Starter issues

[wfooshee]

I've been having trouble starting the bike when warm lately. When I make a gas stop I either use a station with a slope to the road, or I count on spending some time in the station browsing lottery tickets or something, because it usually won't refire until it's sat for 20 or 30 minutes. It'll crank very slowly, with difficulty, and stop, like a dead battery. After cooling off, it cranks easy and fires right up. With booster cables from a car it fires right up, even when it won't turn over by itself.

I replaced the battery, since it's about two years old, but it's not any different. Not as bad, but still does it. I've examined all the cables for corrosion, connections are clean.

Damn. Time to pull the starter. I'm fully expecting to find something like ScooterG posted back in February, even though I'm about 100,000 miles short of his mileage at that post. These are his pics, not mine. Mine come later.

Sorry for stealing your pics, Scooter, but I wanted the reference. Fortunately, mine was nothing like that. There was a significant amount of oily black powdery gunk in the front of the housing, but it cleaned out nicely with some compressed air and tapping down onto the work table. Nothing wrong with the brushes, plenty of life left.

The guts, also very clean, very nice, except for what looks like rub marks. Hmmm-m-m-m.

Look what I found in the housing, though:

One magnet loose and shifted, and it bears the marks of rubbing against the windings:

Obviously, that magnet out of position plays havoc with the starter's power output, but can I repair it with a dab of epoxy and put it all back together? This motor is cherry other than that. I figure a good cleaning of the surfaces and a good adhesive and I'm back to hot starting!

Comments? Suggestions?

 

[dsmack]

First, I'm sure Scooter wouldn't mind you using his pics of that gross assembly of his... especially when you correctly attributed the excellent photos to him...

Your's looks much more normal, and what I'm hoping mine looks like at this point in it's lifespan!

Your idea of epoxying the magnet back in place certainly seems appropriate to me. How are the magnets held in place originally? Is there a thin film of epoxy/adhesive on the back side of the originals?

Seems to me that you might want to mark each segment for correct orientation, then remove the remaining three and re-epoxy all of them. Or alternatively, try with reasonable force to test that they are correctly and firmly attached.

I'd recommend that if you go the expoy route, that you go to a good auto parts store and inquire about the various epoxies available. I have heard that many of the blister-packed stuff you find hanging on the rack at Pep Boys is a poor substitute for some of the really excellent stuff being marketed by big firms such as Permatex. Quickness of cure is not nearly as important as ultimate strength in your case, I'd think.

Let us know how it turns out for you.

Don

 

[fjrob1300]

Hey Walter now you got me thinking I should be looking into my starter. Every now and then when I start after refueling or a quick break my starter does the grunt and my clock resets. But hit the start button again and off it goes. Is that how yours started? I've not been let down yet and it always starts right away. Let me know. Thanks

Rob

 

[wfooshee]

With this series of episodes the clock never reset. Right after I bought the bike in June '07 the clock would reset for nearly nothin' about half the time, so I bought a battery and all was well. This time I figured since it was a cheap battery, and now over 2 years old, that it was just tired and (not) cranky.

It's a well-known fact that sometimes they crank better when hot with wide-open throttle, and I even make sure it's in neutral instead of just clutched in first. Sometimes clutch drag made a difference in starting.

I'll tell you this for sure, though. There's a reason the starter was the last thing I looked at. To get to it, tank has to come off, tool tray out, airbox out, fuel rail off, and throttle bodies out, which involves all the injector connectors, hoses and connectors under the tank, electrical, vacuum, and coolant connections at each end of the throttle body assembly along with the throttle cables, sensors on the air box, one nearly impossible hose underneath the air box, and if you've farkled, you'll have a fuse block or some grounds under the seat that have to be gone, too.

Here's the bike at starter extraction. It's something you have to really want to do, or in my case, really want to not pay somebody else to do!

Before I disassembled the starter I was very pessimistic. Turning the shaft by hand I could feel the scraping that's evident in the pictures and I just knew I was in for a Bad Thing. Turns out maybe not so bad, after all. I'm sure the starter will be a lot stronger with the magnet where it belongs, and no dragging of expanded hot parts.

 

[YAM TOM]

Excellent pics and vary interesting subject. This is the kind of thing that makes this forum so helpful

 

[Silent]

Epoxy that bastage back in and run it. The magnets on a wound motor don't really encounter lateral stresses. The epoxy is mainly there just to keep the magnet in place. The only thing I would make sure of, is that the magnet goes back in in the exact orientation that it came out.

 

[wfooshee]

Done. 15 hours to cure, good for 600 degrees, so tomorrow afternoon I start screwing stuff back together.

I reset all of them. The other three weren't loose, but it took nothing to pop them out, so I thought I'd save myself the effort of making another trip into here in a few months.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

wfooshee,

Thanks for sharing your creativity & diagnosis. Good to hear a success story.

 

[dcarver]

Woohoo for Woofooooshe!

Excellent post - have you thought about putting the starter motor in the wives best oven at 350F for 20 minutes then hooking it up to a healthy battery? For a load on the starter, connect the output to a shaft then fire up the bbq and rotisseire a big old hog.

I'm so glad I could contribute to your very fine thread, just sayin'.. :rofl:

 

[Zorlac]

Done. 15 hours to cure, good for 600 degrees, so tomorrow afternoon I start screwing stuff back together.
I reset all of them. The other three weren't loose, but it took nothing to pop them out, so I thought I'd save myself the effort of making another trip into here in a few months.

What type and brand of epoxy did you end up using?Thanks for taking the time to post all the details, much appreciated!

At that level of "apartness", a valve adjust almost seems like a necessity if you're even close to due.

 

[johnny80s]

Nice post Walter. I did not even know where the starter was.

 

[wfooshee]

What type and brand of epoxy did you end up using?

JB Weld. Had the highest temperature rating (600 degrees) of anything on the counter. Next highest was 350.

Woohoo for Woofooooshe!
Excellent post - have you thought about putting the starter motor in the wives best oven at 350F for 20 minutes then hooking it up to a healthy battery? For a load on the starter, connect the output to a shaft then fire up the bbq and rotisseire a big old hog.

I'm so glad I could contribute to your very fine thread, just sayin'.. :rofl:

You don't think I'd melt the windings running it that long? :blink: Not to mention the reduction gearset I'd need. Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'll keep my stuff where it belongs. . . . . .

 

[Fred W]

Excellent diagnostic job and write up, Wfooshee! Thanks for taking the time to document it all.

Yes, JB Weld is the shit! Stuff is amazing and seems like a good choice for this little application. Though (hopefully) your engine temp doesn't go up to 350 degrees F! :blink:

One question, prior to the repair was there any change in the way the starter sounded? Like maybe you could hear the magnet moving back and forth or grinding noise from it rubbing on the armature? The loose magnet doesn't really jive that well with the symptom of only having hot start problems. It must just be the engine is always harder to turn over when warm and the weaker starter motor isn't up to the task.

I will be waiting to hear that it all works as new now. The only scary thing in the back of my mind is that permanent magnets will lose flux if banged around. Not sure how much banging happened. Hopefully it just slipped sideways once and stayed there?

 

[fjrob1300]

Thanks Walter I think I'll start with a new battery.

Rob

 

[DJB]

Hello everyone I was reading with some interest as mine has been doing the same thing for about 2 to 3 years now. I actually do get the resetting of he clock and mileage thing. I have a 2003. So I asked the service guy and the first thing he said was it is not the started or solenoids. He said the first place to look is at the ground wires going to the engine. Her are his reasons. 1) a hot engine will require more juice to start because the resistance in the wires is higher. So if you are having an issue especially when very hot and on a hot day the battery has to produce extra power it may be creating an arch to start. 2) the other place may be the wires going to the solenoids as they either work or do not he said there really is not work sometimes with them. So today I will take apart the fairings and trace the negative from the battery to the engine or frame and check my connections and let you all know. I only have 67K on mine so I think my starter is good for another 39K or so. :dribble:

 

[wfooshee]

One question, prior to the repair was there any change in the way the starter sounded? Like maybe you could hear the magnet moving back and forth or grinding noise from it rubbing on the armature? The loose magnet doesn't really jive that well with the symptom of only having hot start problems. It must just be the engine is always harder to turn over when warm and the weaker starter motor isn't up to the task.
I will be waiting to hear that it all works as new now. The only scary thing in the back of my mind is that permanent magnets will lose flux if banged around. Not sure how much banging happened. Hopefully it just slipped sideways once and stayed there?

No weird noises from the starter, just slow and weak cranking. When I pulled the starter and turned it by hand before I tore it apart I could feel the scraping and was really pessimistic about what I'd find in there. I could turn it by hand but it was difficult. As for the magnet's health, it just slipped over against the adjacent magnet. There's not enough room for it to actually have moved around in the housing.

Just now reassembled the starter and it turns much more smoothly. Looking forward to having it all together in a couple of hours and seeing how it works.

I've been having a look at cabling while I'm digging around, and I've found no corroded connections anywhere. Still no explanation about why it's worse when hot, unless it expanded enough to drag a whole lot worse. . . . .

 

[wfooshee]

Well, shit!

No change. Bike won't start hot. New battery, apparently good starter, haven't found any gunked-up cables, positive or ground, so I'm now officially frustrated.

When the bike is hot, starter cranks over weakly, just a couple of turns, and stops. Another kick will get a grunt out of it. This is not a fuel issue where the bike cranks but won't fire. It doesn't crank. If you jump it from a car or a portable booster it cranks and fires OK, so something is soaking up my amps to the point I have to supply more than the bike itself can. Or, no booster available, I can wait 20 or 30 minutes and it cranks and starts just fine. Bump-start works every time, but slopes are few and far between around here.

Glad you guys enjoyed the pics of my starter. Now what?

Oh, for your further amusement: When putting shit back together, don't install the tip-over sensor upside down. Easy fix, but made me feel just a tad stupid. :huh: (If you're asking why I had to remove that, it covers up one of the screws for the tool tray, which had to come out to allow the airbox to come out.)

 

[Geezer]

Well, shit!
No change. Bike won't start hot. New battery, apparently good starter, haven't found any gunked-up cables, positive or ground, so I'm now officially frustrated.

When the bike is hot, starter cranks over weakly, just a couple of turns, and stops. Another kick will get a grunt out of it. This is not a fuel issue where the bike cranks but won't fire. It doesn't crank. If you jump it from a car or a portable booster it cranks and fires OK, so something is soaking up my amps to the point I have to supply more than the bike itself can. Or, no booster available, I can wait 20 or 30 minutes and it cranks and starts just fine. Bump-start works every time, but slopes are few and far between around here.

Glad you guys enjoyed the pics of my starter. Now what?

Oh, for your further amusement: When putting shit back together, don't install the tip-over sensor upside down. Easy fix, but made me feel just a tad stupid. :huh: (If you're asking why I had to remove that, it covers up one of the screws for the tool tray, which had to come out to allow the airbox to come out.)

Very strange. Could the new battery be weak? Maybe try connecting a spare battery (like from your car) in parallel and see if makes a difference.

In any case, the starter was going to be a problem eventually with that loose magnet, so you didn't waste your time fixing that.

 

[wfooshee]

After posting the last, I went back out and it fired right up. I'd hardly touched the starter button and it was running. 10 minutes of sitting in the shade.