Torque loss after service.

[Geezer]

One way to verify that you do indeed have a torque loss is for you and another FJR owner to get together and compare.

 

[ionbeam]

One way to save this one Jim, is to take the time yourself to pull covers and document the timing. If you do find it off, then take pics and go back to the dealer with the evidence and give them the opportunity to make it right...

...Upon studying the manual, I think it's easy enough to mis-interpret the instructions/drawings that it's going to be hard to really blame them for getting it wrong. That oblique view of the cam timing marks (5-17) is, I think, the culprit...

Here in the Forum we have documented several ways to inspect the cam alignment including using rulers and the angle of the pips in the cam shaft and there are hints about using mirrors to better see the cam alignment marks. The crank sprocket timing is pretty straight forward. If the dealer allowed some cam chain slack to form at the front of the engine it would contribute to getting the cam timing off by just a little bit.

 

[FJReady]

My money is on the cam chain jumping a tooth. I had that exact thing happen on my 05 during a valve check & CCT change out.. Guy doing the work agreed that it seemed down on power and fixed it the next day. As others have said its easy to do if you don't take specific precautions to prevent it.

That was at the 60K mile service. Bike now has almost 120K on it and runs great.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Just a caution on using the pip/oil hole thing, it is easy to think you're OK and not be, if you don't look straight down on the engine (it is angled in the frame). I always advise using the cam sprocket marks as the primary datum, it's hard to be wrong using those. I may be too used to knowing what I'm looking for but I don't find looking at them all that difficult. Your starting point is TDC #1 compression stroke. A nice strong flashlight and you can gunsight those marks fairly easily. Verify by rotating the engine 360 and since the cams turn 1/2 speed, rotate another 360 and you'll be back at TDC #1 compression stroke. See FSM for timing markings.

 

[Warpdrv]

I will add, didn't actually read each response - but I have seen first hand, power loss after a TBS. I did it on my own 05, and then did it on my good friends 04 the same day. He took it out and complained about way less power..... I took it out for a ride to check for myself, and it felt way under powered... no question...

We then re-did the TBS on his 04, and it cured the problem....

That very well could be the issue here... Just want to add validity to the possibility that it may be the TBS...

Good luck on your fix - the 05 was bulletproof for me....

 

[Hotboot]

Good info gentlemen, thanks a bunch.

 

[Intech]

Just a caution on using the pip/oil hole thing, it is easy to think you're OK and not be, if you don't look straight down on the engine (it is angled in the frame). I always advise using the cam sprocket marks as the primary datum, it's hard to be wrong using those. I may be too used to knowing what I'm looking for but I don't find looking at them all that difficult. Your starting point is TDC #1 compression stroke. A nice strong flashlight and you can gunsight those marks fairly easily. Verify by rotating the engine 360 and since the cams turn 1/2 speed, rotate another 360 and you'll be back at TDC #1 compression stroke. See FSM for timing markings.

I agree with Ray here. The marks are pretty easy to read if you know what you are looking at. The FSM clearly shows what is what with the timing marks. I became very familiar with them on LCB's bike as I got things out of timing after making a shim adjustment during a clearance check. It should be the first and last thing you check when doing a valve clearance check.

 

[blassoff]

+1 on timing. I did a valve check and cct change on my 05. All went to plan and she idled and ran fine with a distinct lack of power at roll-on.

Since a couple of valve were outta spec, I took it to a local shop, had them replace two shims and button her back up.

They caught my boo boo on the timing chain and she was right as rain ever since. (I refused to pull the cams as I would have likely grenaded the engine).

Dollars to doughnuts, it's off a tooth.

 

[Fred W]

Just so that we are all on the same page here, there are two ways the valve timing can be off, and they would each have somewhat different symptoms.

The majority of timing errors occur where the chain skips a tooth on the bottom crank sprocket and that causes the valve timing to be retarded from the crank position. This is what happens on its own when you remove the CCT without securing the chain tension and allow the chain to go slack. Retarded timing would result in an engine that idles well and runs OK at low rpm but loses some giddy up when the rpm increase.

When you actually have the cams out or the chain off it's possible to mistime the engine to be too far advanced either at the crank or at one (or both) of the cam sprockets. Advanced timing will cause the engine to not idle smoothly (if at all) and to run poorly at low to mid rpms, possibly clearing up some when you get the revs up high enough depending on how much it's off.

 

[audiowize]

If you can ride it over the mountains, you're welcome to pull your bike apart in my garage and we can check the timing. Before you do this, you'll need a couple of O-rings and a gasket for the timing cover.

 

[dcarver]

If you can ride it over the mountains, you're welcome to pull your bike apart in my garage and we can check the timing. Before you do this, you'll need a couple of O-rings and a gasket for the timing cover.

There is an awesome opportunity for you.

Don't be a doofus and decline this invite..

JSNS.

 

[fjrwalker]

Thank you! That's a tempting offer and I may take you up on it if we can find a mutually agreeable time.

I'm a pretty good wrench, but it's nice to have some experienced eyes when tackling a job like this.

Will be in touch!

 

[harper]

Thank you! That's a tempting offer and I may take you up on it if we can find a mutually agreeable time.

That's an offer you can't (or at least shouldn't) refuse. audiowize is incredibly skilled, knowledgeable, and helpful.

 

[Niehart]

Our we taking about the same fellow?

Audiowise????

Oh alright, as us ex Montana folks would say, Paul diffently has his shit together. Offer is too good to pass up unless the Yamaha shop steps back to the plate.

 

[David Morrow]

On my last valve adjustment, when I rode off the lot there was a definite power loss coming off idle; above that it was fine. I took it back to the dealer and of course they said everything was fine. I ended up taking it to another dealer who found the cams were both advanced one tooth past where they were supposed to be. I talked to the mechanic at the second dealer who showed me one of his reference books that addressed the issue. Advanced cams give a low RPM power loss. Retarded cams result in a higher RPM power loss. He also explained how easy it is to screw up any procedure requiring getting the cams and crank properly timed. In one of his Yamaha courses IIRC, about 60-70% of the class got the cams timed incorrectly. If you haven't sorted this out yet, your biggest problem will be convincing the dealer to take it apart again - assuming you have enough faith in them to give them the bike at this point. I was lucky in the sense that I had the second dealer document what they did and what they found and made a settlement with the first dealer. One final thought - is it possible that just one cam is mis-timed ?

 

[Biquer]

I had a dealer swap a CCT and the bike wouldn't idle. I suspected the cam chain had skipped a tooth. I took it back and their 'chief tech' had a look at it and pronounced that he checked with the holes and pips and it 'looked spot on to me'. I asked him if he had checked the timing marks on the cam wheels and he said 'no'. I used an inspection mirror and a steel ruler and both cams were 1 tooth off. I fixed it and it has been perfect since. This is the shortened version, the reality was that I had a lot of hassle troubleshooting everything else until I got to this point.

 

[audiowize]

It looks like we are going to get together in the next couple of weeks before the Reuben Run to sort this out. The usual suspects are welcome to come by and point at things while we work.

-PB

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I agree with everyone's posts re one tooth off..

With that said, my old 04 Goldwing had the alternator bearing go south requiring the engine to be pulled.

When I pick the bike up, it had a good engine oil leak besides many other parts not installed, drive boot not on, locking nut for the engine mount, etc.

It was returned and told to fix it... They did not address the oil leak (which wasn't there before).

I called Honda, they basically said if the dealer screwed up, I have to chase them around(small claims court, etc, which I wasn't going to do.

I brought the bike to Sarasota, (1.5 hours away), told them the story and to fix it (and get as deep into the bike as the other dealer did to check their work). They did call Honda, got jerked around, that's fine, I'll pay for it. Then I'll sue HONDA corp and the local dealer.

Its says "HONDA" on the sign outside the building. I can't interview the mechanic's nor know who's actually working on it.

The SW USA rep for Honda, made sure he was in Sarasota when the dealership found the main issue(among some other small pinched 0-rings, etc)..

Anyway, Honda picked up the entire tab at the second dealership...

(the initial repair was under warranty)

Just a thought / option should you not get anyone who knows what their doing(like that shop)..

BTW, the oil leak was from the clutch cover(on the REAR of the engine), severely gouged when someone removed the gasket.(engine removal again, NOT needed). And that was the LAST HONDA I ever own...

 

[audiowize]

I suppose we can take some photos of the cam timing that we find, and perhaps Jim can get a partial refund for the work performed.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I suppose we can take some photos of the cam timing that we find, and perhaps Jim can get a partial refund for the work performed.

At the VERY LEAST...

I'd get an estimate from another shop, to check and re-adjust the chain (IF NECESSARY) on paper,

Then, if its found to be off (with picture/video proof), present it to that "dealer".

Another option is to open a case with Yamaha, (as I did) and go about it the same way BUT WITH a

KNOWLEDGEABLE Yamaha mechanic..