SCAB DOWN!

[Toecutter]

I'm growing a bit concerned about all the posts concerning ABS. My 05 has ABS and I am a great proponent of ABS. BUT...
People reading this thread should not assume that ABS would have prevented SCAB's spill. It MIGHT have helped, but it would not likely have prevented him from going down.

As the one who mentioned ABS, I will say I agree ABS is no panacia. It's just that I read this bit:

Hey, ScabYou left a pretty good skidmark on the road. You got one to match in you pants?

If he left a skid mark it suggests a wheel was locked. Somehow I can't picture a sideways sliding rolling wheel leaving a skid mark, although it would leave a trail in gravel. That's why I mentioned ABS. Which should give you as much traction (steering and braking) as is available.

ABS won't do anything for a wheel unless the operator is applying the brakes, as all it does is interrupt the brake application when the processor detects that the wheel is not turning. A sideways sliding tire doesn't need brake application to get it sliding.
That said, I loves my ABS and won't buy another vehicle without it. I've seen too much.

A few years back, while responding code 3, we approached an intersection against a red light pretty hot. The cross traffic had a 50mph speed limit, which in Fresno means 65. A car, thinking I was going to bust it into his path (not sure how he got that idea ), panic-stopped. There was a BMW 5 series sedan behind him, not expecting it. We saw him coming, and prepared to watch him plow right through the stopped vehicle. He mashed the brakes and got it hauled down, stopping about 6 inches from the back of the other car, in what we both thought was an impossibly short stopping distance. ABS rocks!

This crash was more of a "smack-down" on the right.

Did you hit your head? If so, how hard and in what kind of helmet?

 

[mcatrophy]

As for how the wife took the news; I did the only smart act of the day there. Since she was at work and wouldn't be in until about 9pm, I waited to break the news. When she arrived, I jumped up, gave up the hugs and kisses, did a little ballerina spin, and asked her: "How do I look?" She said: "You look fine." That's when I told her I went down. It saved her from having to freak-out from the news.
Gear: I was multilayered for the day. Full leather outer pants, leather jacket, leather gloves. I don't think gear was a major player in this one as speed was down and any sliding would have had to be minimal. This crash was more of a "smack-down" on the right.

As for ABS: I don't know. I am sure it would have helped, but I can't say it would have saved the crash. The big traction issue may have been the overinflated tire so I don't know that ABS could have compensated for that.

My retrospective opinion is that there were contributing factors to this smack-down and not a single issue.

First: I was running at prolly 90% of my abilities. This may be fine and dandy on a new road when you keep the rider in front within sight, giving you indication of road direction and condition. When I lost sight of the leader, I should have backed off. MISTAKE.

Second: I did not listen to the bike. Twice prior, in nice sweepers, perfect road surface, in right-handers, I felt the front slip a tad. The bike was trying to tell me something and I ignored. I should have either spent the time to figure out the issue or backed off of her. I did neither. MISTAKE.

Thirdly: I have ridden in cold weather. But mulling it over, nearly ALL my cold weather experience is straight-up commuter-type riding. Big difference than what we were doing Saturday. I didn't take this into account or place enough importance on this issue. MISTAKE.

Fourthly: There was a major mistake made the night before the ride. I don't know what happened with the tire pressure. I have checked the guage against 2 others. I even froze the guage to see if the guage would misread at a low temp. I cannot reproduce the guage misread. Therefore, by reason of deduction, I am the only link left in that chain. I did something wrong. I don't know what, but it had to be me. MISTAKE.

So, I think the error on tire pressure was the biggest physical factor but not the cause of the crash. Human error gets the trophy here. I kept thinking; the bike will do this, or the bike will do that. It has before. But something had changed. The bike tried to tell me. I did not listen. You never really know anything.

Scab -

Excellent summary.

I particularly like the "wife treatment".

Your analysis sounds very good, I think we all can learn from it, so thanks.

 

[Scab]

Did you hit your head? If so, how hard and in what kind of helmet?

Can't say for sure. The impact was mostly on the right shoulder, with hands still on the grips. The head could have easily moved that far and the neck is pretty stiff, but the helmet shows no signs. However, I landed in pretty thick organic material so it prolly wouldn't show. My helmet is a DOT full face.

 

[05fjrBluedevil]

sorry to hear about you having an accident, glad the bike received minor damage, glad you seem to be okay.

Mike

 

[donaldb]

Ooooops! hate to hear about the smack down Scab. Just read about it this a.m. that is what I get for not having a computer at home. Glad your ok. Sounds like I got hurt worse than you over the weekend. Changing oil in dad's toyota pickup. I noticed the oil had not been changed since 2/20/05 and he had only put 1200 miles on it since the last change. Went to loosen the drain plug......it had siezed due to the being almost 2 years since the last change and when it broke loose I busted the top of my right hand on a crossmember........ouch........sh*t.........dam..........hell, got a knot on the top of my hand the size of a ping pong ball and cant touch it with out another string of cuss words.

If the weather holds out for the up coming weekend I'm planing a bike ride over to Leeds to visit/check up on my dad. One of these days we will hook up..........but I'm riding in the back........don't worry about me I catch up. Glad your ok!

 

[mcatrophy]

I'm growing a bit concerned about all the posts concerning ABS. My 05 has ABS and I am a great proponent of ABS. BUT...
People reading this thread should not assume that ABS would have prevented SCAB's spill. It MIGHT have helped, but it would not likely have prevented him from going down.

As the one who mentioned ABS, I will say I agree ABS is no panacia. It's just that I read this bit:

Hey, ScabYou left a pretty good skidmark on the road. You got one to match in you pants?

If he left a skid mark it suggests a wheel was locked. Somehow I can't picture a sideways sliding rolling wheel leaving a skid mark, although it would leave a trail in gravel. That's why I mentioned ABS. Which should give you as much traction (steering and braking) as is available.

ABS won't do anything for a wheel unless the operator is applying the brakes, as all it does is interrupt the brake application when the processor detects that the wheel is not turning. A sideways sliding tire doesn't need brake application to get it sliding.

To be pedantic, the ABS comes in when it notices the wheel is slowing rapidly. It relaxes the brakes well before the wheel stops. On a dry road with a normal tyre, maximum tractive effort actually occurs with about 10% slip. On a wet road, it is less slip than that. A modern ABS system will keep slip in that sort of area. As I said in a previous post, the ABS on my '06 FJR is barely noticeable, so the wheel is definately still turning at near road speed.

In a car, ABS allows full braking with steering. The car will steer wide (understeer), but still be controllable with the steering wheel.

I strongly suggest a bike is the same. If you brake while in a corner, the braking will "use up" any remaning tyre traction until it detects the wheel slowing too quickly, it will then release the brake. In this "slowing down" phase, the tyre will probably start to run wide, but it will still have grip, so the bike will tend to run wide, but not lose traction, ie. it won't skid, and definately will not leave a tyre track.

I've not tried this (wimp that I am), but I am prepared to brake in a corner if I feel I have the grip available. Maybe I will find out for sure one day.

If anyone knows better, please say so.

 

[Scab]

It should be noted too, that all this is from the "oh shit" perspective of being on the bike. Jwilly prolly had the best view as a spectator and can correct any misinformation as to what did or did not happen. Sometimes things get blurred in the heat of it all.

 

[jwilly]

First of all: I'm glad your ok Scab!! You scared the shiznit out of me on Saturday.

Ok so now for my take on the events from Saturday since I was about 80-90 feet behind Scab. The first thing that everyone needs to understand is the stretch of road we were on was very technical riding. Add to that the road was cold and in some areas has a light dusting of Sand/Salt from a freeze earlier in the week.

IMO: Ol'Scab was trying to keep up with JeffAshe who was on brand new Stradas and was really getting it. (Attn: Admins, promptly change his user name to "HaulinAshe") This combined with road conditions and tire pressure related issues caused the incident. I'm just Thankful that a car wasn't coming the opposite direction becuase the results would have been a lot worse. Would ABS have saved the day? I think it would have helped but there were more factors than just locking up the rear brake.

Glad your OK brother, I look forward to riding with you guys again real soon!

-jwilly

 

[Scab]

Where ABS would have helped, I think, was at the first realization that I was too fast for the curve. I needed to slow down before entry. When the rear locked, instinct or whatever kinda took over. There was a reaction to not lean her enough to allow the rear to wash out sideways. Me and the bike kinda straightened out and then it was a race between the brakes and the remaining pavement. This is where focus was lost and I was now committed to a straight line stop. Somewhere in here, I am sure the speed was reduced to the point where I could have prolly recommitted to the turn. But focus went out the window and the "oh shit" factor took over the controls and I ran out of pavement. I remember when the rear first locked, I tried to get out of it. But I had too much speed and went right back into the brakes. There is prolly 2 skids. A little short one and then the long, oh crap I have screwed this up skid mark. I just dunno. I have never had a bike with ABS so I don't even know what it feels like.

 

[Toecutter]

My helmet is a DOT full face.

DOT only or DOT/Snell? Brand/model?
You gonna re-use it? Mike H. would strongly sugeest you don't, me thinks (if you value the opinion of a pro racer).

 

[Scab]

The helmet is an inexpensive Vega DOT only full face. I am ashamed to say that I haven't given the head gear much afterthought in all this. But at the relative low cost, I can't see a reason to gamble on this thing. Thanks for bringing it up.

I will replace with a DOT only helmet.

 

[trimmantom]

Does anyone know what road you were on and where?

Just trying to figure since I ride north ga. a lot.

 

[mcatrophy]

Where ABS would have helped, I think, was at the first realization that I was too fast for the curve. I needed to slow down before entry. When the rear locked, instinct or whatever kinda took over. There was a reaction to not lean her enough to allow the rear to wash out sideways. Me and the bike kinda straightened out and then it was a race between the brakes and the remaining pavement. This is where focus was lost and I was now committed to a straight line stop. Somewhere in here, I am sure the speed was reduced to the point where I could have prolly recommitted to the turn. But focus went out the window and the "oh shit" factor took over the controls and I ran out of pavement. I remember when the rear first locked, I tried to get out of it. But I had too much speed and went right back into the brakes. There is prolly 2 skids. A little short one and then the long, oh crap I have screwed this up skid mark. I just dunno. I have never had a bike with ABS so I don't even know what it feels like.

Interesting. When I've been in a similar situation on my previous mount, Triumph Trophy 1200, I've always managed to go from "Oh, shit" to standing the bike up, then essentially front brake only. I've always got away with it. The only time I've failed is on the bike previous to the Trophy, a 2001 Triumph Bonneville. On that I snatched the front brake (leaning over going into a roundabout). I was very green at the time, saw a car coming round and panicked. The front washed straight out from under. That was on a dry "perfect" surface. A real lesson for me.

With no ABS, I've read many views on use of the back brake, opinions ranging from "lock the back wheel 'til you're stopped" to "Don't touch the rear brake, you can't control both brakes both at once". What seems to be the best option is to apply sufficient back brake to start weight transfer to the front, then forget about the back brake, concentrate on the front. This is helped because from "Oh, shit" to back brake application is a fraction faster than to front brake coming on (timed under controlled conditions). The front only will give you about 90% of what a very skilled and non-panicking rider might achieve with best use of both brakes.

In any case, stand the bike up to brake as hard as you can (as you did), then release the brakes and aggressively counter-steer to get back into the corner. Something to practise?

 

[Scab]

I am sure jwilly could tell you which road it was.

 

[HaulinAshe]

Scab, glad to hear you're ok. I did the same thing 7 years ago in that area on my Ducati. After reading all the replies and info so far I think we should blame Jeff....he's the only one I've actually have met. :lol:

Okay, that's it!!!

You can blame me, but you have to CATCH me first!

:lol:

Just kidding!

Does anyone know what road you were on and where?Just trying to figure since I ride north ga. a lot.

It was Hwy-60, heading northwest from the intersection with Hwy-180. We had just left the store at the intersection and were about ten minutes up Hwy-60. The section began as a left-hander that rolled into a very abrupt right-hander, all slightly downhill. There was no pocket for the right-hander and if you did not kill off your speed before entering the turn, the ass-end of the bike was going to unload.

IMHO it was one of those turns where you either read it ahead of time, or suffer the consequences after the fact. I don't think "technique" or "timing" would get you through the screw-up. The turn made me nervous when I saw it coming so I throttled back. Scab was pushing hard to make up time and overestimated his ride's condition/capabilities.

Again IMHO, it was not a lack of skill, it was marginal equipment whose capabilities were overestimated and overused. Scab is a damn good rider. You can tell that because he is basically okay, still living to tell the story, and man enough to say what went wrong. That makes him as good as they come.

Ashe's Law #2: Forethought is like foreplay, you never get enough.

 

[Scab]

That's the problem with riding 9/10ths. It just ain't a big leap to 11/10ths.

 

[HaulinAshe]

In any case, stand the bike up to brake as hard as you can (as you did), then release the brakes and aggressively counter-steer to get back into the corner. Something to practise?

I had exactly the scenario you described happen to me at EOM 06. My brain fart was induced by looking back to see where Grumpy was at (on my ass as if that was ever in question!). My momentary lack of forward concentration resulted in a surprise pop-up to a nasty left-hander.

I grabbed all the brake I could get. Felt the back end lift a few inches and panic set in. I managed to salvage a couple milliseconds of decent thought and released (most) of the front brakes, stomped the rears to the chatter of ABS. Then realized that I was NOT going to stop before running out of pavement. So I salvaged a couple more milliseconds of reasonable thought and shoved the bike down in an attempt to do what I could only describe as "stand on the damn seat" (although I obviously never made it there), and throttled up to make the turn.

Grumpy said I had less than 6" of asphalt left to spare when I finally made the turn. And that he was fixated on me and following me down the slope if I went down.

Group rides are challenging and bring out the best and the worst in each of us. Learn from them we do.

 

[MotorSWATCop]

Regarding ABS. It's great! My FJR is the first bike I have had w/ it and I like it.

A note though: ABS will cause a tucked front wheel if applied too heavily in a turn. Result: high side. As scab has stated; he fixated when he realized he was too hot and the bike went where he looked. I'm not knocking him in any way. I almost did the same thing at Barber when I took the CLASS. I was having trouble w/ turn 8 all day. When I thought I had it figured out I went into it Way Way way too fast. I got on the binders in my set up and saw the gravel trap and fixated. At the last second, I got my head out of my butt and rode the bike through the corner. That's the trick; break the target fixation and ride the bike through. Correct application of throttle can save you as well as ABS.

 

[HaulinAshe]

IMO: Ol'Scab was trying to keep up with JeffAshe who was on brand new Stradas and was really getting it. (Attn: Admins, promptly change his user name to "HaulinAshe")

Ooooooo... Me likey MUCH!!!

Can I have it? Can I? Can I? Huh, huh??? Pleeeezzzz?



P.S. I have a great-uncle named Jack. Yeah that's right. We Ashe(s) usually don't get cool nicknames!

 

[Grievous Angel]

I'm eventually going to make it to one of these "Alabama Group" rides.

I hereby declare that I'm the slowest guy in the group, so y'all go ahead. I'll pull up the rear, and see you at the next stop--if I get there in time. I will have the widest chicken strips in the group, and I will be proud of them.

Glad to hear you're OK Scab. I appreciate your candor.