The Curse of Odot

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RH. After I took the pictures I did put a crush washer under the lock nut. I don't have any money in the materials because I worked in a boatyard for years so I have a large stash of bronze and stainless. As for time, it took about an hour including pictures. Sure is nice having a lathe and mill with lots of tooling.

Rad. I agree that a socket head would be better and before I install it I will put one in. It might help with the install to be able to have a long allen wrench in the screw to line it up.

Yes I would trust it in my engine and will install it as soon as I think it is needed. The one thats in it now is new.

After I had a look at how the original is built I think it may well be a very weak link in a good motor.

 
Tis a sad day.... I'm really sorry to see this Howie..
Damn!

:jester:
You know it's a bad day when BustaNut doesn't BustYerNuts.. Damn RH, sorry to read this bad news. I'm not sure I'll go the manual CCT route, but I will replace the sucker every 25k and just call it '****** maintenance'....

Dang doode - break out the whiskey and have at it.. :****:

Don

 
Tis a sad day.... I'm really sorry to see this Howie..
Damn!

:jester:
You know it's a bad day when BustaNut doesn't BustYerNuts.. Damn RH, sorry to read this bad news. I'm not sure I'll go the manual CCT route, but I will replace the sucker every 25k and just call it '****** maintenance'....

Dang doode - break out the whiskey and have at it.. :****:

Don
Thanks, D.

 
Tis a sad day.... I'm really sorry to see this Howie..
Damn!

:jester:
You know it's a bad day when BustaNut doesn't BustYerNuts.. Damn RH, sorry to read this bad news. I'm not sure I'll go the manual CCT route, but I will replace the sucker every 25k and just call it '****** maintenance'....

Dang doode - break out the whiskey and have at it.. :****:

Don
Thanks, D.
Should I be mailing a bottle of Whiskey yer way, Howie?
 
That's a helluva price for an '06 motor with only 10k miles on it if one could get it at the current price...but would it plumb up to a Gen I frame, electrics, cooling, fueling, etc.?
I'm thinking it would be easier to just get a 1st gen motor from a crashed bike. At the very least the ECU is different on 1st and 2nd gens, and you'd need to switch that over. What complications that would cause is anybody's guess.

Has anyone ever done a 1st to 2nd gen engine swap?

I know Ionbeam was looking at swapping engines before he paid to repair his, so I'm sure he looked into that possibility when engine shopping.

FJRay,

The conversion idea gas great appeal. It sure seems easy to do it the way you did. If you started turning out bronze spacers and bulk purchase some nice stainless hardware, you could make up and sell us all the kits, like Brodie did with the relays. I bet you could sell a bunch. You could even take pre-orders here on the forum, like Brodie did, so you know you wont get stuck with a bunch of extra materials.

If you do decide to do this, be sure and price them high enough so you make it worth your while.

 
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FJRay,The conversion idea gas great appeal. It sure seems easy to do it the way you did. If you started turning out bronze spacers and bulk purchase some nice stainless hardware, you could make up and sell us all the kits, like Brodie did with the relays. I bet you could sell a bunch. You could even take pre-orders here on the forum, like Brodie did, so you know you wont get stuck with a bunch of extra materials.
They'd be like having sliders for the engine internals. I'd do it....

How often would one have to adjust the slack out?

 
I would have to install it in mine first and run it for awhile to see if all is well before I gave any thought making more.

The other problem in this world with more lawyers all the time it would be my luck to have something go wrong be it my fault or not and then any and all proceeds would be history. I suppose that is a cynical attitude but reality proves it true.

I will post up the size of the bushing and spacer for those that want to have their local machine shop turn out the bushing. The spacer is just 1/4" round stock and the screw is a standard 6mm case screw. A socket head may be harder steel but it is still threading into aluminum so I don't know that it is needed unless you really want it.

 
How often would one have to adjust the slack out?
Well, see, that's the thing....no one knows, unless there's a Feejer pilot with a manual CCT running around somewhere.

The OEM adjusts all the time. Literally every time the bike is cranked and run, the OEM will, if the spring is strong enough, unwind a bit to take up slack so in theory, it's always on the job, from the day the bike is first started after assembly....to the day you airmail a set of valves courtesy of your pistons because the spring has no more tension.

From everything I've read on the issue on the Kawasaki forums, ZX9s and 10s are noted for auto CCT problems, when the you hear a chain noise, you snug it up. It's a very unscientific measurement. That's why the auto CCT is so ubiquitous. You don't HAVE to think about it, until your engine shreds.

But doing the math, the OEM has a 1.25 inches of travel. Many around the FJR forum are replacing CCTs in the 40-50k miles range, because the OEM is no longer taking up enough slack. So 17 divided by red, carry the tune, add a half of Bustanut....if you changed oil every 3000 miles, you'd adjust a manual 75 thousandths of an inch every oil change.

Honest, Toe, I don't think anyone can give an honest answer, other than "if it rattles, he will come".

The only thing I would stake my motor's life on is this....if you hear your cam chain begin to rattle...5k miles, 15k miles, 50k miles, ???k miles...that means only one thing -- the OEM is no longer providing enough spring force to properly retension the chain. Now, how long before certain death do you have to get it replaced? Alan reported noise beginning at 20k, louder at 34k and suicide at 40k. So in his case he had 20k miles before "bang".

I heard MY first death rattle 7k miles ago and did the "bump up the idle speed and forget it" boogie.

Kind of a wide sample, if ask me. 7k to 20k. At least it DOES mean once you hear the rattle of impending failure, you DO have SOME time to address the issue, either with an OEM replacement or installation of a manual.

The problem I have with the OEM is having to rely on such a small, featherweight spring to do the job. When did my spring break, allowing disaster? Was it 7k miles ago when I first heard the rattle? That CERTAINLY was the point where the tension was no longer adequate. Or did the spring break Wednesday night during my post-fuel-pump install warm-up, allowing the plunger to retract? Since my CCT was already marginal, given the chain clatter 7k miles earlier, maybe it did break during my first post-repair run and the plunger backed off JUST enough to allow the chain to jump ship.

Whatever, there's just too many variables, all with very expensive outcomes.

Re-reading my last several posts, yeah, I am a bit "down" on the OEM CCT. And maybe I'm overreacting. I'm curious to know what Alan thinks about the auto vs manual CCT situation. I'll never trust one again.

I took the time to disassmble the auto unit on my Kawi last night. It, too uses a spring to take up slack. But it's a "zero-return" design, using a ratchet and pawl system to prevent backing out. The plunger on a ZRX CAN'T come out on its own and if the chain gets noisy, that means the ratchet is "between" clicks and can manually be moved into the next lock-down position. THe FJR's CCT is NOT, I repeat NOT a "zero-return" design. In fact it IS designed to return, hence the return screw in the CCT body. But the only thing that prevents the plunger from returning on its own is the tension of the spring. That's seriously wrong.

 
How often would one have to adjust the slack out?
Well, see, that's the thing....no one knows, unless there's a Feejer pilot with a manual CCT running around somewhere.

The OEM adjusts all the time. Literally every time the bike is cranked and run, the OEM will, if the spring is strong enough, unwind a bit to take up slack so in theory, it's always on the job, from the day the bike is first started after assembly....to the day you airmail a set of valves courtesy of your pistons because the spring has no more tension.

From everything I've read on the issue on the Kawasaki forums, ZX9s and 10s are noted for auto CCT problems, when the you hear a chain noise, you snug it up. It's a very unscientific measurement. That's why the auto CCT is so ubiquitous. You don't HAVE to think about it, until your engine shreds.

But doing the math, the OEM has a 1.25 inches of travel. Many around the FJR forum are replacing CCTs in the 40-50k miles range, because the OEM is no longer taking up enough slack. So 17 divided by red, carry the tune, add a half of Bustanut....if you changed oil every 3000 miles, you'd adjust a manual 75 thousandths of an inch every oil change.

Honest, Toe, I don't think anyone can give an honest answer, other than "if it rattles, he will come".

The only thing I would stake my motor's life on is this....if you hear your cam chain begin to rattle...5k miles, 15k miles, 50k miles, ???k miles...that means only one thing -- the OEM is no longer providing enough spring force to properly retension the chain. Now, how long before certain death do you have to get it replaced? Alan reported noise beginning at 20k, louder at 34k and suicide at 40k. So in his case he had 20k miles before "bang".

I heard MY first death rattle 7k miles ago and did the "bump up the idle speed and forget it" boogie.

Kind of a wide sample, if ask me. 7k to 20k. At least it DOES mean once you hear the rattle of impending failure, you DO have SOME time to address the issue, either with an OEM replacement or installation of a manual.

The problem I have with the OEM is having to rely on such a small, featherweight spring to do the job. When did my spring break, allowing disaster? Was it 7k miles ago when I first heard the rattle? That CERTAINLY was the point where the tension was no longer adequate. Or did the spring break Wednesday night during my post-fuel-pump install warm-up, allowing the plunger to retract? Since my CCT was already marginal, given the chain clatter 7k miles earlier, maybe it did break during my first post-repair run and the plunger backed off JUST enough to allow the chain to jump ship.

Whatever, there's just too many variables, all with very expensive outcomes.

Re-reading my last several posts, yeah, I am a bit "down" on the OEM CCT. And maybe I'm overreacting. I'm curious to know what Alan thinks about the auto vs manual CCT situation. I'll never trust one again.

I took the time to disassmble the auto unit on my Kawi last night. It, too uses a spring to take up slack. But it's a "zero-return" design, using a ratchet and pawl system to prevent backing out. The plunger on a ZRX CAN'T come out on its own and if the chain gets noisy, that means the ratchet is "between" clicks and can manually be moved into the next lock-down position. THe FJR's CCT is NOT, I repeat NOT a "zero-return" design. In fact it IS designed to return, hence the return screw in the CCT body. But the only thing that prevents the plunger from returning on its own is the tension of the spring. That's seriously wrong.
You hit the nail square on the head. A compression spring with the ratchet is a much better system. I am not seeing a way to convert the FJR unit.

My old Connie used to start making noise about every 10k and then the ratchet would take up the slack. It did that regular for over 80 k.

 
Just thinking again, but how hard would it be to fashion some kind of guard over the timing chain at the sprockets so that the chain can't jump teeth, no matter how much slack it has. Such a device would go on over a correctly timed chain and would fit closely enough to the sprockets that the chain would no be able to lift high enough on the teeth to skip. I'm not sure something like that could be retrofit (how do you fasten it, where does it bolt on?) but if designed in it would seem to be a good safety catch for a tensioner failure.

I've not been into the timing chain area of the motor, don't know first hand what it looks like, but it seems some kind of rail on the outside of the cam sprockets and another at the crank sprocket would keep the chain timed, no matter what. Sure, if the tensioner goes kablooey your valves will be out of time, but not by a tooth or more.

OTOH, if the slack is enough that a link could slap into the guard sideways or backwards, that would also be a Bad Thing. But would it be as bad as crushed valves?

 
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How often would one have to adjust the slack out?
Well, see, that's the thing....no one knows, unless there's a Feejer pilot with a manual CCT running around somewhere.

Honest, Toe, I don't think anyone can give an honest answer, other than "if it rattles, he will come".
Chain-driven overhead cams have been popular in (import) motorcycles in the U.S. since the 1960s. Automatic cam-chain tensioners began, iirc, to show in the '80s.

Back in the day, the manufacturer would spec the cam-chain tensioner check/adjust schedule in the periodic service literature. The adjustment procedure also specified the proper engine rotation/location for maximum tensioner effect (most slack in the rear chain-run).

It really wasn't a big deal -- either for those who religiously kept them adjusted or those who ignored them. Believe it or not -- I've heard noisy camchains from across the parking lot on some bikes and have even seen camchains worn thru the housing and visibly open to view....and, still running and being used.

Not FJRs, tho....!

'Fred W': I must admit that I started my bike today only to listen closely to the right side chain noise. I ride with earplugs all the time so I might not ever hear the slap-happy chain noise without a concerted effort.
It is a good idea to listen to your bike from time-to-time -- even, ride it (say, around a parking-lot) without a helmet, once-in-a-while.

THe FJR's CCT is NOT, I repeat NOT a "zero-return" design. In fact it IS designed to return, hence the return screw in the CCT body. But the only thing that prevents the plunger from returning on its own is the tension of the spring. That's seriously wrong.
This was posted a couple days ago:

'radman': The tensioner from Yammi shows a part number change. I would go new, they may have altered things a bit.
Historically, manufacturers (Kawasaki, for one) have tried different "patents" for cam-chain-tensioners when the 1st effort didn't work out. Maybe, Yamaha's superceded part # tensioner is really a "fix"...? :unsure:

Thanks for all your research and good luck with whatever road you choose to go down. :( -> :)

 
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Franks is out. Rough guestimate is he still had 3/4 of his travel to go (changing oil real often may have unseen benefits). An Idea Follows.

18-0873.jpg


In the XS650 Yammi, of which I had several, and built several motors for, a screw assembly tensioned a strong spring which acted against the plunger that pressed the chain guide for chain tension. The chain was correctly tensioned when you could see the right end of that plunger, which was exposed when a cap was removed, just barely moving in and out of the housing. In other words, some slack/no slack was the best. The spring would allow for this, while keeping it to a minimum. I notice that the FJR's allows no movement other than forward and against the guide, constantly tightening, but never slacking. Not sure about all this, but I'm thinking that rather than a solid tension against the guide, a stiff compression spring acting against it would be better, and allow for the tight/loose action that naturally occurs with a chain. Note, however, a XS650 cam is single, and acting on 2 cylinders, while the FJR's is a double, and working 4 cylinders worth of valves. :unsure:

I'm gonna work on an idea, since 4" of snow has Frank sittin on his dead *** anyways.

 
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Franks is out. Rough guestimate is he still had 3/4 of his travel to go (changing oil real often may have unseen benefits). An Idea Follows.
18-0873.jpg


In the XS650 Yammi, of which I had several, and built several motors for, a screw assembly tensioned a strong spring which acted against the plunger that pressed the chain guide for chain tension. The chain was correctly tensioned when you could see the right end of that plunger, which was exposed when a cap was removed, just barely moving in and out of the housing. In other words, some slack/no slack was the best. The spring would allow for this, while keeping it to a minimum. I notice that the FJR's allows no movement other than forward and against the guide, constantly tightening, but never slacking. Not sure about all this, but I'm thinking that rather than a solid tension against the guide, a stiff compression spring acting against it would be better, and allow for the tight/loose action that naturally occurs with a chain. Note, however, a XS650 cam is single, and acting on 2 cylinders, while the FJR's is a double, and working 4 cylinders worth of valves. :unsure:

I'm gonna work on an idea, since 4" of snow has Frank sittin on dead *** anyways.
I was thinking along the same line this morning. I think I will replace the spacer on the inside with a spring. That way the tensioner could be preloaded a bit but as you say it would allow the chain to move.

I don't have the snow so I am going for a ride.

 
Some thoughts after having played with my tensioner for a little bit.

1) Nothing to prevent one from manually adjusting chain tension. Pop the cap, give the screw a counterclockwise twist, set. If much movement is accomplished, anticipate a weak or broken spring-ride at your own risk until a new tensioner is sourced.

2) The spring does two things

a- advances the piston via a screw mechanism to take up slack in the chain

b- more importantly, keeps the adjuster from backing up, causing a loss in tension.

Doesn't really take a lot to keep the chain in line on this motor. Too much tension and the guides wear rapidly, as well as the chain. Remember, a little loose is better than too tight when it comes to chains. The spring in this unit does nothing for tension-it only works the screw turning mechanism. However, as the screw advances, less and less tension is applied to the screws twist, but I don't see this as a big deal-as long as it has enough to keep the guide in contact with the chain, all is good. When Howies spring broke, the mechanism could move in either direction, not only not advancing the tensioner to take up slack, but actually allowing it to back up-hence the catastrophic failure. In any case, I am ordering a new oe tensioner, as insurance is always cheaper than what the insurance covers. ;) I would suggest that a replacement every 50k schedule become S.O.P for any owner who abhors noisy, expensive surprises.

Oh, and a suggestion. When releasing the tension on the screw, (the counter-clockwise release motion) release in control-slowly and smoothly. Then give a slight twist counterclockwise to fully seat the guide. Do not release and let go, allowing the screw and thusly the spring to unwind and then snap stop. Sure pathway to fatigue and/or breakage.

 
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noisy, expensive surprises.
Rad, you DO have a talent for understatement. :)

I hereby grant you RadioHowie's "Euphemism of the Week" award.

Now that this thread has resurrected CCT issues, I bet someone in Yamaha Corporate Parts will be wondering why they're suddenly getting all these orders for CCTs for FJRs.

Oh, and a suggestion. When releasing the tension on the screw, (the counter-clockwise release motion) release in control-slowly and smoothly. Then give a slight twist counterclockwise to fully seat the guide. Do not release and let go, allowing the screw and thusly the spring to unwind and then snap stop. Sure pathway to fatigue and/or breakage.
Edit: Not only could a "snap stop" cause fatigue or breakage, it could conceivably cause the plunger to actively retract slightly due to rebound, IF the spring tension to prevent such rebound is marginal.

 
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noisy, expensive surprises.
Rad, you DO have a talent for understatement. :)

I hereby grant you RadioHowie's "Euphemism of the Week" award.
Yeah. Unfortunately, most of what has been learned about these bikes has been due to episodes like yours and Ion's, the Tick Chronicles comes to mind as a good comparison.

 
Just got time to read through everything RH and all I can say is "Man this all really SUCKS"! Even Ionbeam feels your pain. And it was painful as I saw Ionbeam's parts last spring after he fixed his. Not good. Hope you figure out a way to get yours back on the road. Keep your chin up, at least you supplied us with valuable information.

Tom

 
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