Setting Static/Dynamic Sag

[skyway]

For me the .95kg spring felt weaker than the stock spring.  I would suggest you get vectervp1 over to your place and check your sag #'s.
There is a possibility that given the miles you get out of a set of tires, :blink: you may not have noticed the difference?

My Wilbers is definitely stiffer than the stock shock that I replaced at 36,000 miles. The first time I took it off the centerstand I realized it was stiffer as the rear did not compress as much. It felt stiffer riding also.

Also, when vectervp1 and I switched FJRs this past November on the way home from SPANK, he told me he immediately noticed a positive difference in the handling of my Wilbers equipped FJR compared to his 05 FJR with stock shock and approximately 15,000 miles. (Bikes were loaded up in rally mode though only 1 up) I noticed the difference too. That ride I believe is what convinced him to spend the $$$$ for one. And my Wilbers had about 19,000 miles on it then if that makes any difference.

It was definitely an improvement, just wondering if is truly the correct spring rate since so many others were not.

Some day I will get around to checking it. Or better yet, you should come visit and help me do that as well as install brake lines, Audiovox CC, Autocomm, Garmin GPS, and.........clean my bathroom as well.

Well now, while you may feel like its stiffer than the stock spring, the preload difference between stock and the wilbers spring is probably the difference you feel. Next time you have the chance, throw a passenger on the back and then report back how it feels.

You had better make some time to install all of your farkles and test them, before the warranty runs out.

The only bathrooms I'm cleaning are my own TYVM.

 

[skyway]

Thanks, skyway. Your reasoning seems sound. I'll get in touch with Klaus and tell him about your recommendation for the 11.0 spring. I take it from your certainty that you and I are similar in riding weight. (I'm at 186.5 lb with full riding gear.) Can you confirm -- I would like to include that info in my e-mail to Klaus.

yep, we are close in weight. While I can only recommend what I have experienced myself, no 2 people will want their suspension dialed in the same. But a good starting point never hurt either.

 

[sportryder]

FWIW, the OEM shock when set to the "hard" position is running on a 670 lb/inch spring. A 11.0 kg spring is right around 625 lb/inch.

I did some testing of the '05 FJR shock spring back in December and posted my report here - https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4694

I find it very odd that you would want to run a softer spring than the OEM setup. Preloading the sheot out of a soft spring is no way to make a bike handle properly. The initial feel of it is stiffer until you g-load the chassis while cornering. Adding a lot of preload does not change the rate per inch. It only moves the starting point higher.

Another good point is this - the difference in the combined bike/rider weight for a 185 lb man plus the FJR and a 225 lb man and the FJR is negligable. For this difference in weight, it wouldn't be necessary to change rates of springs.

Now, I have not tested earlier model FJR springs to determine their rate but in my professional opinion, a 625 lb/inch spring on the FJR is too soft unless you want to float down the road like a Gold Wing and have no suspension travel remaining to absorb a bump properly. To each his own though.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

FWIW, the OEM shock when set to the "hard" position is running on a 670 lb/inch spring.  A 11.0 kg spring is right around 625 lb/inch. 
I did some testing of the '05 FJR shock spring back in December and posted my report here - https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4694

I find it very odd that you would want to run a softer spring than the OEM setup.  Preloading the sheot out of a soft spring is no way to make a bike handle properly.

You're up awful early Lee. :huh:

So tell me (hopefully without incurring the ire of the forum), do you find it odd that these guys shocks would come with an even weaker spring than the too-weak one they got to replace it?? Shouldn't Klaus & Co. know better? Do you think it was done because they described their riding style as more sedate perhaps? Just speculating here...no intent to slam anybody involved. This is just evolving into one of those things that make you go "hmmmmm".

Also, FWIW, those *******s.....uh, I mean proffesionals (that's a whole other thread soon to happen) at Racetech list the oem FJR shock spring at 9-11 kg/mm. I rode mine on the hard setting all the time and still found it to be waaaay too soft. I'm 165 - 170 lbs in riding gear.

This is gonna get interesting.

 

[skyway]

FWIW, the OEM shock when set to the "hard" position is running on a 670 lb/inch spring.  A 11.0 kg spring is right around 625 lb/inch. 
I find it very odd that you would want to run a softer spring than the OEM setup.  Preloading the sheot out of a soft spring is no way to make a bike handle properly.  The initial feel of it is stiffer until you g-load the chassis while cornering.  Adding a lot of preload does not change the rate per inch.  It only moves the starting point higher. 

I missed the thread you mentioned, but it does support my SOTP theory on the .95kg spring, since I never tested my oem spring's rate. This is also the reason I suggested scooter add a passenger and head out for a ride.

I did increase the preload on my first spring and the results were not satisfactory.

Personally I will always choose a slightly stiffer spring with less initial preload, as this allows me to ride on the weakest portion of spring compression for added comfort. Then when I need the greater compressive strength that only a stiffer spring can offer, where comfort is now a non issue during loading, its there for me.

 

[sportryder]

Personally I will always choose a slightly stiffer spring with less initial preload, as this allows me to ride on the weakest portion of spring compression for added comfort. Then when I need the greater compressive strength that only a stiffer spring can offer, where comfort is now a non issue during loading, its there for me

Skyway - this is exactly the theory we support at our shop. Stiffer springs do exactly what you stated. They provide ample bottoming resistance while allowing you to ride on the softer part of the spring compression curve for a firm but supple ride. They also provide more ground clearance for cornering which is already a weak area with the FJR. Soft springs require a LOT of preload which makes the initial feel of the ride stiff and sometimes harsh. Soft springs force you to use the compression damping adjusters to control chassis pitching. When you use them that way, it further inhibits bump absorption by not allowing the tire/wheel combo to move during medium to high-velocity suspension movements. The bump energy gets transfered into the chassis making things even worse.

 

[sportryder]

FWIW, the OEM shock when set to the "hard" position is running on a 670 lb/inch spring.  A 11.0 kg spring is right around 625 lb/inch. 
I did some testing of the '05 FJR shock spring back in December and posted my report here - https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4694

I find it very odd that you would want to run a softer spring than the OEM setup.  Preloading the sheot out of a soft spring is no way to make a bike handle properly.

You're up awful early Lee. :huh:

So tell me (hopefully without incurring the ire of the forum), do you find it odd that these guys shocks would come with an even weaker spring than the too-weak one they got to replace it?? Shouldn't Klaus & Co. know better? Do you think it was done because they described their riding style as more sedate perhaps? Just speculating here...no intent to slam anybody involved. This is just evolving into one of those things that make you go "hmmmmm".

Also, FWIW, those *******s.....uh, I mean proffesionals (that's a whole other thread soon to happen) at Racetech list the oem FJR shock spring at 9-11 kg/mm. I rode mine on the hard setting all the time and still found it to be waaaay too soft. I'm 165 - 170 lbs in riding gear.

This is gonna get interesting.

hmmm Dave, I didn't think 8:10 was that early to post anything. Why it states in the "quote" portion that I posted at 5:10 is beyond me. Must be a problem with the software on this board.

Klause and company (as you refer to them) might have some understanding in why they do it their way. It just doesn't make sense to me to set up a bike that way from everything I've learned over the past two years while working at Traxxion Dynamics.

Recently, we started modifying Gold Wing suspensions and to be honest, they run pitifully soft springs on them. In fact, the fork springs are .70 kg/mm on the GL1800. And, it's a 960 lb machine. Then, they use a damping rod on the left fork leg so they can use their stupid anti-dive device to keep the fork from collapsing during braking. Hell, the total fork travel is around 5 inches from full extension to bottoming out. Three inches of it is used up just supporting the weight of the bike. That leaves 2 inches to absorb a bump. The last 3/4 of an inch has a hydraulic bottom out cup that prevents a metallic sounding clank from occuring when they do bottom. So, usable suspension travel without even adding a rider is just a bit over 1". The Gold Wing riders have complained about it for a few years. They just thought it was normal. They get a serious jolt through the handlebars every time that front wheel goes over a small bump unless they are giving it throttle while crossing it. You do not need to use overly soft springs for a smooth and compliant ride. It's all about the setup.

Now, if Klaus and company can convice me there is a better solution in using softer springs for a smooth ride that is compliant and has great ability to absorb bumps of many sizes and still provide superior ground clearance that most motorcycles really need to have then I might be sold on their methods. So far, I'm just curious as to why they go off in that direction.

I also can't explain why RT specs out the OEM shock spring that way. I know what Martin (our lead tech) and I tested and there are two springs just as I mentioned in the post I provided a link to. Now, I do know the early FJR had a softer suspension so it's possible they have not updated their information. I'm not here to defend them. Someone else can do that.

I suppose my questioning the use of softer springs than OEM with the FJR has stepped on a few toes. It's not my intent, it's just my curious nature and wanting to know why.

And, yes on the hard setting using a 670 lb/inch spring I also thought my '05 FJR was too softly sprung.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

FWIW, the OEM shock when set to the "hard" position is running on a 670 lb/inch spring.  A 11.0 kg spring is right around 625 lb/inch. 
I did some testing of the '05 FJR shock spring back in December and posted my report here - https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4694

I find it very odd that you would want to run a softer spring than the OEM setup.  Preloading the sheot out of a soft spring is no way to make a bike handle properly.

You're up awful early Lee. :huh:

hmmm Dave, I didn't think 8:10 was that early to post anything. Why it states in the "quote" portion that I posted at 5:10 is beyond me. Must be a problem with the software on this board.

That's very odd, since we're both on E.S.T., but my post showed the correct time.

I'll bet it's some kinda conspiracy! I'm ready for 'em! :assasin:

 

[sportryder]

Dave,

I just checked my board settings and found my time was incorrect. It was off by 1 hour. The time displayed properly on my side but not in your thread. I would bet your time in the board settings is also off. Between the two of us that would explain the error of 3 hours.

Take a look in your controls area and then board settings and review the time settings.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Dave,
I just checked my board settings and found my time was incorrect. It was off by 1 hour. The time displayed properly on my side but not in your thread. I would bet your time in the board settings is also off. Between the two of us that would explain the error of 3 hours.

Take a look in your controls area and then board settings and review the time settings.

L I B, U B right.

Thet oughta git er done.

 

[skyway]

Personally I will always choose a slightly stiffer spring with less initial preload, as this allows me to ride on the weakest portion of spring compression for added comfort. Then when I need the greater compressive strength that only a stiffer spring can offer, where comfort is now a non issue during loading, its there for me

Skyway - this is exactly the theory we support at our shop.

You guys have a suspension shop? If so where are you located.

 

[sportryder]

Personally I will always choose a slightly stiffer spring with less initial preload, as this allows me to ride on the weakest portion of spring compression for added comfort. Then when I need the greater compressive strength that only a stiffer spring can offer, where comfort is now a non issue during loading, its there for me

Skyway - this is exactly the theory we support at our shop.

You guys have a suspension shop? If so where are you located.

Yessir, Traxxion Dynamics is the name of the company I work for. We're located in Woodstock, GA. There is a web-site also - www.traxxion.com

Check it out... we can help with all motorcycles.

 

[slapnpop]

I installed my rear shock last night, from the recent group buy.

I guess the 120 spring puts me into the fat-*** catagory, but it DEFINATLY didn't feel undersprung, even 2 up.

 

[Leghorn]

This is fascinating stuff, sportryder and skyway, and I've enjoyed your back-and-forth. I've wondered myself why my shock assembly came with such a soft spring. I had described my riding style as "moderately aggressive, 'sport' end of sport-touring, but not a track whore"; riding environment as a mixture of everything from moderately curvy mountain roads to open highway. My riding weight is up about 5 pounds heavier than when I ordered, but that's a personal problem that should be irrelevant here. I'll be out-of-pocket for only the cost shipping (and insuring) the assembly back to New Jersey, but it's been an inconvenience.

I have a technical question on springs. The shock originally came with a 95N/mm spring. If I'm doing my conversions correctly, that's the same as 9.5 Kg/mm spring and approximately the same as a 533 lb/in spring. If static sag at full soft is 14.3mm/0.563 inches, can you calculate the static weight on the rear shock by multiplying 533lb/in x 0.563 in? My guess would be that you cannot unless the suspension is linked in a manner that applies force to the spring on a 1:1 ratio with weight. (Man! . . . what did I just say? :bigeyes: )

 

[Warpdrv]

Just going to do my Wilburs front and rear tomorrow, so reading this thread is a great help for my testing and adjustments, I am 195-200lbs and got a 59/59-110-150 spring with my Shock w/ remote Preload... After reading all the posts, I believe I should be right close with my spring rate.

thanks to all the took the time to explain this info, so us knuckleheads could better understand making the correct settings....