So what's the best battery?

[Fred W]

OK, so this morning I'm at 13.2v on the daytel at idle, the best I saw on the commute in was 13.5-13.6, but mostly 13.5 with my V1 as my only farkle running, no Clearwater lights no nothing.
So is the consensus that my wiring to/from the RR is fubar, or should I just replace the damn thing. Knowing there's really only two peices involved I don't mind troubleshooting wtih my wallet if replacing one or both pieces is going to fix my issue rather than spending Time=(Money) trying to pinpoint it exactly.

The Shindengen RR referenced above is only $130.

The other question is I ellected not to do the wireing harness recall. I fixed my burnt up S6 spider and installed the Brodie harness. I probalby could get the harness replaced (though bike is no longer under warranty). If it's a wiring issue, will that solve it? It feels to me like this is more than wiring, but that's just my gut, I don't have any data to back that up.

I don't have a competent Yami dealer nearby so that's my dillema and why I chose to NOT have any of them do the harness.

-MD

Hold on there. No, your charging system is not right, but lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

The very first thing to do is to double check that your Datel meter is not lying to you by measuring the battery voltage with the bike running, right at the battery terminals, with a known accurate handheld digital Voltmeter. If the handheld agrees with the Datel then we can continue troubleshooting the low charging voltage.

If the Datel is not lying, the next place to measure is at the R/R output (red to black wires) with the bike running. It may be a a tenth or two volts higher than what gets to the battery, that would be voltage dropped on the wiring and connections in between. Any more than that I would be looking to improve those connections in between.

If the R/R output is within a couple tenths of a volt of what you measured at the battery (rules out bad wiring) you'll want to measure the Stator output voltage. It is a three phase AC output, so you make all measurements from one line to another. The first way to test it is by measuring the DC resistance. It should measure .13 - .19 ohms between each white wire pair with the connector disconnected from the R/R, and none of the wires should have continuity to ground.

Next you can measure the AC voltage output of the stator output. It should be a minimum of 15V AC minimum at idle speed and should rise to about 50V-60VAC as you bring the rpms up. The main thing that you are looking for is that the line to line voltage is very similar on all three f the wire pairs. If you find one wire pair is significantly higher that the other two pairs then you may have a cooked stator.

If the stator output checks out good, and you are sure about the battery being good, then the only thing left is the R/R. With your symptoms I would suspect a bad stator much more than a bad regulator/rectifier, but it could be either. A little more troubleshooting and you should be able to tell for sure.

Also, if you get to the point where you have diagnosed that the problem is the R/R, you can get a Shindengen FH020AA regulator and the connectors you'll need to adapt it to your bike here from MotoElectrix for only $108 plus shipping.

 

[mdisher]

OK, I'll verify numbers tonight. I'm 99% sure the daytel aint lying. I have a new meter that will be here today. My Fluke 75 finally died, portions of the LCD are gone. The only other meter I have doesn't scale well.

I already ordered the R/R premptively from https://roadstercycle.com/ cost a little more, but is what it is. I'm going to grab that Gen 2 Stator of Fleabay as well.

I don't have a problem with having spare parts[TM].

-MD

 

[bwv]

I had a whole buncha stuff typed... then saw FredW's post...

Fred W and Ionbeam have given you the entire procedure.

I would further add, that if you do find your voltage is good at the reg output, but lower at the battery, then you can see which exact piece of wire (and or connectors, fuses) is the cause by measuring the "in circuit" voltage of each bit of wire (or part)... meaning:

With the bike running and all your loads turned on... Backprobe connectors (being careful to insulate the probes from touching ground when checking + wires) on each end of each wire... Check the voltage from one connector to the next (with a probe on each end of the same wire) you can see which wire has loss and how much it's losing.

For instance... you could put your positive probe on the output wire from the RR (at the RR) and then the negative probe on the battery terminal at the starter relay... the voltage shown on the meter would be what is being lost in that part of the circuit.

I'd do a broad test at the easiest connectors to get to first.. then work down to find the problem section.

To simplify (not that anyone needs it...)

A= Regulator output terminal

B= Battery Connector at the starter solenoid (relay)

C= + Battery connection

So If you test from A to C (the whole DC part of the charging circuit) and it shows one volt... that is your lost voltage. (1 volt, over such short bits of wire would likely lead to a really hot or melted wire or connector...but you get the idea) ...then test from A to B.. if its the same loss.. look for connectors within that part of the circuit, and test between them... if no loss of voltage is found there, then check from B to C. (dirty battery terminal?)

If you have all your stuff turned on, and find no (or less than .05 volts or so) voltage between A and C (but do have a difference between the RR and the battery voltages)... then do the same on the ground(negative battery) side of things... go from a point on the frame, to the Neg battery terminal first.. if theres significant voltage measured between those points, then measure from the battery to where the ground cable connects...and on... (remember.. you are lookign for a volt or less.. this should not be anywhere near 12 volts or more unless you have a broken wire.)

If you have a digital volt meter, polarity doesnt matter when probing, probe away.... But if you have an old analog one, the positive probe should always be towards the DC voltage source(the output of the RR).

Good luck

 

[mdisher]

OK,

Will do some testing tonight or tomorrow and post up what I find. I really hope this is a dirty connector, but I've premptively ordered spares just in case.

 

[Slardy]

Hold on there. No, your charging system is not right, but lets not get ahead of ourselves here.
The very first thing to do is to double check that your Datel meter is not lying to you by measuring the battery voltage with the bike running, right at the battery terminals, with a known accurate handheld digital Voltmeter. If the handheld agrees with the Datel then we can continue troubleshooting the low charging voltage.

If the Datel is not lying, the next place to measure is at the R/R output (red to black wires) with the bike running. It may be a a tenth or two volts higher than what gets to the battery, that would be voltage dropped on the wiring and connections in between. Any more than that I would be looking to improve those connections in between.

If the R/R output is within a couple tenths of a volt of what you measured at the battery (rules out bad wiring) you'll want to measure the Stator output voltage. It is a three phase AC output, so you make all measurements from one line to another. The first way to test it is by measuring the DC resistance. It should measure .13 - .19 ohms between each white wire pair with the connector disconnected from the R/R, and none of the wires should have continuity to ground.

Next you can measure the AC voltage output of the stator output. It should be a minimum of 15V AC minimum at idle speed and should rise to about 50V-60VAC as you bring the rpms up. The main thing that you are looking for is that the line to line voltage is very similar on all three f the wire pairs. If you find one wire pair is significantly higher that the other two pairs then you may have a cooked stator.

If the stator output checks out good, and you are sure about the battery being good, then the only thing left is the R/R. With your symptoms I would suspect a bad stator much more than a bad regulator/rectifier, but it could be either. A little more troubleshooting and you should be able to tell for sure.

Also, if you get to the point where you have diagnosed that the problem is the R/R, you can get a Shindengen FH020AA regulator and the connectors you'll need to adapt it to your bike here from MotoElectrix for only $108 plus shipping.

Mdisher,

Take this advice (and Ionbeams) before you buy a stator. I bought a stator and R/R before I went in to repair. I thought for sure my problem was a bad stator. When I removed it, it looked perfect. I measured some resistances and decided that the stator was fine. I then read the forum advice and did some voltage measurements and sure enough, the R/R was the problem. I sold the stator on the forum for a loss.

Good luck.

Slardy

 

[mdisher]

Mdisher,
Take this advice (and Ionbeams) before you buy a stator. I bought a stator and R/R before I went in to repair. I thought for sure my problem was a bad stator. When I removed it, it looked perfect. I measured some resistances and decided that the stator was fine. I then read the forum advice and did some voltage measurements and sure enough, the R/R was the problem. I sold the stator on the forum for a loss.

Good luck.

Slardy

I'm a little time compressed at the moment, so the spares have been ordered. I can't afford to get a couple days into this, decide I do need a stator or RR and then have to wait for one. I'm OK with this Time/Moneywise. I tend to hold onto spares. So if I don't have a need for the parts I've ordered I'll have them when the next guy gets in a bind. I've loaned my spare final drive more than once now

Looking forward to putting this behind me. While I do love this bike, all in all I'm starting to think about my next bike, haven been bitten by just about everything that I could have been bitten by. (Spiders/Ignition Switches, glovebox selenoid failure, Final drive seals, etc, etc.)

Onward and upward.

 

[Patriot]

STAY AWAY FROM MOTOBATT!!

I love mine...btw, as you all know I may be the farkle king of FJR Peeps

I used to stick with Westco, but a few years ago, they changed overseas factorys and I found they did no functions well as before lasting a few years and quitting all of a sudden. Thankfully it was on a local ride and push starting got me home. It's a pain to change it with all the wires run next and over the top of the battery which made me angry to have 2 fail less than 2 years apart.

So went with Motobatt and am very happy...on older engine, was getting a few tenths better reading on my Datel at rest...like 12.4 instead of 12.2.

I researched others with data comparing motorcycle batteries along with recommendations, reviews, and feedback on polls.

My bike is '04 Gen 1

So, recently, engine swap, new used engine installed which included it's stator...well riding on interstate at 4k rpm doing 78mph, old engine reading was 13.7, new engine is 14.1. So that tells me the old engine had marginal stator output and new engine is much better and doing quite well.

 

[Patriot]

battery brand comparison - July, 2009

The MotoBatt MBTX16U (MBatt)

The Scorpion sYTX16BS1 (SBatt)

The Odyssey PC535 (OBatt)

The Westco SVR14 (WBatt)

The BatteriesPlus Xtreme XTX16BS1 (XBatt)

https://boulevardowners.com/cafe/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=157926

 

[bramfrank]

That shootout is what prompted me to buy Motobatt in the first place. But a couple of people on the Facebook group commented that they've had similar Motobatt issues as well with the FJR part and with others.

Clearly they have inconsistent quality control.

 

[mdisher]

Ok, back on topic, which is my busted ass charging system.

At idle, I have 15.5 volts coming out of the RR (while disconnected). That's to be expected yes?

So like DCarver I'm losing it somewhere, back to his thread to try and understand what is fix was.

After reviewing his thread, it appears there isn't any fix to the current wiring harness. He went through all of his connectors to no avail. The end fix was to run a bypass circuit directly between battery and RR.

Which is what I'll do. We have no idea where this magic voltage is getting lost right?

-MD

 

[ionbeam]

...At idle, I have 15.5 volts coming out of the RR (while disconnected). That's to be expected yes?...
So like DCarver I'm losing it somewhere...The end fix was to run a bypass circuit directly between battery and RR...Which is what I'll do. We have no idea where this magic voltage is getting lost right?

Yup.

Little itty bits of volts are being lost at every connection along with voltage drops due to wire gauge. But(t) wait, it gets worse. The same problem on the power side of the circuit also happens to the ground circuit. You have to fix both sides of the circuit to balance the current flow and prevent voltage drops.

 

[mdisher]

Alright, so I'm at a loss as to how to test these voltages (RR/Stator) while connected. But if 15.5 while disconnected is what's expected and I'm taking from your post ion that it is.

Then I just need jack's bypass harness that I ordered with the RR to bypass the factory wiring harness to the battery and I get what DCarver got.

After talking to Jack because I had to call him to get a 50A Circuit Breaker, I should leave the factory battery leads connected to the battery for all the other bits to get their power.

Then button it all back up and I'll be good. Is that correct? At least in theory? Execution is of course left up to me. I'll do it before beers.

-MD

 

[Fred W]

I do not know if 15.5V is good with the R/R output disconnected. That isn't a good test of anything, and I don't remember anyone ever recommending that you disconnect the load when you test it.

What you want to do is measure the voltage at the R/R connector with it still hooked up and normally loaded. To do that you put your meter's test leads in from the back side of the connector, alongside where the insulated wire goes into it. That's called "back-probing" the connector. With these big, heavy duty connectors you should have no problem getting your probe in there. Some types of connectors require you to use a special needle probe or you can stick some paper clips or other thin conductor in and make the measurement using them.

Measuring the voltage at the R/R's output connector and comparing it to the voltage being delivered to the battery, the difference in voltage will be what's being dropped (lost) on the wiring and connector resistances between those two points. By moving the probe to other points in the wiring you can pinpoint where exactly the voltage is being dropped.

And yes, a common modification for motorcycle charging systems is to run the + and - output wires from the R/R directly to the battery terminals via heavy gauge (#10 or larger) fused wires.

 

[LAF]

Alright, so I'm at a loss as to how to test these voltages (RR/Stator) while connected. But if 15.5 while disconnected is what's expected and I'm taking from your post ion that it is.
Then I just need jack's bypass harness that I ordered with the RR to bypass the factory wiring harness to the battery and I get what DCarver got.

After talking to Jack because I had to call him to get a 50A Circuit Breaker, I should leave the factory battery leads connected to the battery for all the other bits to get their power.

Then button it all back up and I'll be good. Is that correct? At least in theory? Execution is of course left up to me. I'll do it before beers.

-MD

Well I am right behind you on this. I have ordered the super kit and will have at it when it comes. Start another thread on your install and I will add as I go on the install also. It seems like a very sound solution or work around. I am very electric challenged and will need all the help I can get when it comes to the install.

 

[RossKean]

1. Make SURE you have a known, good battery. Get it load-tested by a competent shop.
2. Go through the simple test items posted by FredW, Ionbeam and others

You should be able to isolate the problem to the battery, R/R, stator and/or a whole bunch of small losses at the various connectors. Don't fix what ain't broke, otherwise, you may go through the whole thing again AFTER spending a bunch of time and money. While it does not sound like a battery issue, funny things can happen with a bad or marginal cell; still worth checking before you dive into anything else.

 

[LAF]

1. Make SURE you have a known, good battery. Get it load-tested by a competent shop.
2. Go through the simple test items posted by FredW, Ionbeam and others

You should be able to isolate the problem to the battery, R/R, stator and/or a whole bunch of small losses at the various connectors. Don't fix what ain't broke, otherwise, you may go through the whole thing again AFTER spending a bunch of time and money. While it does not sound like a battery issue, funny things can happen with a bad or marginal cell; still worth checking before you dive into anything else.

Thank you for the advice. I think I am just going to put the R/R in and see if it makes a difference, if not then run the wires to battery. My MotoBatt is relatively new and I have my original that has been well maintained by my Optimate Battery Charger. We will see how it all shakes out. I am pretty sure when I back probed mine it was marginal or close. I just do not think it is doing its job. I will check all my wire runs but they are all solid with 10G wire. Most are strait runs from FuzeBlock to accessory. Relay in the Moto Lights is all I can think that is not a solid run. Anyway we will see how we progress on this. I will back probe again at start and go from there.

 

[ionbeam]

As Fred says, testing with the R/R connector off doesn't really tell you anything meaningful. Back probe the connector: Let the MacGyver in you come out. Sneak pins or needles from your wife (should there be one or equivalent) or sacrifice a couple of paper clips, etc then holding them with a pair of pliers push them past the rubber weather ring around the R & B wires and into the connector until it hits the pin. Now measure the voltage using the taps.

I didn't go through the entire troubleshooting process because this test and the possibility of needing to charge the battery will tell you what the next troubleshooting steps will be. IMO, the battery is still a suspect in this troubleshooting process. This spring I was seeing lower than normal numbers on my Datel. Disconnecting my battery, charging it, then letting the battery stand showed the battery voltage dropped to 12.4 volts when resting & disconnected from the motorcycle. My bike started just fine and overtly had no problems when running until the fans kicked on then the voltage would drop to 13.1 volts (on Datel) and if the blinkers were on it would bounce 12.8 - 13.2 - 12.8. If I had my heated grips on and the fans came on at a traffic light the voltage would drop to 12.8 volts. I replaced my battery and now with the fans on AND my heated grips on the voltage on the Datel is ~13.8 volts.

Edited to include:

I think I am just going to put the R/R in and see if it makes a difference, if not then run the wires to battery. My MotoBatt is relatively new and I have my original that has been well maintained by my Optimate Battery Charger. We will see how it all shakes out. I am pretty sure when I back probed mine it was marginal or close. I just do not think it is doing its job. I will check all my wire runs but they are all solid with 10G wire. Most are strait runs from FuzeBlock to accessory. Relay in the Moto Lights is all I can think that is not a solid run. Anyway we will see how we progress on this. I will back probe again at start and go from there.

The R/R and stator work YES or NO, not kinda, so-so. What we are talking about here is just a few hundred Milli-volts. A failing stator winding will drop volts, a meter will measure voltages in the 9.0 t0 11.x volt range. A failing R/R will either result in >15.5 volts or result in low voltage and the R/R will be flaming hot. The R/R maintains voltage by shunting the extra power from the stator to ground. If you think the R/R is causing the problem that would mean that one of the FETs has shorted and is dumping power to ground all the time.

 

[Donal]

Before you go spending too much time & money try the simple things first.

1. make sure all bolted connections (like the starter solenoid) are clean & tight.

2. Make sure all plug/socket connections are clean & tight. Take the time to open the connectors, spray them with something like ACF-50 and re-make. It's often a good thing to do this several times. This is especially important with the the R/R connectors.

3. Make sure your main ground from the battery to the chassis is clean & tight.

IMHO if the OEM wiring was good enough to start with, then it should be good enough for the life of the bike. The connectors on the other hand need care & attention.

 

[Fred W]

OK, I'll say it too...

Make sure it's not the battery first!! That is always step #1 in troubleshooting any charging system.

 

[RossKean]

In the theme of checking connections, check that the plastic cover for the positive terminal for the battery is not pinched between the connector and the post resulting in a poor connection. There have been a couple of reports on this issue.