marcusorelius
Well-known member
Now that sounds like your "ultimate" answer!
Test Ride Nightmare!! Could use some advice please...
- Thread starter Tailwalk
- Start date
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Draggon Rider
Well-known member
David, doing what you feel is right, and getting hosed by the dealer are two different things.
You don't know what your options are until you talk to a professional.
Years ago a car dealer tried to pull a fast one on me. Late one night I put a deposit down on a car, the next day
the dealer sold the car to someone else. Fortunately I had a friend who was an attorney, I called him and he told me want my options were and what to do without getting him involved. I could have gotten him involved if needed later. The short of the story is that I contacted company and worked things out without getting a attorney involved and got a very good deal in the end. But I knew what my options were and where I stood.
In a different take on this story, what would you being doing now if you had completed the purchase and the get off had occurred on the way home? I’ve dropped my 05 several times and it still is a great bike. Parts can be replaced and it’s still a FJR.
You don't know what your options are until you talk to a professional.
Years ago a car dealer tried to pull a fast one on me. Late one night I put a deposit down on a car, the next day
the dealer sold the car to someone else. Fortunately I had a friend who was an attorney, I called him and he told me want my options were and what to do without getting him involved. I could have gotten him involved if needed later. The short of the story is that I contacted company and worked things out without getting a attorney involved and got a very good deal in the end. But I knew what my options were and where I stood.
In a different take on this story, what would you being doing now if you had completed the purchase and the get off had occurred on the way home? I’ve dropped my 05 several times and it still is a great bike. Parts can be replaced and it’s still a FJR.
Patriot
Isabella is Lazarus
whoever "owns" the bike is responsible to have insurance to cover any liability
if you loan your fjr to a friend and he gets in a accident, YOUR insurance is what covers; you are the owner of the vehicle in question
jjsC6
Well-known member
As I've admitted, I don't know the facts, but I do have a question about your answer. In the case of a rental car, what you are saying is not true. The driver is responsible. I realize loaning a bike may be different, but then again, so could test riding one be. Again, I'm not saying I know the answer, but the waiver he signed sounds like a legal document to me - just like a rental car agreement.
Patriot
Isabella is Lazarus
here's an example of a dealership insurance company that ruled that they do not cover damage and injury to folks test driving a dealer's automobile and getting in an accident with injury. They were sued and lost. Even though there was a signed waiver, they were responsible for covering the damage/injury.
Granted, this was in Minnesota, but it took me 20 seconds to find an example. In your state, things may be different...you definitely need legal advice on your situation, but you are probably OK as dealerships have to have insurance just for your situation:
https://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getc...551&invol=1
DAVIES , Judge
Appellant West Bend Mutual Insurance Company insures Stillwater Motor Company and L.A. Nelson Auto Sales, both auto dealers. West Bend's policy excludes liability coverage for customers involved in accidents while driving the auto dealers' cars if the customers carry their own personal automobile insurance coverage.
Customers of both dealers were involved in accidents while driving dealer-owned vehicles. West Bend denied coverage, and respondent insurers, who insured the customers' personal vehicles, each brought suit against West Bend. The district courts ruled in both instances that the West Bend liability coverage was primary because its customer-exclusion provision violated the Minnesota No-Fault Automobile Insurance Act and was not enforceable. We affirm.
terp84alum
Member
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It definitely is ironic that ultimateanswer gave what I feel is the ultimate answer as someone already posted above. Take the advice of ultimateanswer.
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biknflyfisher
Well-known member
Thoughts:
1. Unless WA is a no-fault personal auto insurance state, (like Patriot's MN reference) that case law example is completely irrelevant.
2. That example references LIABILITY meaning the operator was negligent/responsible for injuries and/or property damage sustained by another party/individual.
3. This situation involves physical damage (not liability) to the dealer's inventory, for which coverage will be subject to a deductible. My guess is that if this is a dealer of any size, they will have at least a $5K deductible or higher. The dealer would not turn this in to the insurance company.
4. Unless Tailwalker has a "legal buddy", you are looking at probably $200/hour for legal opinion on this. And I go back to my prior comment that there is not enough meat on this bone to get an attorney fired up about this for the "long haul" battle.
5. I find it curious that even though a waiver was signed, many here suggest the "nevermind" mentality. Once upon a time a man's word (or signature) was his "bond". It appears that Tailwalker is considering making good on his committment, so that is commendable.
6. Go back to the dealership and work out a compromise that is FAIR to both parties. If an agreement can be reached, you still are riding a great bike!
Good luck and be a good (strong) negotiator.
1. Unless WA is a no-fault personal auto insurance state, (like Patriot's MN reference) that case law example is completely irrelevant.
2. That example references LIABILITY meaning the operator was negligent/responsible for injuries and/or property damage sustained by another party/individual.
3. This situation involves physical damage (not liability) to the dealer's inventory, for which coverage will be subject to a deductible. My guess is that if this is a dealer of any size, they will have at least a $5K deductible or higher. The dealer would not turn this in to the insurance company.
4. Unless Tailwalker has a "legal buddy", you are looking at probably $200/hour for legal opinion on this. And I go back to my prior comment that there is not enough meat on this bone to get an attorney fired up about this for the "long haul" battle.
5. I find it curious that even though a waiver was signed, many here suggest the "nevermind" mentality. Once upon a time a man's word (or signature) was his "bond". It appears that Tailwalker is considering making good on his committment, so that is commendable.
6. Go back to the dealership and work out a compromise that is FAIR to both parties. If an agreement can be reached, you still are riding a great bike!
Good luck and be a good (strong) negotiator.
Draggon Rider
Well-known member
My point was in rebuttal to some of the comments about "buying damaged bike". If he had completed the purchase and dropped the bike on the way home he would be in a different frame of mind because he would now own new bike that was had been damaged and he would be dealing with it from a entirely different direction. The Insurance and liablity has nothing to do with the point I was making. I still think the dealer is trying to hose him.
Dangerous Dave
The older I get, the faster I was...
Mike, you and others keep stating this, but I don't think everyone realizes just how much laws vary from one state to another. Years ago, I agreed to take a friends bike around the block for him to get a bit of charge on the battery after we bump-started it. Long story short, the bike had been sitting for a couple years, tires were hard as a rock, and the first corner resulted in a low-side. He had no insurance on it since the bike had been sitting a long time. I contacted my insurance agent who informed me that here in Ohio, under such circumstances the insurance follows the operator, not the vehicle, and I was responsible for the damages. I worked it out with him to repair it myself since I am mechanic by trade, and chalked it up as a lesson learned.
With all that said, like others, I implore the OP to consult an attorney regarding the laws in his state. And as someone else said, there's a definate line between doing what's morally correct, and allowing yourself to be taken advantage of. Anyone here claiming to know the definitive answer without having intimite knowledge of his state laws, is NOT doing him any favors.
TW, please find out from someone who knows the laws of your state. IF the dealer's waiver means nothing and they are bound by law to cover it with their insurance, and you want to feel like you weren't screwing them, offer to pay some or all of their deductible, depending on what you're comfortable with. Beyond that, my personal opinion would be to walk away from this bike and buy another elsewhere, even if you ultimately lose your $4k. Unless they're willing to make a MUCH better deal for you to buy it. For not much more money than he's trying to doink you for on this bike, even after your $4k loss, you can buy a new, undamaged model with a warranty. Taking this bike off his hands would be honorable...taking it off his hands while letting him bend you over at the same time would not.
MHO, YMMV,
charismaticmegafauna
Well-known member
TW, didn't you hurt your back (or, your neck), too...?
FAIR is a place where the biggest pig wins the prize... :blink:
Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
Taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions is admirable and I commend you, as some others have done, for being the kind of person who does that.
Being screwed by the dealer is another thing entirely. If the dealer wanted to deal with you honestly, they would
1) be looking to make a deal for the actual market value of that bike, which is somewhere under 10K in the current market
2) offer a valid warranty, something is very fishy when they tell you that there is no factory warranty on a new bike, no matter how long it has been in inventory or whatever method was used when they acquired it from Yamaha
3) offer some sort of realistic arrangement to get the damage repaired
Your responsibility for the consequences only goes as far as paying market value plus minimal repairs, it doesn't include giving the dealer several thousand dollars of extra profit.
Being screwed by the dealer is another thing entirely. If the dealer wanted to deal with you honestly, they would
1) be looking to make a deal for the actual market value of that bike, which is somewhere under 10K in the current market
2) offer a valid warranty, something is very fishy when they tell you that there is no factory warranty on a new bike, no matter how long it has been in inventory or whatever method was used when they acquired it from Yamaha
3) offer some sort of realistic arrangement to get the damage repaired
Your responsibility for the consequences only goes as far as paying market value plus minimal repairs, it doesn't include giving the dealer several thousand dollars of extra profit.
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Karmak
Well-known member
-I will agree. I've had dealers refuse a test ride, stating that it would be an insurance risk. It's also hard to believe a waiver would make a difference. I think theat dealer is being a jerk.
Tailwalk
Well-known member
Hi everyone, thanks so much for all the input and advice. I've been busy since yesterday collecting information and I will also try to answer some of the specific questions that you have asked as well.
I've talked to two lawyers and in a nutshell, since I signed the waiver/contract which stated I would be responsible for repairs, the dealer or his insurance company could potentially take me to court if I tried to bail out. Both recommended that I negotiate with the dealer to come to a resolution and not risk going to court or having to hire a lawyer myself (very expensive). The good part of this is that I do have quite a bit of negotiating power too because the dealer most likely wouldn't want to have to file a claim with his insurance for the relatively small amount involved in this case(his deductible would be a big chunk of that) if I walked. In addition, the dealer, like me, would not want to have to pay a lawyer and go to court (fees and time) in a case such as this. So I realize that I definitely can negotiate to much better terms for myself and I will do that.
I called the credit card company less than 24 hours after the transaction to dispute the charge and explained the circumstances, the credit card employer told me they would contact the dealer to hear his side of it. The phone conversation with the credit card company employee occurred while the transaction was still pending so I believe (but I'm not sure about this part) that the credit card company will not process this transaction and this will give me more opportunity to negotiate how much I should pay if I choose to have the bike repaired to saleable condition and walk away.
As I've said before the dealer and his employees have treated me respectfully and without coercion so far in this situation. I also checked the prices of all the parts that were damaged and my dealer's prices were actually a little less than another Yamaha dealer I checked with. I'm still waiting for a labor estimate from the other dealer to see what they come up with. I realize that once again there is going to be a ton of wiggle room in this area because the dealer can charge me cost for parts and reduce or eat the labor. I will negotiating big time on this as well when I have more information.
To answer some specific forum questions:
I wasn't seriously hurt in the incident, I have a bruised left elbow and a sore back that seems to be very minor. This was a slow speed lay down about as gentle as they get. Even so, there were many different plastic and metal parts that were badly scraped and replacing those parts really adds up fast.
The dealer didn't give me any special instructions or warnings before I rode and they didn't check to see if I was insured (I'm insured). Not smart on their part and if things somehow go to court that would definitely go in my favor.
Canyonman---I've only riden a couple high horsepower bikes on test rides (I own a 6500cc bike). Obviously that inexeperience coupled with cold, new tires contributed to my incident.
I'm going to find out what the hell kind of warranty this bike has or doesn't have and find out it's exact history before even considering negotiating on it's purchase.
Right now I'm trying to determine what a 2008 FJR AE NEW is really worth purchased from a dealer. So far, some forum members have noted that brand new 08 FJR AE are selling in the low $10,000s out the door not including tax...... Does this sound right? I need more input on how much a NEW 08 FJR AE (with warranty) is worth.
The total cost out the door before taxes would be helpful? When I do searches on the internet the prices I see are all dealer asking prices.....not what the bikes are really selling for.
So there you have my update....Thank you all so much for you insight and help.
Safe Rides,
David
I've talked to two lawyers and in a nutshell, since I signed the waiver/contract which stated I would be responsible for repairs, the dealer or his insurance company could potentially take me to court if I tried to bail out. Both recommended that I negotiate with the dealer to come to a resolution and not risk going to court or having to hire a lawyer myself (very expensive). The good part of this is that I do have quite a bit of negotiating power too because the dealer most likely wouldn't want to have to file a claim with his insurance for the relatively small amount involved in this case(his deductible would be a big chunk of that) if I walked. In addition, the dealer, like me, would not want to have to pay a lawyer and go to court (fees and time) in a case such as this. So I realize that I definitely can negotiate to much better terms for myself and I will do that.
I called the credit card company less than 24 hours after the transaction to dispute the charge and explained the circumstances, the credit card employer told me they would contact the dealer to hear his side of it. The phone conversation with the credit card company employee occurred while the transaction was still pending so I believe (but I'm not sure about this part) that the credit card company will not process this transaction and this will give me more opportunity to negotiate how much I should pay if I choose to have the bike repaired to saleable condition and walk away.
As I've said before the dealer and his employees have treated me respectfully and without coercion so far in this situation. I also checked the prices of all the parts that were damaged and my dealer's prices were actually a little less than another Yamaha dealer I checked with. I'm still waiting for a labor estimate from the other dealer to see what they come up with. I realize that once again there is going to be a ton of wiggle room in this area because the dealer can charge me cost for parts and reduce or eat the labor. I will negotiating big time on this as well when I have more information.
To answer some specific forum questions:
I wasn't seriously hurt in the incident, I have a bruised left elbow and a sore back that seems to be very minor. This was a slow speed lay down about as gentle as they get. Even so, there were many different plastic and metal parts that were badly scraped and replacing those parts really adds up fast.
The dealer didn't give me any special instructions or warnings before I rode and they didn't check to see if I was insured (I'm insured). Not smart on their part and if things somehow go to court that would definitely go in my favor.
Canyonman---I've only riden a couple high horsepower bikes on test rides (I own a 6500cc bike). Obviously that inexeperience coupled with cold, new tires contributed to my incident.
I'm going to find out what the hell kind of warranty this bike has or doesn't have and find out it's exact history before even considering negotiating on it's purchase.
Right now I'm trying to determine what a 2008 FJR AE NEW is really worth purchased from a dealer. So far, some forum members have noted that brand new 08 FJR AE are selling in the low $10,000s out the door not including tax...... Does this sound right? I need more input on how much a NEW 08 FJR AE (with warranty) is worth.
The total cost out the door before taxes would be helpful? When I do searches on the internet the prices I see are all dealer asking prices.....not what the bikes are really selling for.
So there you have my update....Thank you all so much for you insight and help.
Safe Rides,
David
Bugnatr
Well-known member
TW, sounds like you are doing your homework. Also call Yamaha customer service and check on the YES. I could have bought one for my used FJR within the first year.
I too applaud your sense of right (you did crash his bike) and it just may be the dealer is a good guy too (some really are). We will know as this situation plays out. Strange how this thread brings out some true colors... just sayin'.
I too applaud your sense of right (you did crash his bike) and it just may be the dealer is a good guy too (some really are). We will know as this situation plays out. Strange how this thread brings out some true colors... just sayin'.
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Props to you Dave for taking the high road. I really don't know the extent of the damage no pix etc, so take the following for what I know so far. I agree with many posts and what your lawyer types told you, bottom line, they can take you to court, that will cost you money. I have no idea on WA laws on insruance etc.
If you are mechanically inclined, most tupperware issues are easy to replace yourself. Also some items that were "damaged" may not be bad and could be used still, they just won't be looking brand new etc. Of course the dealer would like to replace every panel or part etc, with the slightest scratch. They'll make money off the deal either way. The dealer sells parts, huge mark up. They do the labor huge profits to them too.
Maybe you can work a deal with buying the parts at their cost, or a tad more, and work out which parts to replace etc, and you buy the bike for $XX,XXX. Or you can always haggle with them on price and buy the FeeJ, then get it fixed at your leisure, and buy parts online or else where etc. You'd still have a great bike but slightly scratched up.
Good luck, keep us posted.
If you are mechanically inclined, most tupperware issues are easy to replace yourself. Also some items that were "damaged" may not be bad and could be used still, they just won't be looking brand new etc. Of course the dealer would like to replace every panel or part etc, with the slightest scratch. They'll make money off the deal either way. The dealer sells parts, huge mark up. They do the labor huge profits to them too.
Maybe you can work a deal with buying the parts at their cost, or a tad more, and work out which parts to replace etc, and you buy the bike for $XX,XXX. Or you can always haggle with them on price and buy the FeeJ, then get it fixed at your leisure, and buy parts online or else where etc. You'd still have a great bike but slightly scratched up.
Good luck, keep us posted.
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DaNav
Active member
Here's one currently for sale. Good luck with your negotiation....
https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-Yamaha...=item2a02e924e2
https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-Yamaha...=item2a02e924e2
COLDCUT
Well-known member
TW,
I commend you on being a stand-up guy (pardon the pun). The one thing that strikes me about this whole thread is what a great bunch of people this forum is made up of. While I do agree that your negligence ultimately led to this minor collision, I also think that dealerships assume a certain amount of risk by letting prospective customers test ride their bikes. This is why they most certainly carry insurance. I agree with one other forum member who advised you to find out the amount of the dealer's deductable. My guess is its right about $4000. Ultimately, the dealership doesn't want to send this to their insurance company and they do want you make this whole mess just go away. It sounds to me like the two of you are sufficiently motivated to strike a fair deal. There is no reason in the world that the dealer should be allowed to unjustly profit off of your unfortunate mishap. They are entitled to fair market value for the bike. Nothing more - nothing less.
I'm not sure if the bike still runs. If it does and you are able to strike a good deal, I would ride it home, prioritize the repairs and decide which ones have to be done by the dealer and which ones you can do yourself. With regard to any plastic repairs, I'm quite sure that the members of this forum can give you all the help you need to fix cosmetic blemishes. There's a fella named Garauld on this forum who can paint or powder coat just about anything.
I know this isn't the way you wanted to introduce a new bike into your future but all you can do is make the best of a bad situation. There's a good side to everything and maybe being thrown to a motorcycle forum full of strangers who are all willing to help a guy out will help erase your anxiety and embarassment. This was just an accident - Get over it and get ridin'.
I commend you on being a stand-up guy (pardon the pun). The one thing that strikes me about this whole thread is what a great bunch of people this forum is made up of. While I do agree that your negligence ultimately led to this minor collision, I also think that dealerships assume a certain amount of risk by letting prospective customers test ride their bikes. This is why they most certainly carry insurance. I agree with one other forum member who advised you to find out the amount of the dealer's deductable. My guess is its right about $4000. Ultimately, the dealership doesn't want to send this to their insurance company and they do want you make this whole mess just go away. It sounds to me like the two of you are sufficiently motivated to strike a fair deal. There is no reason in the world that the dealer should be allowed to unjustly profit off of your unfortunate mishap. They are entitled to fair market value for the bike. Nothing more - nothing less.
I'm not sure if the bike still runs. If it does and you are able to strike a good deal, I would ride it home, prioritize the repairs and decide which ones have to be done by the dealer and which ones you can do yourself. With regard to any plastic repairs, I'm quite sure that the members of this forum can give you all the help you need to fix cosmetic blemishes. There's a fella named Garauld on this forum who can paint or powder coat just about anything.
I know this isn't the way you wanted to introduce a new bike into your future but all you can do is make the best of a bad situation. There's a good side to everything and maybe being thrown to a motorcycle forum full of strangers who are all willing to help a guy out will help erase your anxiety and embarassment. This was just an accident - Get over it and get ridin'.
jjsC6
Well-known member
Good post. But to your comment above, don't forget that if the OP doesn't buy the bike, the dealer is stuck with a bike that is still being sold as a new bike, but now they have to disclose that its been wrecked. So even if the bike is rebuilt to look exactly like a new bike, it is very likely that they will not be able to sell it for as much money as they would have had it not been wrecked (would you buy a new bike from a dealer that had $4,000 damage to it?).
I'm not sure if that matters from a liability standpoint or not, but it is something to ponder.
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TownsendsFJR1300
Well-known member
If the bike was being sold as new, from a Yamaha dealership, it SHOULD have a years warranty from the day you buy it... Many dealerships sell left over bikes, they have warranties even thou the bike is from a preious year(or more).... (I bought a new 1985 Honda VT1100 in 1988, it had a years warranty from Honda)
My friend just bought a used 08 with 300 miles on the clock for $10,000. The warranty was out of date so he couldn't get the YES program.
I'd offer him 10k for it as it is and fix it myself as money/time permits. Make sure you get the warranty (it doesn't cost him anything, its from Yamaha).
That would be fair to all involved..
Scott
My friend just bought a used 08 with 300 miles on the clock for $10,000. The warranty was out of date so he couldn't get the YES program.
I'd offer him 10k for it as it is and fix it myself as money/time permits. Make sure you get the warranty (it doesn't cost him anything, its from Yamaha).
That would be fair to all involved..
Scott
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beemerdons
Certifiable Old Fart
Tailwalk, just wanted to say you have received some excellent and well thought out advice from many here on our FJR Forum!
And I want to add you're definitely a Motorcyclist of high character and I sincerely hope you become part of our FJR Fraternity!
And I want to add you're definitely a Motorcyclist of high character and I sincerely hope you become part of our FJR Fraternity!
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