitely does know it's in neutral or not so I don't know but I'm going to look through the wiring diagram and see if maybe I can narrow down where the signal is being lost. FYI though, I don't think this has anything to do with the bike dying when put in gear because prior to last week the bike performed correctly accept for the neutral light not working.

One last thing, if I connect (pull clutch in) the clutch wires and start the bike in neutral then disconnect the clutch wires the bike dies. (this relates to your last sentence just before you say you suspect a bad relay). So I'm starting to think it could be the relay...

 

[wfooshee]

Correctly wired, the clutch switch cannot kill the bike, only inhibit starting, and then only if the bike is in gear. That shows that it's either a bad relay, or wired incorrectly.

In neutral, the clutch and sidestand switches won't do anything at the relay. In gear, the sidestand needs to be grounded (wires connected) and the clutch switch needs to be connected.

Ya know, it's almost sounding like wires are going to the wrong connector pins at the relay if it isn't the relay itself. Get an ohmmeter onto that connector and test the pins like I outlined earlier. Looking at the end of the connector, with the notch at the top, the lower left pin should ground when the sidestand wires are connected. In your build, it wouldn't hurt to just run that wire straight to ground to force the "sidestand up" reading, since you'll never use the sidestand. The third pin (sky blue wire) should ground when it's in neutral. The second and fourth pins should connect to each other (not to ground) when the clutch is depressed (clutch switch closed.)

If those are right, then the relay is bad. The sidestand switch and the neutral switch are connected to the relay directly, and the relay passes those connection on to the ECU, which sounds like where the breakdown is. That could explain the neutral light failure, even though the bike seems to know when it's in neutral as far as starting goes.