To lean or counter-lean, that is the question...

[torch]

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outraged youtubers,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them?

(with my apologies to the Bard)

Ok, so I fell down a youtube rabbit hole the other day and stumbled upon a helmet cam video posted by some smug squid following an unknown rider through Deal's Gap or similar. The rider ahead was clearly counter-leaning; the squid was deriding him and seemed to think the rider ahead was just trying to artificially narrow his chicken strips for bragging rights. I soon clicked away from this know-it-all's useless commentary.

But like many other minor irritants, this one lingered and festered and became something to think about while on a long ride.

When I was young and taking the motorcycle test for the first time, one of the multiple-choice exam questions dealt with rider's lean angle, with the possible answers including "lean less than the angle of the motorcycle", "Lean at the same angle as the motorcycle" and "lean more than the angle of the motorcycle". The government approved answer was B -- same angle.

Years and experience taught me that the government is not always right.

For sheer fun and harmony and G force, I love leaning with the bike, way down until the pegs start folding. To squeeze that little bit of extra speed on the track, one can even hang off, drag a knee etc. But to be realistic, pushing the limits of cornering speed on public roads reduces one's options if something unexpected crops up. So I tend to save that for curves I am completely familiar with and have excellent sight-lines.

On unfamiliar roads, or at times of reduced visibility, or in areas frequented by large wildlife, etc. I like to leave myself a margin for error. And that can include keeping a more upright position relative to the bike -- ie: counter-leaning.

As much as it pains me to admit it, the squid had one thing right: physics dictate the bike is leaning a few degrees further for a given speed in a given curve. Which at first blush would seem to narrow the margin for error, but consider the following:
1. I'm not cornering at track speeds in those conditions. There's lots of space between the tarmac and the hard bits.
2. I have better sight lines when upright. Leaned over, much of my peripheral vision is sky or ground as my neck cranks up to look where I'm going. Upright, I'm more likely to spot that deer headed into the road from the outside of the curve.
3. The bike (particularly a big heavy bike) is more responsive to course corrections mid-curve. Again: physics. It's all about levering the weight around in a hurry when said deer jumps out in front of me.

What are your thoughts: does counter-steering have a place in your tool chest, or should it be damned as a cheat for the meek?

 

[Oldjeep]

For me - head/body typically same angle or more angle than bike when riding quickly. Depends on the bike - the FJR is a lot harder for me to really hang off of than my other bikes. Counter steer (which is not counter lean) for me is usually a butt saving maneuver.
I've also heard the argument for counter-leaning in the twisties is to keep your head from crossing the line or getting too close to objects. Fine in an emergency, but if you are riding in such a way that you would regularly be putting your body across the line - you are not properly in your lane.

 

[tschutter]

I defer to my brother - ya I could state all of his qualifications but I doubt you'd be impressed. His answer is to remain upright through the turn for the precise reason you already mentioned, visibility. Being able to see is critical. And a small comment about physics - Which elements of the lean are causing the lean. Counter Steering or my Weight (or lean)? I'm pretty set on the first. So if I lean, it might have some effect but the angle of the bike is determined by my input into the counter steering. Reminds me of a book I read of the Wright brothers - arguing about what makes an airplane tip to the right or left. They were dreaming up mechanisms that would put the pilot on the left or right wing during flight to get the craft to tilt in the desired direction. THAT didn't work. Rather the shape of the air foil (wing) determined how much lift it created. If the right wing gave greater lift, then it would go up causing a turn to the left. All that to say, the predominant force here is steering, not weight distribution.

 

[RossKean]

Posted before, but relevant.

 

[Oldjeep]

Posted before, but relevant.

Yeah, I've seen that and to be honest that is the habit that it took years for me to break.

I'm a downhill ski racer - angulation (counter lean) is key due to how skis bite the snow, the fact that you are trying to turn close to gates and that you have almost unlimited angle available (until your boot buckles hit the snow). Now on the skis you have the ability to stick your *** mass towards the inside of the turn - doing that on a bike is a little trickier.

On a bike, I have a very limited angle before hardparts start hitting the road. If my mass is on the inside of the turn it requires a lot less angle and a lot less hard parts dragging to make that turn. With your body mass going the wrong way, it requires more bike angle - if you have it.

In this picture, the ski on the left (right ski/outside ski) is basically the tire of the bike.

 

[Sunnyorlando]

Yeah, I've seen that and to be honest that is the habit that it took years for me to break.

I'm a downhill ski racer - angulation (counter lean) is key due to how skis bite the snow, the fact that you are trying to turn close to gates and that you have almost unlimited angle available (until your boot buckles hit the snow). Now on the skis you have the ability to stick your *** mass towards the inside of the turn - doing that on a bike is a little trickier.

On a bike, I have a very limited angle before hardparts start hitting the road. If my mass is on the inside of the turn it requires a lot less angle and a lot less hard parts dragging to make that turn. With your body mass going the wrong way, it requires more bike angle - if you have it.

In this picture, the ski on the left (right ski/outside ski) is basically the tire of the bike.

View attachment 5505

I relate to the skiing analogy, and I agree. Similarly, having started on dirt bikes when young gives me a rounded skillset that at times helps, and others not. Little habits that don't work on a street bikes so we'll need to be worked on and put aside when moving from dirt to pavement.
So for me it's a blend of skills. For most of my riding today, unless we are having some of 'spirited semi-competitive road pushing to the limit day' , I'm in for counter steering and leaning with the bike.

 

[Bounce]

I find that "body english" on the bike is a slow-speed and off-road tactic that is "put away" when at higher speeds on the road... that's when counter steering shines and body english doesn't have enough influence over the moving mass to create quick responses.

 

[MotoMike]

Here is yet another take on the "which way should you lean" question, again by RyanF9:

 

[torch]

Damn that course looks like fun!

 

[VAcracker]

Not sure there is a fully correct answer for everyone and every situation

Things that I feel come into play universally are speed and turn radius. These will dictate the requirement facts regardless.

Keep in mind Lean angle equals risk period. The main determining factor for a given radius is speed. If you’re going fast reducing lean angle with body position is probably the safest way through. By no means does this require chin to handle bar and knee to ground. It could be anything between tilting hips to shifting your butt some and dipping a shoulder at reasonable street speeds . Even spirited riding on public roads should never require a GP racer pose.

Going slow the lean angle will likely require more speed than most expect along with counter weight/lean with your body.

Just my opinion in non novel mode.

 

[VAcracker]

Yeah, I've seen that and to be honest that is the habit that it took years for me to break.

I'm a downhill ski racer - angulation (counter lean) is key due to how skis bite the snow, the fact that you are trying to turn close to gates and that you have almost unlimited angle available (until your boot buckles hit the snow). Now on the skis you have the ability to stick your *** mass towards the inside of the turn - doing that on a bike is a little trickier.

On a bike, I have a very limited angle before hardparts start hitting the road. If my mass is on the inside of the turn it requires a lot less angle and a lot less hard parts dragging to make that turn. With your body mass going the wrong way, it requires more bike angle - if you have it.

In this picture, the ski on the left (right ski/outside ski) is basically the tire of the bike.

View attachment 5505

Might seem off to some but that skier analogy and picture provides a great visual on how moving weight inside reduces required lean angle.

 

[user 90243]

Yeah, I've seen that and to be honest that is the habit that it took years for me to break.

I'm a downhill ski racer - angulation (counter lean) is key due to how skis bite the snow, the fact that you are trying to turn close to gates and that you have almost unlimited angle available (until your boot buckles hit the snow). Now on the skis you have the ability to stick your *** mass towards the inside of the turn - doing that on a bike is a little trickier.

On a bike, I have a very limited angle before hardparts start hitting the road. If my mass is on the inside of the turn it requires a lot less angle and a lot less hard parts dragging to make that turn. With your body mass going the wrong way, it requires more bike angle - if you have it.

In this picture, the ski on the left (right ski/outside ski) is basically the tire of the bike.

View attachment 5505

One of my best friends, an accomplished roadracer, taught me the skiing connection. Also, he said, keep your head vertical, do not lean it as you do your body. This tip gave me a very good visual all through the turns; left-right, up-down. Sand, deer, car wreck you can't yet see, all, the sooner the better.

 

[Dale_I]

Another point of consideration in street cornering is the imperfections you will run into. It is not uncommon to have elevation changes, pot holes, patches, tar snakes, etc, etc. Under the "Lean angle equals risk" category, your suspension will work better the more erect the bike is. You don't need to fully lean off or even move your fanny if you don't want to. Just moving your upper body off center line will allow the bike to stand up a bit more.

Separate is the counter-steer. I tend to shift my upper body off center line into the corner (lean) and weight the inside peg, then use counter steer to make corrections. This gives counter steer the ability to increase lean angle without dragging hard parts.

Slow speed... counter weight is king. At speed, lean and weight to the inside. (YMMV)

 

[Bounce]

Not sure there is a fully correct answer for everyone and every situation

Things that I feel come into play universally are speed and turn radius. These will dictate the requirement facts regardless.

Keep in mind Lean angle equals risk period. The main determining factor for a given radius is speed. If you’re going fast reducing lean angle with body position is probably the safest way through. By no means does this require chin to handle bar and knee to ground. It could be anything between tilting hips to shifting your butt some and dipping a shoulder at reasonable street speeds . Even spirited riding on public roads should never require a GP racer pose.

Going slow the lean angle will likely require more speed than most expect along with counter weight/lean with your body.

Just my opinion in non novel mode.

Right. I didn't think of leaning as a tool to keep the bike more upright. I was thinking of it when compared to initiating the turn. You are absolutely right about that.

I had to learn the hard way and was using all those slow-speed skills when starting to up the pace on my Wing(s). Ended up driving hard bits into the pavement during a decreasing radius turn. All the counter steering couldn't fix that. A completely different thing in my mind though.

Initiating a turn: body English at slow speeds and off road. good for parking lot practices. counter steering for as speeds increase to overcome inertia and the gyroscopic effects of the wheels at speed.

During the turn: Getting a shoulder into the inside of the turn (and more of your body mass as speeds increase even more) is less about the turn as it is about how to keep the bike more upright as speeds increase (to avoid the whole hard bits eating pavement problem).

I don't know if anyone else in the world "chunks" the data away in their head like this, but se la vie. It's worked for me and actually marries the 2 into a unified theory.

As to imperfections and riding on public roads: That's why you never ride at 10/10ths.

 

[JQL]

Having ridden motorcycles for a living on the streets of London and for pleasure elsewhere, there are two very distinct types of riding. Although there is some crossover between the two, they are not the same as you have very different "challenges" between the track and the road.

Some of those "challenges" have been discussed above. But, to reiterate, the road has road furniture, bad surfaces, restricted vision, two way traffic, distracted drivers, phone zombies, animals, debris, speed limits and the like. The track is the opposite (mostly) and, most importantly, all the traffic is going in the same direction with people knowing (usually) what they are doing.

Remember also, that the bike set up for the track (including the Manx TT and Superbike World Championship) is a very different animal to the road going variant. Don't believe me? Get on an S1000RR then get on an S1000RR set up for racing - they are not even close to being the same.

Ride like Rossi on the track. Ride like the Police on the road, as alluded to by MotoMike above and watch the video he posted above if you haven't already done so for some of the reasons why.

 

[feejerbkb]

Many years ago I took the Motorcycle Safety Foundation Beginners course because a police officer recommended I do so while we were chatting on the side of the road. It was either that or a receive an expensive performance award. I learned about the counter steer/lean with the bike method. Want to turn sharper? Counter steer harder. Unfortunately, when using the 'counter steer harder to turn sharper at speed' method, you tie yourself and the bike up in knots. Prior to 2020 I thought that was normal. I mean, a Sport Touring bike like a Concours or FJR is a big heavy beast and so you just have to fight with them to go fast in the corners, right? Wrong.

So in 2020 I took the 2 day riding course from the Yamaha Champions Riding School and learned some things. They teach hanging a full cheek off the bike so that you are looking through the corners to the inside of the mirrors, leaning far forward with the outside elbow straight, inside elbow tightly folded, inside knee out and inside foot up on the ball. All this is combined with trail braking to the apex and tilting your head away from the pavement. Why do these things? Because the guys who win races are doing it and the bike is designed to work best when ridden in that fashion.

What I experienced was the bike stayed more upright for a given speed through a corner, the steering became amazingly light and mid-corner, I was easily able to change the line. I also came to understand why motorcycle racers are called athletes. I used to think these racer guys just had steel ****** and quick minds. Oh no, you have to be in very good physical shape to ride like that. I was panting like I had been sprinting, fogging up my visor (cool mornings) and my legs felt like jello after a couple of laps. I was the slowest/oldest guy in the class but I was barely faster than one or two of the girls so my ego stayed intact.

So how does hanging off the bike in corners translate into commuting to work on a motorcycle? Basically not at all. JQL is a wise man when he says save the Rossi aspirations for a race track. In the aftermath of the course I began to wonder just how thin a safety margin I was riding on with the old 'counter steer harder' method. I also realized I just don't want to work that hard to ride a motorcycle and since it's just not worth the risk to ride fast in an unsafe manner, made a conscious decision to slow down on the public roads. I'm glad I went through the YCRS course and I do use their techniques when I want to push a little bit but I'm not nearly as aggressive as I used to be. Must be getting old.......+

I would take minor issue with the #3 assertion of the OP by saying the hanging off method taught by YCRS makes the bike much more manuverable in a corner. That being said, I still counter steer all the time, but again, just not as aggressive as in the past.

 

[Bounce]

All of that is what I consider techniques to keep the bike more upright DURING a turn. As you move your mass inside the turn, the bike itself needs to lean less, so can go faster through a corner with less risk of touching hard bits.

Initiating a turn is still body English vs mass or counter steering (with the caveat that even just getting yourself into the inside of the turn causes inputs into the steering and is actually counter steering as part of the process).

And I agree with everyone else that 8/10ths is as much as I'll do on public roads and even then only on routes that I've recently done (usually on the way back after a first run).

 

[Whooshka]

I've been saying for a while that guys bragging on dragging their pegs have a lot of room for improvement of their riding technique.

 

[HilltownDave]

I’ve said before: I like my chicken strips nice and meaty. Keeps my bones inside my body (as per my wife’s request).

 

[an-guy]

I have to agree with VAcracker, lean = risk. Other than that, it's determined by speed. I have drastically more low speed control via countersteering. At "spirited" paces, I hang off the bike to reduce lean to be able to corner quicker. Fortnine is one of my favorite YouTubers, and he's top of the game for motorcycle content. But, I don't agree at all with his reasoning as to why you should countersteer while riding fast. Leaning off the bike into the turn just works excellently and I have no idea why I would lean the bike significantly further over for.....not much benefit. Slightly better sight? And forget trying this in the rain. Curiously, F9 has actually advised doing the exact opposite (overexaggerating body lean to minimize bike lean) in the rain. Shouldn't we just be doing this anyways in case of oil/gravel/dirt/debris...? I'm not sure how he thinks leaning the bike further makes it safer traction wise.

And while we're at it, how about that video where he said we should hold our throttle differently? Anyone else actually try that? I found it basically impossible to then also reach my front brake and have decent control. Doesn't like, every motorcycle safety video and course you see instruct you keeping one-two fingers on the front brake level at all times is the ideal practice?

I still love F9. But I do take his "motorcycle riders- you're doing this wrong!" videos with a dump truck's worth of salt.