Starter issues

[big ears]

You probably need a new starter. Seen this on high mileage trucks and cars. Starter drags when hot. Think this was mentioned earlier. If it has been jump started with high amperage the windings may be damaged.

 

[Geezer]

I think the problem has been solved. His replacement battery was no good.

 

[wfooshee]

No, still a starter issue. Replacement battery gives a bit better cranking than I had before, but still weak when hot. Don't really think anything was wrong with the prior battery other than slightly lower total amps available. Voltage drop in cranking was about the same, and never enough to reset the clock.

Further T/S must wait for the weekend, as the bike is my only transport other than walking. Which I don't do. . . .

It's also rather difficult to compare cold readings and hot readings at some points, because you can't get to some things while the bike is hot - it will have cooled by the time you get stuff out of the way. I guess I could bake the starter in the kitchen and take some resistance readings, say 10 minutes at 175?

 

[Fred W]

No, still a starter issue. Replacement battery gives a bit better cranking than I had before, but still weak when hot. Don't really think anything was wrong with the prior battery other than slightly lower total amps available. Voltage drop in cranking was about the same, and never enough to reset the clock.
Further T/S must wait for the weekend, as the bike is my only transport other than walking. Which I don't do. . . .

It's also rather difficult to compare cold readings and hot readings at some points, because you can't get to some things while the bike is hot - it will have cooled by the time you get stuff out of the way. I guess I could bake the starter in the kitchen and take some resistance readings, say 10 minutes at 175?

Maybe you need to install the "hooks" to enable testing in-vivo. Install a piece of test wire from each point that you think you might want to make a measurement from and run it out to where it will be accessible, like up under the seat. Make sure to tie-wrap them out of harms way and tape off any bare ends so you don't short something out unintentionally. These test wires don't have to be a heavy cable as the meter won't draw any appreciable current.

 

[SCRider]

Looking at the magnet that was loose, it looks like there are 2 sets of rub marks, one more centered and oval shaped and the other across the entire back. Just a thought but maybe the rubbing occurred due to a worn bushing in the rear of the starter (causing the oval mark) and that is what eventually caused the magnet to come loose (causing the longer marks)? From the service manual, it looks like there is a needle bearing in the front but just a bushing in the rear. The force of the gears pushing apart would cause the rear of the shaft to be pushed toward the engine. That wouldn't happen to be where the loose magnet was oriented, would it?

 

[Zorlac]

I dunno, but are you getting close to the $360 aggravation mark yet?

 

[dcarver]

You probably need a new starter. Seen this on high mileage trucks and cars. Starter drags when hot. Think this was mentioned earlier. If it has been jump started with high amperage the windings may be damaged.

Excellent post - have you thought about putting the starter motor in the wives best oven at 350F for 20 minutes then hooking it up to a healthy battery? For a load on the starter, connect the output to a shaft then fire up the bbq and rotisseire a big old hog.

I knew it would eventually involve the wife's oven, just sayin'...

 

[wfooshee]

I dunno, but are you getting close to the $360 aggravation mark yet?

I'd be looking at a salvage on eBay, and I've talked with Mike about poor Isabella's starter.

 

[Zorlac]

I dunno, but are you getting close to the $360 aggravation mark yet?

I'd be looking at a salvage on eBay, and I've talked with Mike about poor Isabella's starter.

Judging from you disassembly pics, I'd be thinking about the potential for a used starter to go TU and then have to go back in.I'd visit the local starter rebuild shop first unless I could find a real low mileage cherry on the cheap.

 

[wfooshee]

I dunno, but are you getting close to the $360 aggravation mark yet?

I'd be looking at a salvage on eBay, and I've talked with Mike about poor Isabella's starter.

Judging from you disassembly pics, I'd be thinking about the potential for a used starter to go TU and then have to go back in.I'd visit the local starter rebuild shop first unless I could find a real low mileage cherry on the cheap.

My in-house labor rate is a lot lower than the difference between 50-80 bucks plus shipping and nearly 400 bucks plus shipping. I wouldn't mind doing that twice a year to stay under a hundred bucks for a starter. Hell, I'm probably gonna ride to Nawleans to pull Isabella's one weekend unless Mike says stay the hell away from his daughters. (Hey, no leer smiley. . . B) ) (It's a joke! They're under-age and I'm very happily married.) (Which in itself seems odd on this board.)

 

[Patriot]

I guess I could bake the starter in the kitchen and take some resistance readings, say 10 minutes at 175?

oh, yea, I want to hear Jan's reaction to that :blink:

reminds me of the time I split the cases on my dirt bike 2 stroke and slipped them into my Mom's oven on bake to replace the roller crank bearings. Ah, well, let's just say she wasn't happy; especially since I didn't clean off the grease/oil/gunk off the cases real well and that stuff put out an, ah, odor when baked...

 

[Patriot]

I'm very happily married.

I dunno, Jan didn't say that about her to me

unless Mike says stay the hell away from his daughters

I'll sell ya either or both of my two (14-looks like me & 16-looks like wifey and probably your first choice) daughters for $6000 and I'll throw in the starter gratus; so I can purchase this or similar:

https://www.fjriders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2866

Seriously, I'm looking into who and what it would take to fix Isabella as we speak as another option.

I guess a starter with 100k miles still has lots of life in it. The bike "used" to start right up with no issues.

Even with a marginal battery, it would crank up.

 

[wfooshee]

Well, a starter's mileage really doesn't matter. I bet you use your starter about a tenth as many times per mile as me. If I get a 300-mile Saturday I'm having a Big Month. Most of my miles are to work, to the store, to Dad's house, etc. I start the bike 6 or 8 times in 30 or 40 miles most days.

But if you're gonna fix 'er up, I can look around for a salvage starter, or get mine rewound locally (I think).

BTW, edited the bike pic to point out where the starter came from, for those that don't know. It sits behind the engine under the throttle bodies on the left side.

 

[Geezer]

Seriously, I'm looking into who and what it would take to fix Isabella as we speak as another option.

Not that I want to do wfooshee out of a nice used starter, but if I were had to choose I'd spend a couple thousand fixing my bike rather than risk an engine swap or spend a whole lot more on a replacement bike.

 

[wfooshee]

(14-looks like me & 16-looks like wifey and probably your first choice)

Ya know, somebody who wasn't your friend would tell on ya and get yer ass kicked out of the house. . . . . :assassin:

But I don't need no more dotters, waitin' fer the last one to graduate and hit a college somewheres so's we can "empty nest" for a while.

'Specially not no damn teen dotters. Holy crap!!!!!

You ever have anything like this old thread in your house????

 

[Patriot]

You ever have anything like this old thread in your house????

gawd, yes

AIW (angelic italian wifey) understands me and puts up with me without pushing my buttons pretty effectively...I'm lucky, fortunate, and quite blessed...happily married for 22.5 years and neither of us are going anywhere

now teen daughters...wow. I only have a big bro five years older (I'm 50) and a neurotic mother...know absolutely nothing about women, especially teen age, and books don't seem to help me out much. Yes, definitely brain damaged as Bill Cosby says. And they have opposite personalitys...Emily da 16 year old is like her mother, quiet, stuffs her emotions, doesn't talk, like pulling teeth to get her to share especially her opinions and feelings. Then there's my mirror Mary Beth da 14 year old...wears her emotions on her sleeve, blurts out whatever comes to mind...must, I say must have the last word, talks over any kind of advice or preaching shaking her head.

Geez. I continually know why some animals eat their own young.

but all three human pets are healthily afraid of me and what I might do...I've convinced them I suffer from my mental illness close to the same as before meds and when I kick into mania, watch out !!!

There are days I think how nice it might be to just be single with my Feejer and my 4 dogs. I can control the Feej, and the dogs offer unconditional love as long as you throw them the occassional $2 can of dog food. And best of all, they can't talk.

 

[Patriot]

Seriously, I'm looking into who and what it would take to fix Isabella as we speak as another option.

Not that I want to do wfooshee out of a nice used starter, but if I were had to choose I'd spend a couple thousand fixing my bike rather than risk an engine swap or spend a whole lot more on a replacement bike.

the Pistons, Rings, and bearings have 100k miles on them. Not a secure feelin'.

and there's no guarantee pulling the head might show damaged pistons, stuck rings, or out of spec rod bearings.

and the price is the same, as I've been advised by the local shop that has done 100 engine swaps mostly on sport bikes, if all goes well on the fix with no unknown parts and repair needed, and potentially more $$$ if the lower end needs work.

He says he'd highly advise splitting the case and spec ing everything in the lower end if fixing the bike.

Engine swap with a 20k engine seems to be a no brainer under the circumstances.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Seriously, I'm looking into who and what it would take to fix Isabella as we speak as another option.

Not that I want to do wfooshee out of a nice used starter, but if I were had to choose I'd spend a couple thousand fixing my bike rather than risk an engine swap or spend a whole lot more on a replacement bike.

^^^^ I heartily concur (unless there are just no competent engine repair professionals left in this country? -- which I doubt is true...).

It's been my experience that the plethora of 'unknowns' possible with used assemblies by-far negates that choice over the money spent on known good (new) parts and proper (maybe even more precise/correct than factory?) repair work.

Of course, YMMV...

 

[FJRnut]

Well, a starter's mileage really doesn't matter. I bet you use your starter about a tenth as many times per mile as me. If I get a 300-mile Saturday I'm having a Big Month. Most of my miles are to work, to the store, to Dad's house, etc. I start the bike 6 or 8 times in 30 or 40 miles most days.
But if you're gonna fix 'er up, I can look around for a salvage starter, or get mine rewound locally (I think).

BTW, edited the bike pic to point out where the starter came from, for those that don't know. It sits behind the engine under the throttle bodies on the left side.

I'm not sure what happened to my reply a few days ago. But I have a junk yard motor in my FJR. Unknown mileage.

My first engine did exactly what you have described since the first hot spring day. I picked it up in Oct 02. I usually buy a new battery every year or two. It's not the fix, but it seems to help. I've had at least 4 batteries now, so getting a bad battery should not be the story.

Anyway, at 41K miles I installed a used junk yard motor. It's starter came with it. I have the same problem. 82K now.

Take this evening for example- I was putting along with my 11 yr old daughter and realized after 15 miles, I forgot to lock the Givi trunk. The key is on the ignition and I knew not to shut off the bike as hot as it was. I would rather chance the box coming off than the bike not starting again. Pretty sad huh?

So, wfooshee, I have my old starter laying on my bench. I took it to a reputable starter repair shop here in town and they said nothing wrong with it.

It's yours for free. Almost.

I want you to once and for all figure out the problem and show me the way to fixing mine. That's not saying do it for me, but let me know your solution.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think it's the starter, even though your magnet came loose. When I get the chance to get off my lazy butt, I'm going to get the battery/starter cables made into larger size. A local battery shop will do that if you give them dimensions. I've ohmed everthing out and can't find anything wrong, other than that pesky not starting. :angry:

 

[wfooshee]

I'll take the starter as a trial or comparison if nothing else. If my bike's better with it I'll send ya some cash or something. If not, I'll send it back and at least I'll know to keep digging.

As for locking your case, does your key not come out without shutting off the bike? Mine does. Might not supposed to, but it has as long as I've had the bike, a bit over 2 years now.

As for batteries, I replaced the one that was on the bike when I bought it, almost immediately. I've just replaced that one when this started happening.

I've removed and examined every cable and connection between the battery, starter relay, starter, and the engine ground. I found no corrosion, no flaky connections, no "hairy" loose strands, nothing but shiny clean bolts and spades. Took a brush to them anyway, reassembled, no change. Borrowing a battery from another Feejer would be a thing to try, but I have no Feejer friends locally, so I'm not going to be able to trade batteries with anybody to rule out a not-good-enough brand new battery.

A lot of people in this thread have said old starters get bad when they get hot, so maybe the starter is the key. I'll PM you an address if you want to send it. Like I said, I'll buy it if it fixes the bike, I'll send it back if it doesn't.

The thing that's scary is the suggestion that the engine has a mechanical condition that makes it hard to turn over when it's hot. That would seem to me to make it something that wouldn't run right, because for damn sure it gets warm when it runs, right? But maybe something hot soaks and . . . who knows?