Test Ride Nightmare!! Could use some advice please...

[FredandJeannesRacer]

You already have four grand in this bike.

What's another nine?

 

[Patriot]

Hey guys,
Thanks so much for your input on this. To clarify some things; I did sign a waiver that specifically excluded them from liability for injuries to me or anyone else and I also remember reading something about me being responsible for repairs to the motorcycle. After we went over the damage report and he told me how much he wanted for the motorcycle I told him I couldn't make a decision about it right away. He said that was fine with him but that he'd need the $4000 to cover the repairs just in case I decided not to buy the motorcycle. I let them charge my credit card $4000 with the understanding that I would let him know by the end of next weekend whether or not I'm buying the bike. If I buy the bike he'd credit back the $4000 and we'd finance the purchased at 9.5% zero down. If I don't buy the bike he keeps the $4000.

All this being said I'm really not happy about there being no warranty on the bike (although he said for $389 he'd give me a 2 year YES plan). And obviously, I'm not happy that the bike is damaged goods right from the get-go if I purchased it. What I definitely don't want to have happen is me buying the bike for 12-13 something thousand and possibly having regrets at a later time(i.e., some unseen damage or extensive repairs at a later date). At the same time walking away from this and having to pay $4000 for a test ride from hell sure is hard to swallow.

FUN!

Thanks,

David

you can NOT sign a waiver or declaration of responsibility which clear the OWNER of an insured vehicle or the business it's being use for. I have signed many a waiver that stated it was releasing a company for any injurys I might incur or my being responsible for any damages in the activity I've paid the company to indulge in...scuba diving with a company and a boat owner...friend gets hurt during the activity and the boat owner and scuba company's liability insurance kicks in for medical expenses for the "customer"...same on go-cart tracks and test drives of cars. The are insured and the signed waiver is not legally worth the paper it's written on. It's part of doing business and they are trying to sell motorcycles and decided to help them do so, they allow test rides. They check your license for a motorcycle endorcement, take your info so you won't steal it, keep your vehicle at the dealership while you ride, and they take the liability of damages on through their liability insurance.

Yes, I'd check with my insurance company and the family lawyer, but I'd walk away and let their liability insurance cover it.

They are trying to pull the wool over your head in many ways including the bike damage and the pressure for you to buy a non warrantied bike or pay for damages they are insured to cover. It's no different than if you sat on a bike at the dealership and accidently knocked it over getting off and the domino effect damaged 10 bikes. It was an accident and they are covered. You do not have any obligation at all to buy 10 bikes that got damaged or pay for the damage. It's a part of doing business. It's different if you on purpose kick down a bike which is a crime. That does not apply here in any way.

You need legal advice if you are having guilt over what happened and need you head screwed on straight with what legal obligation you have or don't. I see no way you are liable in my experience of folks under similar circumstances.

Yes, this is my 1.5 cents

 

[08FJR4ME]

1) Do not under insure yourself or MC!

Your right, I don't have comprehensive/collision protection on my bike because it's only worth about $3200.....but when test riding more expensive motorcycles I wish I would have given it more thought......lesson learned.

2) Understand what you are getting into when you sign away your rights! This alone tells me this guy is SHADY!



I'm not sure I would go so far as to call it Shady, any motorcycle dealer here in WA State would require signing a similar waiver before allowing a test ride.

I know you can test ride Harley's around here as long as you have insurance and a valid MC license. You are only on the hook for the first $500.00 according to their wavers.

3) You seriously let him charge 4K on your credit card with nothing in return!!!!!! CALL CREDIT CARD COMPANY QUICK!

I caused signifigant damage to their bike while test riding it and was solely at fault, so I don't see how I could have left there without covering the damages.

You may have caused the damage but i disagree that you were solely at fault.

If I tried to leave without doing anything I'm sure the police would have been called and this would have become much more fun.

The police showing up may have been a better solution because you would have a better idea where you stand.

I definitely would like more opinions on this by others on this board, I appreciate your opinions on this 08FJR4ME. Thank you

Your Welcome, and if you want opinions you surely will get them here. Just don't listen to Bust or Odot unless you want to know all about sheep! Edit: Oh yeh they will tell you all about shaving your anus too.

David, I hope I didn't rattle you to much. Your probably bench pressing 300 #'s by now. :download:

I certainly wouldn't give up riding over this. Yeh it sucks big time but it will pass.

Going from a cruiser to a sport tourer is a world of difference. Totally different bikes. The stealer (dealer) should have known this. Did he ask you any questions or give any advise before taking off or just hand you the keys and say have fun?

 

[fjrboomer]

Has anyone considered that the dealer is playing this game to get Tailwalk to pay the damage on the bike to save filing a claim with his insurance company and risk higher rates? That is my suspision and if you have insurance that would cover your here I would tell the dealer that you were going to contact your insurance company and so you need his insurance information for purposes of working out a settlement. If I am right he just might suddenly become more "customer friendly" and offer a better deal. You have nothing to lose by trying this in my opinion.

Good luck with this mess and I hope it all works out to your satisfaction. Glad you were not seriously hurt. If they did not get you adequate instruction on the AE before turning you loose on it that might also come into play.

 

[designeraccd]

IMO, this dealer SMELLS....bad. I'd say consulting a knowledgeable lawyer would be well worth the money. My local dealer, based on doing business with his shop for many years, well...simply can't concieve of my dealer acting like this shop you unfortunately have gotten involved with...find a good lawyer and good luck!

FWIW, out of 81 motorcycles I've owned, none has been more satisfying to me than my '06 FJR....manual gearbox, of course! DFO

 

[FJRBluesman]

TW - Does the bike really have $4K in damage? Maybe it's really only about $1500, if you did the repairs yourself. Maybe haggle with him on the repair etc for the bike OTD.

Bottom line:

1) You signed a waiver.

2) A lawyer you called said doesn't look good for you to just walk away from this.

3) The dealers are not idiots, they sell/repair bikes to make money, they cover their butts with waivers and much legaleaze, etc.

Granted the bike is damaged, by you, if it's really only a 5mph get-off, should be no real issues with buying the bike. Yeah it's been down, no frame damage, right?

Maybe deal with this guy, for an OTD price as is, do the repairs yourself, buy parts from Gary McCoy or other online places cheaper then dealers, or ebay.

You'll have a FeeJ out of it. Or you have nothing and gave the dealer $4K to test ride a FeeJ. May not be the best way to get a bike but...

Hind sight from us is easy, we weren't in the situation, under pressure, etc. Easy armchair lawyering on this. You have a week, think it over for a couple days.

Good luck let us know what you do.

 

[Tailwalk]

1) Do not under insure yourself or MC!

Your right, I don't have comprehensive/collision protection on my bike because it's only worth about $3200.....but when test riding more expensive motorcycles I wish I would have given it more thought......lesson learned.

2) Understand what you are getting into when you sign away your rights! This alone tells me this guy is SHADY!



I'm not sure I would go so far as to call it Shady, any motorcycle dealer here in WA State would require signing a similar waiver before allowing a test ride.

I know you can test ride Harley's around here as long as you have insurance and a valid MC license. You are only on the hook for the first $500.00 according to their wavers.

3) You seriously let him charge 4K on your credit card with nothing in return!!!!!! CALL CREDIT CARD COMPANY QUICK!

I caused signifigant damage to their bike while test riding it and was solely at fault, so I don't see how I could have left there without covering the damages.

You may have caused the damage but i disagree that you were solely at fault.

If I tried to leave without doing anything I'm sure the police would have been called and this would have become much more fun.

The police showing up may have been a better solution because you would have a better idea where you stand.

I definitely would like more opinions on this by others on this board, I appreciate your opinions on this 08FJR4ME. Thank you

Your Welcome, and if you want opinions you surely will get them here. Just don't listen to Bust or Odot unless you want to know all about sheep! Edit: Oh yeh they will tell you all about shaving your anus too.

David, I hope I didn't rattle you to much. Your probably bench pressing 300 #'s by now. :download:

I certainly wouldn't give up riding over this. Yeh it sucks big time but it will pass.

Going from a cruiser to a sport tourer is a world of difference. Totally different bikes. The stealer (dealer) should have known this. Did he ask you any questions or give any advise before taking off or just hand you the keys and say have fun?

Going to the gym did wonders, definitely needed to workout the tension. Thanks much for the input 08FJR4ME. At this point I called the credit card company and disputed the charge, explaining the circumstances. So they will contact the owner/manager to get his side of the story. I've also tried finding a lawyer to find out where I stand legally. We'll see what happens......keep your fingers crossed.

Thanks

David

 

[Tailwalk]

TW - Does the bike really have $4K in damage? Maybe it's really only about $1500, if you did the repairs yourself. Maybe haggle with him on the repair etc for the bike OTD.
Bottom line:

1) You signed a waiver.

2) A lawyer you called said doesn't look good for you to just walk away from this.

3) The dealers are not idiots, they sell/repair bikes to make money, they cover their butts with waivers and much legaleaze, etc.

Granted the bike is damaged, by you, if it's really only a 5mph get-off, should be no real issues with buying the bike. Yeah it's been down, no frame damage, right?

Maybe deal with this guy, for an OTD price as is, do the repairs yourself, buy parts from Gary McCoy or other online places cheaper then dealers, or ebay.

You'll have a FeeJ out of it. Or you have nothing and gave the dealer $4K to test ride a FeeJ. May not be the best way to get a bike but...

Hind sight from us is easy, we weren't in the situation, under pressure, etc. Easy armchair lawyering on this. You have a week, think it over for a couple days.

Good luck let us know what you do.

Will do, thanks for your insights into this mess.

 

[happyPuppy]

The only suggestion I could add is try an inquiry about lawyers on the pnwriders.com. I have heard of one woman in Tacoma that is supposed to be a Barracuda for bikers, but she handles mostly squidly type things as far as I know. Most people are not aware that WA is one of the only states you do not have to have any insurance on your bike. I just find it odd that a waiver can be created that covers them for allowing riders with unknown skill levels, ride bikes they have never ridden and they are in the clear of any liability. Did they do a TCLOCKS type look over of the bike at least? It just seems so odd it is new without YES on it, but I guess auction bikes are different. I would at least run the VIN and get the history on the bike, just in case as they sound a bit shady at a gut level. Since you had not agreed upon even a price he is using his asking price, not really what his damages were and he is out of pocket.

 

[biknflyfisher]

Tailwalk:

Surely not a great situation, but one that IMHO can be worked out with the dealership.

My Thoughts:

1. Man up - this was your goof not the dealerships. I bet once the emotion wears off, it will be remembered that a heavy twist of throttle on a cold tire was the culprit. It appears you are trying to do the right thing here and I applaud that.

2. IMHO no lawyer is going to take a case like this unless he/she feels like doing community service. There is simply not enough $$ in this for a lawyer to become interested. But, why involve the legal system wth this?

3. You are being told to just "walk away" -sorry, I wasn't raised that way and am very surprised at some of those here advising you to do this. Just not the "right" thing to do in my mind.

4. Your current insurance will not help you whatsoever if all you had was PL/PD on your bike. Your homeowners insurance excludes anything to do with a licensed motor vehicle so that is a no-go as well.

5. Go back to the dealership and work you way through this. I would negotiate on the price to fix the bike and just make the best of what is now a bad situation.

Good Luck!

biknflyfisher

 

[SCWatts]

Contact your company. If you signed a waiver accepting responsibility, this is your only hope at not eating the $4k.

 

[scubatech]

I used to sell motorcycles at a large dealer. ALL new never licensed bikes came with the factory warranty in place! The dealer used to cringe at the thought of a test ride. The customer would then have to put a deposit down,sign a waiver and at that point I could allow the ride. If say Honda gave us test ride bikes they would carry the insurance coverage. It is very expensive to insure m/c's for test rides. Good luck on this.

 

[mr.paul]

I am one more guy that thinks more of you for not just walking away. Personal ethics will always be with you.

I do realize though, that the dealer doesn't have much power in this transaction. You can walk away and buy from anyone. He knows that. He is stuck with a liability to sell. I would say work out a reasonable deal that works for both of you given the market. This bike isn't a one-of-a-kind so you don't have to be strongarmed. Just use fairness as a guide. You will feel better about yourself forever.

I liked the comment that reminded you that, hey, you still end up with an FJR! That is cool!

I have a 2006 I bought new for 12,500+gobblety ****. I knew it wasn't the best possible deal at the time (though also not the worst), and seeing new FJRs now going for 10,500-11,500 does make me chuckle. But, I have had the best bike in the world for over 3 years. I have enjoyed it immensely. Was that worth 300 bucks a year over the time I have owned it, versus not having it? no question it has been!

of course, my 2 cents is all.

mr.paul, from Minnesota

 

[zorkler]

I went down on my 05 2 times and 4 k is too much cash he is fuckiin you HARD .

 

[canyonman]

It was an AE correct? ever ride a 145hp motorcycle with a push button clutch?

Find a good lawyer, contact your insurance, put your feelings aside.

I'll bet the tune changes with a couple calls from the above.

 

[terp84alum]

These posts about feeling guilty about having the dealer to the right thing kill me. Don't you think the cost of insurance, among other things, is included in the way these guys price their products and services?

 

[jjsC6]

Some more info....
There is no police report in this case. I do have motorcycle insurance but my policy does not have collision/comprehensive coverage, so my insurance won't pay for the damage for sure. Even if I did have insurance to cover this I probably wouldn't inform them for the amount involved......my rates would just go way up and I'd have to pay a $1000 deductible in that case too.

I definitely want to do the right thing here. I chose to test ride that bike and I was the one who lost control of it. I would never choose an option that screws the dealer or that I can't morally live with. Besides, we all want more dealers that are willing to allow us to test ride bikes.....if every time someone crashed on a test ride they screwed the dealer, we'd never get to do test rides and I believe that is what has already been happening.

Anyways, I sure appreciate all your support and input......fire away keep letting me know what you think.

Best regards,

David

David, I have opinions (don't we all!) but I have no facts. But I do want to tell you how much I appreciate your "stand up" attitude. If you lived closer you would have already passed some important criteria for becoming a friend. I commend you!

 

[MT home]

+1 on talking to an attorney. Only an attorney with knowledge of Washington law (not only the statutes, but how Washington courts have ruled on this type of legal issue) is going to be able to provide you with meaningful legal advice. I am NOT a Washington attorney, and can't advise you on what you should do, but offer the following information which you may find helpful:

1. Several forum members have said [paraphrasing], "Don't worry, the dealership is insured, and that's what insurance is for." Virtually all forms of insurance provide for "subrogation", which means that if an insurance company pays out on a claim that results from the negligence of anybody other than the insurance company's insured [their own customer], then the insurance company has the legal right to sue the [allegedly] negligent party. The insurance company gets to sue in its insured's name, too, so the case doesn't look like an insurance company is beating up on the little guy. The insured [the dealership in this case] has a contractual obligation to help the insurance company in the case, if the insurance company decides to institute a lawsuit. The dealership will probably be offered a chance to participate in the suit, too, to recover its deductible.

Subrogation cases are typically handled by law firms that take the cases from insurance companies on a contingency fee basis (1/4 to 1/3 of the ultimate recovery actually collected, whether by settlement or by court judgment). Subrogation firms are usually a high-volume operation, and have a pretty standardized way of cranking through the cases. They often rely on the defendants not promptly responding to the court documents served on them, and take a "default" when the defendant fails to file an appropriate response within the relatively short court timelines.

BTW, a payment by you to the dealership to cover the cost of its deductible does NOT prevent the insurance company from pursuing its subrogation rights against you. If the dealer says that such a payment will resolve the matter, then you really need to get that in writing, along with the dealer's agreement (also in writing) that it will indemnify and hold you harmless from a subrogation claim.

2. At this point, while it is safe to assume that the dealership has insurance that covers its inventory from casualty losses, you have no information about what the dealer's deductible really is. If the deductible is $5,000, this claim will never go to the insurance company. If the deductible is $2,500, the claim probably won't go in either. The $4,000 repair quote is only the dealer's retail price, not the dealer's actual cost, as noted by many other posters. Without knowing the deductible amount, you're negotiating in the dark. If the dealer won't disclose the deductible amount, that may be a sign that the deductible is higher than the claimed cost of repairs, however. Note that the dealership can sue you directly for the property damage. How likely that is to happen is anybody's guess, however.

I hope the above information helps convince you that it is worth a few hundred dollars to spend consulting with a Washington attorney who does insurance litigation to advise you on how best to proceed. I know that it's hard to justify spending even more money, but it would be even worse to make a deal and pay out some substantial bucks, but still not be out of the [legal] woods.

Finally, no disrespect is intended to other forum members who have weighed in on your situation. There are lots of ways to approach this kind of situation, and what might work for my style of dealing with it doesn't mean that others (and maybe you) couldn't be successful with their approaches.

Good luck.

 

[jjsC6]

Okay, after reading all of the posts now, I think mr. paul and flyfishingdude (something like that name) up above have great advice and attitudes. I don't think you are anywhere near needing a lawyer. Most of what a lawyer would tell you at this point you could figure out on your own. If you signed a waiver, just ask the dealer for a copy of it. Regarding the warranty, call Yamaha yourself. It is what it is.

I'd say go back to the dealer and share with them some "quotes" on the same bike you have had from other dealers (just go buy what others have reported on this thread). Tell them you will offer them an average of the going rate for the bike based on other quotes. If you have to, call other dealers yourself.

From there, tell him that the price is for the bike "as-is", and you will fix it yourself after you buy it. My guess is that they will go for the deal as it keeps them from having to worry about selling it to someone else where they legally would have to disclose it is a wrecked bike.

<<edit>> The post above was being made while I was typing mine. As you can tell, I come from the school that contacting an attorney is a last resort when you can't work things out yourself. BUT, I would like to offer the following advice (again, facts are not on my side, but common sense is). If the dealer finds out you have contacted an attorney, it will immediately become an adversarial "negotiation", and it's very likely that the dealer will immediately quit negoatiating and get their own attorneys involved. Given that you DID in fact wreck their bike and you DID in fact give them $4,000 - they have a lot of leverage of their own - so why turn it into a pissing contest if you can still try to resolve it in a friendly manner?

 

[ultimateanswer]

OK... I am a sales manager for a motorcycle dealership in Oklahoma City, OK. The way that this would work for us is there would be a damage and liability waiver in place. Which it sounds like it was in this case with you. In this waiver it basically states that we, as the dealership, are not liable for any damages to you the rider, or OUR bike. Our insurance only covers damage to our vehicles in the event of a break in, storm damage or other natural disaster, and movement damage.

Now under this waiver we as the dealership are required to procure a copy of both your properly endorsed driver's license and your comprehensive insurance verification or a "reasonable" damage deposit. Were any of these steps followed?? If not then it is my understanding that the dealership did not follow the proper steps to make sure that their risk was mitigated. I completely agree with the majority of the others on the board when they say it sounds like it is time to lawyer up and buckle down for the long fight. I can tell you right now that the Black value of this bike is very near the $8k-$9k mark. So it is absurd to purchase that unit with its history known to the buyer for $12k+. Also any vehicle that still has the MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin) BY LAW has the manufacturer's warranty in effect as soon as the "end consumer" titles the vehicle. These set of laws is call the Magnumson Moss laws and were enacted by Congress in the late80s early 90s, to protect the end consumer form buying a vehicle that has a warranty but for one reason or other the warranty is "invalid." My dealership buy quite a few of the dealer auction bikes that have had the MSO "re-assigned." All of them still have the original warranty plus whatever extended service plans that the end consumer chooses to purchase. If I was in this situation I would have my attorney verify the title status before I would go any further in this case. If they were trying to pass of a "demo" bike or factory return as new then you would have a case to counter sue them for false representation of a motor vehicle. You cannot sell a vehicle as new if it has been titled before.

Lawyer up, call your insurance agent or company and alert the to possible claim fraud arising from this, and get your money back from your credit card company. You should have NEVER given the dealer your credit card as security in this.