Starter issues

[ionbeam]

Time to dig out the volt meter and troubleshoot the problem.

The first step should be to fully charge the battery and then check the battery voltage. Wait an hour or so and check the battery voltage again, if it has dropped significantly either the battery is bad or there is something drawing too much quiescent current.

Check the battery for voltage drop when cranking. If the battery voltage sags too much you will need to determine if the battery is weak or the starter is drawing too much current. A good indication of very excessive current draw would be a resetting clock.

If the battery voltage remains good, do a voltage drop test of the cables and starter relay. If the starter relay and cables check out OK and the battery voltage remains good the starter has to be bad.

There is an outside chance that you may actually have a mechanical problem with the engine/clutch causing excessive drag when hot. This would show up as excessive starter current draw.

I don't know if you need help with these checks, FredW and I have written test procedures for others.

 

[wfooshee]

Battery voltage at the battery terminals gets down to just under 9 volts when it fails to crank. Clock does not reset. I'd like to see your procedures for testing the rest of it out, though, if you could PM me your cheat sheet.

As for wiring that carries cranking current, you have the both battery terminals, two big connectors on the starter relay, the starter terminal, and the chassis ground on the front of the engine. Did I miss any? All of those connections are clean, shiny, and uncorroded.

As for your clutch or mechanical when hot, I've long made it a habit to start in neutral, as even before this started happening I'd see faster cranking in neutral rather than clutched in first gear, hot or cold.

And thinking back, this not-starting-when-hot issue first appeared the second weekend of July. I'd gone over to Pensacola to the Blue Angels beach airshow, and on the way back got stuck in stop and go traffic on three separate occasions. I'm talking a half hour to go 6 lights. Fans cycling all the time, feet cooking. At one point I pulled off to hit my water cooler I carried in the top case, and it wouldn't start after that. It was this behavior, slow crank, acted dead, but clock never reset. I got a push and bump-started it and got home OK, but ever since that day, it's been iffy on a hot start at least half the time.

And maybe it bears repeating, but if I jump it from a car or a portable booster battery, something with obviously more amps than the bike's battery, it never fails to crank full speed and start. That's why I replaced the battery first, thinking I'd drawn it down to the bottom of its charge capacity. New battery made very little difference, thus the starter exploration.

 

[Bustanut joker]

Man! I don't like reading this one... :huh:

I've been at war with my starter for two years now (same situation) Tell me I don't have to pull that bugger.

Ah Hell, then again the way the weathers been up here I just might snow soon :dntknw:

:jester:

 

[Patriot]

huum, guess I won't pull mine now...

 

[Bustanut joker]

huum, guess I won't pull mine now...

Don't tell me yer still pullin' it at your age... :blink:

:jester:

 

[dwhartwell]

You need to get one of these. Sears Amp meter and clamp it over the battery cable. Crank the starter and read the amperage. I can't find a spec for the current draw. If you have a buddy with an FJR, measure theirs as a reference.

Sadly, these tests need to have the starter motor removed and pulled apart.

Armature coil

Commutator resistance “1”

0.024–0.030 Ω at 20 °C (68 °F)

(this measurement is between opposite commutator pads where each opposite brush will touch)

Insulation resistance “2”

Above 1 MΩ at 20 °C (68 °F)

(This measurement is between each commutator pad and the motor where your scraping was seen)

If out of spec, replace says the manual.

Another check before going back down the starter road is to get a volt meter and measure the voltage

drop between the positive cable from the battery to the starter relay and to the positive cable going

to the starter. Measure the voltage drop cold and hot. If the voltage read increases quite a bit, you likely have a defective relay.

What you are effectively doing here is measuring the voltage drop across a resistor.

I just read your last post again and you state that the voltage drops to 9V. So.. assuming your battery is good the

issue is not the relay, the starter is pulling too much current.

 

[wfooshee]

You need to get one of these. Sears Amp meter and clamp it over the battery cable. Crank the starter and read the amperage. I can't find a spec for the current draw. If you have a buddy with an FJR, measure theirs as a reference.

Sadly, these tests need to have the starter motor removed and pulled apart.

Armature coil

Commutator resistance “1”

0.024–0.030 Ω at 20 °C (68 °F)

(this measurement is between opposite commutator pads where each opposite brush will touch)

Insulation resistance “2”

Above 1 MΩ at 20 °C (68 °F)

(This measurement is between each commutator pad and the motor where your scraping was seen)

If out of spec, replace says the manual.

Another check before going back down the starter road is to get a volt meter and measure the voltage

drop between the positive cable from the battery to the starter relay and to the positive cable going

to the starter. Measure the voltage drop cold and hot. If the voltage read increases quite a bit, you likely have a defective relay.

What you are effectively doing here is measuring the voltage drop across a resistor.

Ya know, you're about 9 hours late with that test info. Never thought to check it while it was out, I was so sure the magnet was the problem, as clean as everything else was.

Man! I don't like reading this one... :huh:
I've been at war with my starter for two years now (same situation) Tell me I don't have to pull that bugger.

Ah Hell, then again the way the weathers been up here I just might snow soon :dntknw:

:jester:

Well, while everything's out you can check your neutral switch. . . . .

 

[dwhartwell]

You need to get one of these. Sears Amp meter and clamp it over the battery cable. Crank the starter and read the amperage. I can't find a spec for the current draw. If you have a buddy with an FJR, measure theirs as a reference.

Sadly, these tests need to have the starter motor removed and pulled apart.

Armature coil

Commutator resistance “1”

0.024–0.030 Ω at 20 °C (68 °F)

(this measurement is between opposite commutator pads where each opposite brush will touch)

Insulation resistance “2”

Above 1 MΩ at 20 °C (68 °F)

(This measurement is between each commutator pad and the motor where your scraping was seen)

If out of spec, replace says the manual.

Another check before going back down the starter road is to get a volt meter and measure the voltage

drop between the positive cable from the battery to the starter relay and to the positive cable going

to the starter. Measure the voltage drop cold and hot. If the voltage read increases quite a bit, you likely have a defective relay.

What you are effectively doing here is measuring the voltage drop across a resistor.

Ya know, you're about 9 hours late with that test info. Never thought to check it while it was out, I was so sure the magnet was the problem, as clean as everything else was.

Man! I don't like reading this one... :huh:
I've been at war with my starter for two years now (same situation) Tell me I don't have to pull that bugger.

Ah Hell, then again the way the weathers been up here I just might snow soon :dntknw:

:jester:

Well, while everything's out you can check your neutral switch. . . . .

Sorry, wish I could have seen and replied sooner. Good luck. You can still make the current measurements easily. You will also need a reference bike with a good starter. If I had a meter, I'd get that reference for you.

 

[dwhartwell]

Years ago when I was working on 60's and 70's vehicles, it was not uncommon for a starter to fail to start the engine when hot. It drew too much current due to being worn or shorted windings. A new starter was the solution. In your case, make the measurement to narrow it down. Also hopefully your not fighting a second bad battery.

 

[dcarver]

Damn, sound exactly like something that would happen to me. Good luck WooFoo..

 

[Fred W]

Walter,

The fact that your battery voltage never dips down low enough to reset the clock and tripmeter makes me think that the battery is not the root cause of your problem. And yet, when you put a car battery on with jumper cables it spins up fine. So we can assume then that the problem is one where the starter power is on the hairy edge of being enough to do the job. Because of the added capacity of a car battery, it doesn't droop as low as the puny FJR battery does, thereby delivering more current and spinning the starter with more power.

So something is limiting the current through the starter, and that something gets worse at higher temps.

A list of all of the possible things are:

Battery (you said it's new, what type? Maybe swap batteries with a buddy? (known good one)

+ and - battery terminal connections

Battery cable (heavy wire) from battery to the starter relay

Starter relay (internal contacts)

Heavy wire from starter relay to the starter motor itself

Starter motor (internally)

Electrical (ground) connection of the starter motor body to the engine.

Electrical connection of the engine to the frame

Battery cable between the frame and negative battery terminal.

An increase in resistance of any of these things in the series circuit path will reduce the current to (and therefore power of) the starter to turn it over. The good news (sort of) is that your bike is changing symptoms with temperature. So if you make measurements cold and compare them to hot you should be able to pinpoint where the resistance is changing.

The very first diagnostic test I would make is to measure the voltage from the electric terminal of the starter motor itself to the case of the starter. In the case of any of the other things on the above list being the source of added resistance, the hot test cranking voltage at the starter will be lower than the cold. If that's the case then you can sigh a breath of relief and re-look at every connection, relay and cable, etc. making the same hot and cold voltage drop test until you find one that goes up with temp.

PS - even if does turn out to be your starter motor that's going south, I hear there is a guy down in your neck of the woods that may be parting out an '04 here really soon.

[edit] Unfortunately, measuring the series current with a clamp-on ammeter is a sort of a go / no-go test. It will only tell you if the current is normal or not and will not tell you where in the series circuit the fault is (because the current will be the same everywhere in the circuit). I am making the assumption that the current is lower than normal. If the current was higher than normal (bad starter motor) it would probably cause the battery to sack out more (and reset the clock, etc.) . But it would be worth knowing for that reason.

 

[Constant Mesh]

It's likely the battery.

My '04 developed the same problem. The OEM battery was almost 5 years old. After a hot shutdown (fueling stop, etc.) it would often have cranking difficulty. With a new battery it never occurred again.

But none of the starting components experience all that much cooling in 15 or 20 minutes.

I would speculate that the battery misbehaves after being slowly charged during many minutes of riding.

It might behave the same exact way if you slowly charged the battery in your garage for say an hour or so and then you tried to start the engine. Or maybe start the cold engine, shut it down for an hour's charge in the garage, then attempt a restart.

------

The wire/conductor which is connected to the battery's negative post connects directly to the engine crankcase. The frame of the bike is not a component of the electrical system.

 

[radman]

Have a starter/alternator shop check that starter out. Some thoughts.

1) Yammis don't like brushes that are even 1/3 to 1/2 gone. At least that's been their history.

2) Which came first, the chicken or? Did the magnet move and THEN start rubbing, or do you have a failing bearing/bushing which allowed the armature to strike the magnet?

3) Batteries have been known to be shit right outta the box.

In any case, I have a feeling a good starter/alt shop can test the unit thoroughly and if there's a problem, find it. I wouldn't hesitate myself to go that route-they play with 'em all day, and know little secret smokey things we can only guess at.

 

[Rolavine]

Hello everyone I was reading with some interest as mine has been doing the same thing for about 2 to 3 years now. I actually do get the resetting of he clock and mileage thing. I have a 2003. So I asked the service guy and the first thing he said was it is not the started or solenoids. He said the first place to look is at the ground wires going to the engine. Her are his reasons. 1) a hot engine will require more juice to start because the resistance in the wires is higher. So if you are having an issue especially when very hot and on a hot day the battery has to produce extra power it may be creating an arch to start. 2) the other place may be the wires going to the solenoids as they either work or do not he said there really is not work sometimes with them. So today I will take apart the fairings and trace the negative from the battery to the engine or frame and check my connections and let you all know. I only have 67K on mine so I think my starter is good for another 39K or so. :dribble:

Interesting, I fixed that same problem on my bike just by cleaning the battery terminals on the battery and on the connecting wires, but checking the engine and bike ends makes a lot more sense since a lot more heat. I'll do that if I can ever find them, I remember now why I loved naked bikes.

 

[Bustanut joker]

I'll do that if I can ever find them, I remember now why I loved naked sheep.

Lemme help ya out son...

Adult sheep finder.com It's all ya need

:lol:

:jester:

 

[MotorToad]

Hello, Mr. Fewshy. I got your voicemail yesterday but my batt'ry is dead (sound familiar?) and the charger cable is at John's house.

I think the problem might have something to do with the voltage regulator. Other than my old FZR, I've almost always seen these fail to low voltage when hot. I know the bike has had long-term issues with "why's the voltage doing that" and it might be dropping the system voltage when it's hot. Completely guessing, though.

 

[wfooshee]

I've never seen any odd voltage, I have a digital voltmeter hooked up and always on. Only time I've seen low voltages when it's running is when I used a lot of battery to get it started, I'd see mid-13s for a while, and it would creep up to the regular 14.1, 14.2 after a while.

I'm not sure how the regulator would affect cranking.

 

[MotorToad]

I remember you remarking about odd voltage issues when you bought it. I was thinking that maybe if the VR is going low when it's hot it'll have the battery draining through it instead of through the starter. Besides the starter its own self, I can't think of anything that'd cause sluggish cranking due to temperature and would get better when cooled. Plus, I said I was guessing.

 

[wfooshee]

The battery was toast when I bought the bike. New battery made it all better.

Hey, you have a sister that I made cry one Thanksgiving. Your avatar looks like her daughter. Don't change it just because I said that, I like your avatar. I was just pointing out the resemblance.

 

[MotorToad]

Okay, I've figured it out.

But I'm not going to tell you. My avatar isn't fat.

Actually, what I think you need to do is pull the starter out while it's still hot and not working and check the windings. So if it take 20 minutes to cool down and work, you'll need to get the thing off and tested in, say, 10 minutes or less.