So what's the best battery?

[mdisher]

OK,

I will run some more tests tonight, I will also pick up another new battery on the way home. But my Shorai is only 5mos old. But it's been depleted once, dead-dead, by leaving the GPS on for a week.

I will steal some office supplies to back probe those connectors. I couldn't do it with my meter's probes, I tried.

I'm a little worred that jack's harness isn't going to be long enough, but we'll see when it gets here.

So to recap for this slow learner: The RR is unbolted from under the bike so this should be easy with said paperclips.

1) With bike running at idle, back probing the +/- side of the RR I'm looking for a difference between that reading and one at the battery, if it's there and significant I'm going to put the bypass (add on the new harness) and be done. ( I will clean connectors along the way just to be safe).

2) If the voltages match and it's simply weak out of the RR then Step 3

3) if I don't have better voltage there, then I'm gonna check the Stator side, of which I should have 15VAC - 60VAC as RPM's increase across any of the 3 legs right? If those are good, replace RR and re-test, if they are weak, mis-matched, fubar, replace Stator.

OK, paperclips acquired.

-MD

(Any chance a Mod can move this to Technical/Mechanical Problems and rename it Disher's fubar charging system?)

I have also currently, removed/disconnected ALL farkles, except the Fuzeblock[TM] but it currently has nothing connected, this resulted in no change FWIW.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Make sure the paperclips are titanium.

Good lucky with the trouble shoot.

 

[Fred W]

Sounds like a solid plan. :thumbsup:

 

[mdisher]

OK here goes:

FJR Charging System Troubleshooting.

Freshly charged Shorai battery (overnight on Tender), After removing tender Daytel said it was a 16.8 volts. As soon as I turn on the key and put any load on it that vanishes down to ~14 volts, it's pretty much always been that way. Back probed, using only the finest paperclips available.

== Key turned on, bike at rest ==
Measurement At Battery: 14.9v
Measurement At RR/Connector: 14.9v

== Started, warmed up to 4 bars idling @1000 RPM ==
Measurement At Battery: 13.44v
Measurement At RR/Connector: 13.92v (0.5volt difference)

== Off,at rest again ==
Measurement At Battery: 13.19v
Measurement At RR/Connector: 13.18v

Is that half a volt lost running the lights and what not? Is that enough to warrant the bypass cable? I suspect so since 13.92 at the battery would be huge over the 13.2-3 I normally see.


Stator connector Voltages while running.

(3) Spots A, B, C

@ idle:
All, between A-B, B-C, A-C was from 9.8x - 10v, kinda bounced around, wasn't real stable.

If any were low A-C was a bit lower than the other two, but not by much at all, but it wasn't really steady at all.

@ 3000 RPM and @ 4000 RPM, pretty much the same ~10v, it never went higher than 10v. I did not expect this, had the wife wip it up to 6k, no change.

(Going back out to retest stator resistance while unplugged and compare to my2007 Stator in the box).


So I have a new battery that I picked up from Batteries Plus, their Extreme something battery that's allegedly a direct replacement. It's on the Battery Tender now, they advised me to charge it overnight.

I have a stator from an 07 that showed up in my mailbox today. I'm leaning towards the Stator, going back to review DCarver's stator measurements.

WTF? Bad Stator & Voltage loss from wiring? Re-test with new battery?

I will say this about the Shorai, as much as I think I dislike it, it does 'recover' fast, and doesn't take much to kick it in the *** and have enough to start the bike.

But yeah I'm not sure where to go from here. I think I wasted to see bigger differences, but maybe that's what I'm supposed to see.

 

[mdisher]

OK, proper stator testing (I believe) is unplugged.

Unplugged, .1 to .2 ohms across all 3 legs.

Voltage at idle is 24 volts and does change with RPM's so I think it's good to go, saw up to 90v.

So, RR? or Bypass harness or both? Or repeat tests with other battery?

 

[Fred W]

Yes, correct. The stator voltage measurements are taken unplugged.

The slightly excessive drop on the wiring may be due to the excessive current being drawn by the Shorai battery.

What I would do: Finish charging battery, install and retest. I suspect that voltages at both ends will be somewhat higher with somewhat less difference. But there still will probably be a difference. To minimize it you can install the bypass harness. You really want to see a relatively steady 14.0-14.3V on the battery while running. That way when you lay a heavy load on it (with heated gear, etc.) it will stay up higher as well.

 

[mdisher]

Yes, correct. The stator voltage measurements are taken unplugged.
The slightly excessive drop on the wiring may be due to the excessive current being drawn by the Shorai battery.

What I would do: Finish charging battery, install and retest. I suspect that voltages at both ends will be somewhat higher with somewhat less difference. But there still will probably be a difference. To minimize it you can install the bypass harness. You really want to see a relatively steady 14.0-14.3V on the battery while running. That way when you lay a heavy load on it (with heated gear, etc.) it will stay up higher as well.

Thanks for the confirmation Fred. That will be my next move. I'll let that battery charge over night and with some luck get it installed tomorrow and re-test. I don't think a .5 volt drop is acceptable. But I'd live with a .2v drop if I had a solid 13.9 at the battery with some farkles on. We'll find out shortly.

-MD

 

[mdisher]

OK, well I walked out to the barn for something else and saw the "Ding, battery is done" light on the Battery tender so of course I had to swap it and try it.

Results are similar, only elevated a couple volts. 14.1 at the RR at idle, 13.5-6 at the battery, at RPM I saw up to 14.45 at the RR, 13.9 at the battery.

I guess Bypass harness it is... Now the next question. I don't have room on the battery posts for one more thing.

On the plus side I have:

- Factory battery thing

- Lead to my FuzeBlock[TM]

- Lead to my Horns

- Battery Tender and one more thing.

On the - side it's all of that plus the Brodie harness ground. So I'm either gonna need a longer screw/bolt or a new plan. Cause if I drag one more thing up there there's no way I'll get those screws started and/or if I do have more than a thread or two holding it all together.

Anyone want a Smokin deal on a very lightly used Shorai? I also have added a spare RR and 07 Stator to my parts inventory. Maybe I'll put the Shorai in my lawnmower next year.

 

[bwv]

I think .5 volts is too much loss. these wires aren't that long.

Were you able to measure the difference between the RR and where the cables connect to the starter relay?

Looking at the wiring diagram(haven't had that apart yet... so I'm speaking with no experience), the positive wire goes from the RR to the main fuse, then the starter relay where the positive battery cable connects. These components are all so close.. the wires just cant be that long.

Just for giggles.. pull the main fuse and put it back a couple times (to "scrub" the connections a little)... maybe those have some corrosion?

Was that voltage drop measurement you made with just the normal accessories? or with your other stuff plugged in?

 

[Fred W]

Alrighty then... now we are getting somewhere.

Typical with "chronic" problems of this kind (and no, I'm not talking about 4:20 here) the root cause is often found to the accumulation of a multitude of smaller problems. The Shorai battery was a bit off, but you do still have too many losses on the wires between R/R and battery. Since now your R/R output is good, it's just a matter of finding and eliminating the latter. This is now the exact same scenario that DCarver went through in that previously referenced thread.

I've recently worked on the same (or very similar) issue on one of my other bikes (2000 Aprilia Pegaso). Here are my thoughts on this kind of a problem: The primary purpose of the charging system is to recharge the battery after using the starter motor to start the bike, and to keep the battery highly charged for the next start. Secondarily it needs to provide enough electric power to run the bike and any added accessories without discharging the battery.

To achieve its primary purpose requires that you deliver a high enough charging voltage (14.0-14.3V) to the battery.

To achieve the secondary purpose the generator only needs to supply power to the rest of the electrical system, the voltage it does that at is not particularly important as long as it is somewhere around 12V.

This is why I re-wired the charging system on the old Pegaso so that the output of the R/R goes through two heavy 10 gauge wires directly to the + and - battery terminals. There is an inline 30A fuse on the positive wire to prevent a battery explosion should the R/R short out. Otherwise, just two short wires with crimped and soldered terminals on each end gives you the least possible series resistance between R/R and battery. I now get a steady 14.2V at the battery.

The Italians didn't do a great job building wiring harnesses back in 2000, and just like the FJR there are a lot of crimps, connectors and undersized conductors all over the bike (no spiders though), which result in the distributed voltage drops we have been talking about. But, those are now all between the battery and the rest of the bike. Which means that although the voltage at some of the peripheral devices may be somewhat lower than 14.2V, it is still plenty high enough, and the battery still gets the full 14.2V until the load exceeds the output from the stator.

This is the idea behind the "bypass harnesses." I would recommend doing this and that should be the end of your problems.

PS - I think the answer to the thread title is: "Not a Shorai."

Their motto could be: "You can buy better, but you won't pay more."

 

[TomInPA]

Alrighty then... now we are getting somewhere.

The first reply I made in this thread was that the resistance in the wiring was the most likely root cause, although I forgot it was dcarver that went through all the testing to get there. I developed a similar mod for the Suzuki C90 for the same problem. The wiring path on the Gen II FJR for 2006-2007 makes battery charging look like an afterthought rather than a primary objective. Just look at the schematic. A bypass harness solves that pretty quickly, or just using #10 primary wire with an inline fuse or breaker.

 

[Fred W]

A bypass harness solves that pretty quickly, or just using #10 primary wire with an inline fuse or breaker.

You really need to run two #10's from R/R to the battery, both positive and negative sides. Some of the distributed losses can be on the return side. Of course only the + side needs to be fused.

 

[Constant Mesh]

Yamaha should provide easily accessible + & - DC bus terminals as close as possible to the R/R. Hooking up accessories at the battery terminals is bad news. The accessories current has to flow through the loop circuit between the R/R and the battery creating needless voltage drop and lowering the battery charging voltage. The ABS pump motor is powered from the battery and charging circuit. But since it operates so rarely and for such short duration it's of little consequence electrically -- no real effect on charging voltage.

 

[Fred W]

No. You do not want the bike's load current coming directly off the R/R output. You want the R/R output going to the battery first stop, and then have all of the loads placed on the battery.

As for your wiring difficulties at the battery terminals, get a couple of barrier terminal strips (I use the Euro style ones), one for all of the positive connections and one for all of the grounds.

Run one heavy gauge (fused on the positive side) wire from the battery terminals to each of the strips and make all of your connections to the peripherals and accessories from there. It can be placed somewhere convenient for your devices, and can also be fed through a relay if you want that power to be switched.

 

[mdisher]

I think .5 volts is too much loss. these wires aren't that long.

Just for giggles.. pull the main fuse and put it back a couple times (to "scrub" the connections a little)... maybe those have some corrosion?

Was that voltage drop measurement you made with just the normal accessories? or with your other stuff plugged in?

I will play with the main fuse for the giggle factor. This testing was with all Farkles disconnected (except for the Big *** Horn wiring, it was still in place) But that just goes to/from battery to/from a relay, plugged into the normal horn outlets and wasn't used.

As for your wiring difficulties at the battery terminals, get a couple of barrier terminal strips (I use the Euro style ones), one for all of the positive connections and one for all of the grounds.
Run one heavy gauge (fused on the positive side) wire from the battery terminals to each of the strips and make all of your connections to the peripherals and accessories from there. It can be placed somewhere convenient for your devices, and can also be fed through a relay if you want that power to be switched.

I currently have (one big ***) wire (pair), well as large as will fit into the Fuzeblock[TM] under my seat. I also have another pair of larger wires, run to a set of barrier strips on the back of the bike. These were used specifically to get as clean a connecton to the battery for my GPS and StarComm while trying to eliminate some engine noise back in the day that only happened with the Mic was used on a phone call which never really ever went away, no matter how I wired it or how many 'shielded cables' or filters I installed. Now that I've gone to the Sena I can probably illiminate that.

I'm going to re-do all of that as part of this so that's probably where I'll get the room. I'll probably leave the barrier strip, then run the Fuzeblock off that. My heated gear, GPS, Clearwater lights, and big *** lights will all come off the Fuze Block then. Speaking of Clearwaters, has anyone else run into any issues with the power from them causing other issues. I believe they use PWM for dimming, and if things like my radar detector are run off the same leads, it goes nucking futz. I also (previously) couldn't use my Honda heated grips while those were on. They confused the heat controller to the point that they simply wouldn't work (all LED's just flashed). If I shut everything down, turned off the clearwater lights, the grips worked fine.

I ordered the 'spare' RR with harnes from Jack, it should be here any day now. Though I'm fairly certain his 3 foot harness aint gonna make it to the battery so I'm probably going to have to build another one.

That's the current plan. Install the new Charging harness directly to the battery and rewire my goodies and be done.

I'll post up when that happens, hopefully Sunday.

 

[Constant Mesh]

I strongly disagree because the battery is not the energy source. The R/R is the "Sun" in the system -- the source of all energy.

The only valid reason for connecting the accessories at the battery terminals is because there's no other accessible DC bus terminals nearer the R/R.

Ideally under normal operating conditions the only current flowing in the loop between the battery and R/R would be battery charging current.

By connecting the accessories at the battery all accessory current must flow in the R/R -- battery charging loop, with the corresponding reduction in the battery charging voltage.

 

[wheatonFJR]

No. You do not want the bike's load current coming directly off the R/R output. You want the R/R output going to the battery first stop, and then have all of the loads placed on the battery.

Okay.

I strongly disagree because the battery is not the energy source. The R/R is the "Sun" in the system -- the source of all energy.
The only valid reason for connecting the accessories at the battery terminals is because there's no other accessible DC bus terminals nearer the R/R.

Okay.
Well, I'm looking forward to the enlightening of the masses out there as to which is correct.

...cuz it's all black magic to me.

 

[Fred W]

By connecting the accessories at the battery all accessory current must flow in the R/R -- battery charging loop, with the corresponding reduction in the battery charging voltage.

True, but by eliminating all of the resistances between R/R and battery you negate this from being a problem. But I do see your point. Your alternate approach would be to have the entire bike wired to the R/R and have the battery on its own dedicated charge (and discharge) path.

 

[Slardy]

PS - I think the answer to the thread title is: "Not a Shorai." Their motto could be: "You can buy better, but you won't pay more."

Fred,

Did I miss a forum discussion on problems with the Shorai. I did a search and could not find it.

I have had the large Shorai for almost a year now and all seems fine. I did see comments about poor cold weather performance, but that is of no concern to me.

Slardy

 

[Fred W]

There were some discussions going on during the winter about the Shorai's bad habits in the cold. Plus this thread shows a basically new Shorai was screwing up, although the OP did say he discharged it fully by leaving a drain on it overnight.