To ATGATT or Not to ATGATT?

[ionbeam]

The gear may not prevent you from becoming injurred, or killed, but I bet it sure raises the probability of survival and minimizes injuries. However, that sort of data don't really seam to exist. It would be a good study.

Interesting point. It makes me wonder: Aside from the helmet and possibly a back protector, isn't the rest of our gear just abrasion resistance?

I've got impact armor on most of the contact points -- shoulders, elbows, hips, knees; boots that protect the shin, ankle, arch and toes; as well as gloves that impact protect knuckles.

My V-Max let me test some of these impact points, abrasion was not an issue at <10 mph. In spite of my leather's impact armor and padding I had a broken left elbow and broken right wrist. My coat prevented left shoulder damage and tailbone damage. My left glove prevented hand impact injury and my left boot prevented impact damage to my ankle and toes. FWIW, my full coverage helmet had a broken chin bar, ripped all the vents off the front, ground the faceshield and ground the left side of the helmet. Yes, less than 10 mph. In front of almost 100 people in the cafe at work :uhoh: oster_oops: (No stunting involved, lots of water on big white painted arrows with imbedded tar snakes.)

My wife will only wear a white helmet. My light silver helmet is the first non-white helmet I've had in years.

 

[El Toro]

(No stunting involved, lots of water on big white painted arrows with imbedded tar snakes.)

This is what I thought of immediately. Anyone who rides a lot will have encountered situations where no matter how careful they were, there was some environmental condition that dramatically increased the probability of a crash.

My crashes were 35 and 40 years ago. I did have a helmet on (only because it was required by law). In the first crash, a low side slide in sand with the rear coming around, I ground through the denim in the first foot or two, and then ground down to the bone of my knee. That joint wasn't right for the next 5 years. In the second crash, I had the pleasure of a high side in a washboard hairpin that I'd entered way over a safe speed, and I totally tore up everything on the top side of the bike. I also hurt my wrist, broke my thumb, and put a big sharp dent in my helmet. Both of these crashes were, in part, due to my own carelessness. Both were consummated by road surface conditions that were unexpected.

I stopped whining about helmet laws after that. At 17 and 22 I was not mature enough to make a good choice, so I am a beneficiary of Big Brother's benevolant meddling. I am not going to be a hypocrite and argue that I would have rather had the freedom, even though in the pre-helmet bashed era, I would have been at the front of the chorus.

 

[Silver Penguin]

Who has a white helmet, though?

I do. With pale pink flames.

 

[keithaba]

The gear may not prevent you from becoming injurred, or killed, but I bet it sure raises the probability of survival and minimizes injuries. However, that sort of data don't really seam to exist. It would be a good study.

Interesting point. It makes me wonder: Aside from the helmet and possibly a back protector, isn't the rest of our gear just abrasion resistance?

I've got impact armor on most of the contact points -- shoulders, elbows, hips, knees; boots that protect the shin, ankle, arch and toes; as well as gloves that impact protect knuckles.

I'm sure that impact armor will save a sore knee, hip, elbow, ankle...... when you hit the ground. But if you hit a car at 50-60 mph, I'm not so sure that stuff is going to do much anyway. Still I'd rather have it on that not have it. But I don't plan on hitting any cars, I'm too good at lowsiding on my own!

 

[bikerskier]

other road users say they don't see motorcyclists -- the gear you wear can work toward changing that.

Indeed. Who has a white helmet, though?

i own a white helmet, a HJC AC-10. and a yellow XS1100. the main reason for the helmet color was to help eleviate the summer heat.

I am a big believer in the white helmet theory and my pillion also wears white. Have always subscribed to the "be visible" plan and over many years of riding have slowly bought into more protective gear and now ride covered up with decent gear.

And also because I don't want ODOT bringing me any damn roses!

 

[ShawnKing]

This prompted the following comments from him, which I thought I'd share with the group:


Somebody runs a red light and broadsides you…the risk of this occurring is the same no matter if you are on a motorcycle or in a car….
 
...are motorcyclist at any more risk of a crash than a car driver?????

Yes - we've all heard the stories of riders getting hit because the car driver "didn't see the bike". Also, bikes are inherently more unstable in many situations than a car is (there's a reason why the vast majority of single person/single bike crashes occurs on a curve - not true of cars).

 

[SilveradoSlick]

We're at increased risk relative to a car due to invisibility and instability (the natural at-rest position for a motorcycle is on its side). A patch of oil or gravel on a curve at night can easily put you down. Losing traction by braking too hard or cornering to fast can put you down. Losing traction in a corner, over-compensating, and high-siding will put you down hard. These risks can be mitigated by riding skills, riding aware, and riding alert, but they can't be eliminated. The increased exposure can be mitigated by gear, but we'll always be far more vulnerable than a cage.

 

[Scab]

A lot of references are being made to motorcycle accidents that occur because an automobile driver stated that they "Did not see the motorcycle." I think this is misleading. It is not that the bike was briefly invisible by some choice or inaction of the rider and the rider can choose to ride in "visible" mode, but that the driver of the automobile was not applying proper attention to the task of looking. "Look" is a verb. It requires action. Sure, we can be of assistance to those that actually do participate in the action of looking, but there will always be those that are lazy about engaging the activity.

Thus, another argument for gear. The attention of fellow traffic is a risk that I can only influence to a very limited degree and therefore wear gear to help stack my personal odds of survival while I play this game of chance called 'riding.'

Philosophically speaking, it is all a numbers game. Because humans are involved, in everything from operation to substrate preparation, then human error can never be eliminated. Since human error cannot be eliminated, there will be crashes. It is seriously not a question of 'if' but of 'when.' This is not to say that you cannot die of old age before the human error statistic touches you, but that's not how successful gamblers play the game.

 

[RenoJohn]

you don't know how much **** I really don't care anymore. Ride nekkid, be happy if you want.

I'm with ya Timmerest.

Seems people like to make having fun on moto-bikes so very complicated with theory, philosophical points and long keyboard jockeying with 10dollar words.

Me thinks that the ones who enjoy this great sport/hobby the most:

The ones that go ride, and have fun. Simple as that. Wear what you want ride how you want and you won't hear me tell you otherwise via threats, insults or keyboard dialogue full of philosophical mantra.

My experience has taught me that the guys with a propensity to tell others what to wear and how to ride are the same guys who fall down more than the rest of us. "Us" being the guys who just go have fun and ride nekkid when the mood fits. Having fun on moto-bikes need not be oh-so-complicated.

Or, better said: "you don't know how much **** I really don't care anymore. Ride nekkid, be happy if you want"

...renojohn

 

[Dave in NJ]

You can get all philisophical about this and beat it to death. I always thought that gear or no gear was a personal choice that every person has to make for themselves. I still think that's the case.

But personal experience changed what I chose for myself.

I'm a cautious rider, take the Experienced Rider Safety course every couple of years and rode a lot of years without the gear, never had a problem.

Couple of years ago I bought the armored pants and jacket. Well it was a little warm with all that on in the summer (even though it's vented) so I only really wore the stuff when it was cold. Otherwise it was jeans, tee, gloves and helmet.

One cold day last year I had a low side on a VTX 1300. Hit the ground hard on my side and slid for 15 feet - 2 broken ribs but not a scratch otherwise. If I hadn't been wearing the armored jacket, pants and gloves (I was only wearing it because of the cold) I'd still be picking scabs.

Thought about how it would have been if I'd been wearing my summer gear - broken ribs would have been the least of my problems.

I keep the jacket with the torn shoulder and sleeve and scraped armor hangin right next to the bikes to remind me to wear the good stuff that I went out and bought to replace it.

**** happens no matter how prepared you are and since I'd rather spend my time riding and living than healing, it's ATGATT for me.

Live and learn.

 

[Scab]

I'd still be picking scabs.

Careful, you'll draw back a nub.

 

[Tenchi]

Who has a white helmet, though?

I want to get one with an airbrushed Australian flag on it

It is risk mitigation, but do enough miles and you're going to get into an accident eventually. There's the obvious problem associated with hitting the tarmac in less than great gear (tank top, shorts, etc.) - losing skin is painful. But how about the secondary one that most people forget - losing fluids from abrasions/burns? I spent a lot of time around the nurses in Perth ( ), and a few came out with tales of getting to the guy in time to save his life, not necessarily skin grafts required but the patient was brain damaged from loss of blood due to abrasion injuries.

On my bicycle where I don't wear protective gear apart from a helmet I've been left on crutches from torn ligaments, severe abrasions, knocked unconscious (wearing this helmet at the time), and dislocated my knee and shoulder - added up it's about 9 months of recovery and time off the bike right there. Most but not all of these were because due care was not exercised, but at the same time I'm sure I would have been injured less if I had appropriate gear on. I don't think I'd be here without my helmet, for starters, both on the pushie and the motorcycle, regardless of who's fault it was or if it was preventable.

I won't say anything if someone chooses to go "naked" on a ride. That's their choice, not mine. It's also my choice not to ride with anyone like that; I never want to have to say sayonara to a mate because they didn't wear gear that could have otherwise saved them.

 

[uctofeej]

Seems people like to make having fun on moto-bikes so very complicated with theory, philosophical points and long keyboard jockeying with 10dollar words.

Yep, that's why I gave up shoes with strings. Too much thought required to properly tie them. Now I just use slip-ons. Heck, even my ridin' boots have velcro.

 

[sonicspeed]

ucto you need to ride with a mosquito net too( besides all your other gear)

i got ate up the other day just north of shreveport when we stopped just long enough to heed the call of nature

 

[uctofeej]

ucto you need to ride with a mosquito net too( besides all your other gear) i got ate up the other day just north of shreveport when we stopped just long enough to heed the call of nature

Skin-so-Soft, dude! Keeps 'em away and ya smell purdy, too.

 

[sonicspeed]

ucto you need to ride with a mosquito net too( besides all your other gear) i got ate up the other day just north of shreveport when we stopped just long enough to heed the call of nature

Skin-so-Soft, dude! Keeps 'em away and ya smell purdy, too.

BULLSH$T

my wife was an avon lady for years and i wore skin so soft a lot. i still got ate up by the pesky little buggers.

but i always smelled real pretty

 

[cougar8000]

Think about this for a moment. MSF talks about the ladder of risk. They talk about how safety clothes reduces your risk on this ladder. But what risk are they really talking about….. to me it is the implied risk is crashing. But, safety clothes has nothing to do with crashing, it has to do with injuries if you crash…..

This bothers the heck out of me hearing it coming from one of the instructors.

It is not only to protect you during the crash. One wears ATGATT to protect from the elements. Ask him if he was ever hit by a june bug directly in the face at 60mph? Ask him if he ever took a rock in the leg at the highway speed? If he ever took a hit in the hand? That is basically what say during my classes.

Any of those are extremely painful if one does not have a right gear on. and could potentially cause a crash. Last week on the ride I was hit by a small bug in the neck, the only part not covered on my body by the armor. The sucker went over the shield, stock in the low position just the way I like it, and under the full face at the 60+. It was not a picnic. I lost my concentration for a bit.

So, yes, I wear ATGATT to protect my hide regardless I get in the crash or not.

I consider my self a very safe rider and question ATGATT sometime, but then I remember what the consequences of not ATGATT might be and put it on.

And to finish this up. tell your friend to reread the MSF book. Here is what it says about safety gear:

**************************************************************************************

Protective gear has several purposes, including providing comfort, increasing visibility, and offering protection. Motorcycle protective gear helps you stay comfortable and provides improved visibility if it is brightly colored and reflective. Also, protective gear can provide protection against the elements in all kinds of riding conditions and, in the event of a crash, it may prevent or reduce injuries.

Any motorcyclist who has been hit by a stone or an insect while riding can tell you about the benefits of face protection.

Wind, insects, dust, and pebbles will be blown behind a windscreen.

Sturdy over-the-ankle boots help protect riders from a variety of riding hazards, such as stones that get thrown up from the roadway. They also prevent burns from hot exhaust pipes. Rubber-soled boots with low heels provide a strong grip on the pavement and help keep feet on the footrests.

Gloves that fit snugly will improve grip on the handlebars as well as help reduce hand fatigue. ... Gloves made specifically for motorcyclists have seams on the outside to prevent irritation, and are curved to provide a natural grip when curled around the handgrips.

Quality motorcycle protective gear will provide comfort in all conditions, and it can help you avoid being distracted by adverse environmental elements.

The protective gear worn while riding can also help a rider be more visible.

***********************************************************

I think I can stop here.

By preventing you from the elements safety gear allows you to concentrate on the road and in turn minimizes your risk of getting involved in a crash.

 

[James Burleigh]

you don't know how much **** I really don't care anymore. Ride nekkid, be happy if you want.

I'm with ya Timmerest.

Seems people like to make having fun on moto-bikes so very complicated with theory, philosophical points and long keyboard jockeying with 10dollar words.

Me thinks that the ones who enjoy this great sport/hobby the most:

The ones that go ride, and have fun. Simple as that. Wear what you want ride how you want and you won't hear me tell you otherwise via threats, insults or keyboard dialogue full of philosophical mantra.

My experience has taught me that the guys with a propensity to tell others what to wear and how to ride are the same guys who fall down more than the rest of us. "Us" being the guys who just go have fun and ride nekkid when the mood fits. Having fun on moto-bikes need not be oh-so-complicated.

Or, better said: "you don't know how much **** I really don't care anymore. Ride nekkid, be happy if you want"

...renojohn

Hi, guys. Interesting comments. I admit to personally believing that the unexamined life is not worth living. Philosophers historically observed that people are uniquely made up of "mind" and "body," and that that’s what separates us from animals and other lower life forms (like Harley riders )—i.e., having thinking, reflecting minds. Animals just do stuff without thinking (reflecting) on what they do.

So philosophers argue that as intelligent human beings (not meaning "smart," but having reasoning powers) we think about stuff. I buy into this point of view. And the more passionate we are about the stuff we do, the more we think about it. It's natural. It's what being human means.

I believe that if we don't think about what we do, then we're just experiencing it, and if we're just experiencing stuff, then we're guilty IMHO of spending our lives (killing time) and not living our lives. Oh, and then there’s the fact that it’s just plain fun to discuss and debate stuff we care about.

I know people get tired of going over the same debates because nothing gets resolved, and so they opt out (sometimes with a comment thrown over the shoulder that it’s all a stupid waste of time. That's fine, and that's exactly why I elected not to go on and get a higher degree in philosophy--a big waste of time).

But here I am violating the “don’t over-analyze it; just do it” alternate point of view. So I’m guessing this post lost credibility right after "Hi, guys…."

Jb

 

[twistedcricket]

And to finish this up. tell your friend to reread the MSF book. Here is what it says about safety gear:**************************************************************************************

Protective gear has several purposes, including providing comfort, increasing visibility, and offering protection. Motorcycle protective gear helps you stay comfortable and provides improved visibility if it is brightly colored and reflective. Also, protective gear can provide protection against the elements in all kinds of riding conditions and, in the event of a crash, it may prevent or reduce injuries.

By preventing you from the elements safety gear allows you to concentrate on the road and in turn minimizes your risk of getting involved in a crash.

GUNNY! The protection from the elements is my #1 reason for wearing the gear. Also, if it rains and you're in a tshirt/jeans/shoes, you get coooold in a hurry and that saps some energy out of you (shivering, thinking "damn rain" etc etc) Out in the plains of the midwest there's minimal wind protection so anything that is kicked up can fly at you (dirt, shopping bags, small dogs and their owners screaming "Auntie Em, Auntie Em!")

The visibility is, as Scab said, an action. I don't expect my gear to jump out at anyone bringing attention to me. I have the reflective bag decals from Alex and supplemental LED brake lights. I think I'll be seen from the rear. Most all of my gear is black, because A) It was on clearance and I'm cheap and 2) I have a reflective vest that I'll wear when I change my face shield from tinted to non-tinted. My main concern is an impact from the side at an intersection at night. There aren't a lot of surfaces that reflect on the side. I have Alex's decals (sorry, another plug for the guy) and I know some people have put reflective tape on their helmets, but short of adding those other decals, what options are there?

I'm driving between Iowa City and Omaha on the weekends (long story, no details) and I've lost count of the number of riders on I-80. Most are wearing black and/or dark with no reflective material. Are they more or less visible than the black chevy cavalier or similar small car? I notice lights first, especially headlights obviously, or any reflective material that shines a lighter color. None of the riders I've encountered have anything similar to Alex's reflective decals so I'm left to concentrate on small, red, distant tail-lights. When it's dark and I see a taillight my first thought is that the other taillight is busted and that it's a car. Unless that rider is in the middle of the lane of course.

This is gonna get moved to PROTs soon

 

[HuskyRider]

We're leaving right now with only helmets and jeans..

ATGATT=

I ride safe and at legal speed limits..peace