TPS recalled and sent for repair...

[SPORT]

Ionbeam,

A big hardy thanks for your TPS write-up. I had stumbled accross this whilest searching for others who have experienced this problem. Though I think it is still the TPS, it was replaced less than 100 miles ago and the dealer wants to perform a host of other procedures (including me buying a new battery). I figure I can perform many of them on my own to rule out some of the casuses.

Moreover, those dreaded connectors under the T-bar (under the tank) is another consideration. I have had these connectors apart, cleaned and sealed three times now with no change in engine smoothness. After reading numerous posts regarding these connectors, it is virtually impossible to rule it out yet.

I brought the bike in due to TPS related issue, the TPS has been replaced and those issues still exist; albiet, not as severe.

I will attach a volt meter to the TPS and run it to see, like you did, if the TPS is failing.

Again, I appreciate your insights and experiences.

 

[SPORT]

OK,

So I get home, dress up in my mech outfit and work on the bike (after kids are fed). The first thing I do is check on the TPS as Ionbeam suggested. While on centerstand I tap into the TPS wire with a volt meter and check to see if its the right one...yup, I see voltage increase from .6 on up. So then I start the engine warm it up to 2 bars and throttle lock it at 3,000 RPM. The volt meter climbs to .8 and holds steady. I notice the engine is infrequently missing causing an unsmooth fluctuation of about 200 RPM. Then the bike climbs to 3,900 RPM and hold there for about 30 seconds (the volt meter still reads .8), then the RPM drops down to 2,500 (volt meter still reads .8) the back up to 3,000 RPM. this oscilates repeatedly regardless of temperature.

So then, I believe I can now rule out the TPS.

I checked all the plug wires to see if they are pressed on correctly. They are. I spray the wires and the rest of the hoses to check for arching or vacuum leak. No change.

I begin playing with the connector (located under the T-bar). No change in engine behavior.

I even checked the side stand switch. No change.

For this to have all of a sudden begin, I think it's logical to rule out the TBS (though I will do it in the tools come in).

So what am I left with? Time to call the dealer.

I did pull Diag. codes when thumb'n through the screens and came up with the following:

02 = 99

05 = 35

06 = 108

08 = 0.6

20 = on

20 = on

61 = 15

62 = 2

I'm gonna do a search for codes and see what I can find.

 

[SPORT]

Found THIS for fault code info.

If I'm reading this right, #62 indicates fault code #2, which implies I have an atmospheric clog/opening, the air pressure sensor is faulty, or the ECU is bad.

#61 indicates fault code #15 which implies an open or short in the TPS. Can anybody help me confirm this???

Edit:

Diag. #62 displays the number of errors detected. In this case, 2

Diag. #61 identifies, by number, what errors were detected. In this case, fault code 15 & 16.

This would indicate that the TPS is stuck (#16), and that there is either an open or a short within the TPS (#15)

 

[SPORT]

Here is a link from a fellow member with exactly the same symptoms I am currently having.

This only solidifies that my NEW TPS is not functioning properly. Ironically, the diagnostic and DMM test does not reveal the problem. Now to convince the dealer.

Should I clear the codes or leave them for the dealer?

 

[madmike2]

Leave them for the dealer.

There have been a couple of bad TPS installed and they were replaced, though I can't remember exactly who the owners were.

 

[PA1195]

Here is a link to a fellow member with exactly the same symptoms I am currently having. This only solidifies that my NEW TPS is not functioning properly. Ironically, the diagnostic and DMM test does not reveal the problem. Now to convince the dealer.

Should I clear the codes or leave them for the dealer?

Do you have access to a Service Manual? I assume so. The test procedures are spelled out there as you may already know.

Unless you are impatient, leave them for the Dealer. If you are impatient, clear the codes (kill switch off to on @ Code d:62) and see if they reappear with the problem. Hopefully the Dealer cleared any trouble codes after the first TPS replacement. Only they know at this point. I'd experiment, but the conservative choice would be to let the Dealer sweat it out.

In addition, it's possible that there is a bad connection between the TPS and the ECU plug. The Manual spells out an examination/continuity test for that as well. And, the TPS has to be properly set up at installation as described.

Gary in Fairbanks

PS: At this point I'm not sure of the reliability of the on-bike TPS self-diagnostic = some relative number increase paralleling throttle increase. Bad bikes often pass the visual test it appears. Maybe the ECU reads it quickly and generates a trouble code. The external VOM test appears to be the most reliable if temps change the internal resistance and voltage output. Strange your meter didn't catch it. It's just a variable resistor and any intermittent contact to wiper connection, or fault in the harness, could cause the ECU to get momentarily confused as to where the throttle position really is.

 

[SPORT]

Things completed:

1) Checked TPS in various ways to no avail

2) Filled with high octane gas fromanother station when it was empty

3) Checked spark plug wires and caps

4) Sprayed solution over wires and hoses

5) cleaned and re-sealed power connector under T-Bar

Things still to do:

1) Change battery (don't see a need to)

2) TBS (waiting on tools)

3) Take to stealer (slated for April 28th)

 

[PA1195]

Things completed:
1) Checked TPS in various ways to no avail

2) Filled with high octane gas fromanother station when it was empty

3) Checked spark plug wires and caps

4) Sprayed solution over wires and hoses

5) cleaned and re-sealed power connector under T-Bar

Things still to do:

1) Change battery (don't see a need to)

2) TBS (waiting on tools)

3) Take to stealer (slated for April 28th)

Did you try clearing the two trouble codes to see if they reappear? If they do, then it's likely the TPS or associated wiring. System voltage is critical >14VDC running, plus good battery contacts. Battery should stay >12.8VDC overnight after running, or after a good 15VDC two hour charge to equalize the cells. Could also be an ECU or other problem. A TBS will smooth at idle, a three-screw throttle shaft adjustment can help smooth at cruise RPMS. My best guesses. GL.

Gary in Fairbanks

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[SPORT]

Did you try clearing the two trouble codes to see if they reappear? If they do, then it's likely the TPS or associated wiring. System voltage is critical >14VDC running, plus good battery contacts. Battery should stay >12.8VDC overnight after running, or after a good 15VDC two hour charge to equalize the cells. Could also be an ECU or other problem. A TBS will smooth at idle, a three-screw throttle shaft adjustment can help smooth at cruise RPMS. My best guesses. GL.
Gary in Fairbanks

Gary in Fairbanks

I'll put the Feej on a trickle charge tonight and check it tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion.

I did clear the codes and ran it again. the symptoms returned, but there are no error codes. I even checked CO's to see if they may have altered. But they are the same +7 from stock.

 

[PA1195]

Did you try clearing the two trouble codes to see if they reappear? If they do, then it's likely the TPS or associated wiring. System voltage is critical >14VDC running, plus good battery contacts. Battery should stay >12.8VDC overnight after running, or after a good 15VDC two hour charge to equalize the cells. Could also be an ECU or other problem. A TBS will smooth at idle, a three-screw throttle shaft adjustment can help smooth at cruise RPMS. My best guesses. GL.
Gary in Fairbanks

Gary in Fairbanks

I'll put the Feej on a trickle charge tonight and check it tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion.

I did clear the codes and ran it again. the symptoms returned, but there are no error codes. I even checked CO's to see if they may have altered. But they are the same +7 from stock.

Some other thoughts. Eliminate the possibility of a bad spark plug. One dropping out then back on could cause the extreme RPM cycling.

It's a pain, but if you can run the bike at the dropped RPMS, and check the individual exhaust header temps (via a remote IR temp sensor, or crayon applied to pipes after shutdown - melts slower on a cold stack) to maybe isolate the cylinder if that's the source.

It sounds somewhat like the '06-07 ECU problems, that were caused by faulty Barometric pressure determination after some running. It was mentioned earlier to check Baro sensor that's on the earlier bikes. There's probably a test for that sensor in the '05 Manual.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[SPORT]

Some other thoughts. Eliminate the possibility of a bad spark plug. One dropping out then back on could cause the extreme RPM cycling.
It's a pain, but if you can run the bike at the dropped RPMS, and check the individual exhaust header temps (via a remote IR temp sensor, or crayon applied to pipes after shutdown - melts slower on a cold stack) to maybe isolate the cylinder if that's the source.

It sounds somewhat like the '06-07 ECU problems, that were caused by faulty Barometric pressure determination after some running. It was mentioned earlier to check Baro sensor that's on the earlier bikes. There's probably a test for that sensor in the '05 Manual.

Gary in Fairbanks

Due to these symptoms I replaced the plugs with Iridium, and the problem still exists. I have read here about a possible ECU problem but was unaware of it being a temp/pressure issue. Ill also run an IR on the exhaust pipes to see which cyl. is cooler.

Thanks again.

 

[PA1195]

Due to these symptoms I replaced the plugs with Iridium, and the problem still exists. I have read here about a possible ECU problem but was unaware of it being a temp/pressure issue. Ill also run an IR on the exhaust pipes to see which cyl. is cooler.
Thanks again.

If you have an IR gun then see if one, or two, cyls go cooler when it misfires. Might not be much, and test above the two center pipe crossover if possible - they're visible through the side fairing slots. Of course another way would be to loosely attach all spark plug caps, and then carefully lift one at a time during a misfire event to see which if any are currently dead. Two cyls (#1-4, #2-3) would indicate a bad coil. Only one 'maybe' a coil issue, or more likely a plug wire or cylinder problem like valves or bad fuel injector.

If there are intermittently dead plugs, then check for an intermittent coil, or coil connections - as in primary connection contacts either at the coil, ECU, or others in between. And of course plug wires and plug cap connections as has been mentioned earlier. The abrupt RPM cycling could be due to ignition and not just fuel related. There are several tests in the Manual for coil and spark performance of course (performance test diagnostics, plus static electrical measurements), but it might be hard to duplicate an intermittent issue on a cold assembly. Heat can cause coils and wires to do bad and go intermittent as you know. A bad primary connection or internal coil windings would effect two cylinders (#1-4, #2-3), while with a bad high tension wire or cylinder problem only one cylinder would be affected.

The Baro sensor problem would more likely cause loss of power and rough running due to an improper mixture, but should reset after sufficient throttle twisting or engine stoppage if the ECU and sensor were ok. I'd guess it's effects would not be as abrupt as an ignition defect.

The crankshaft position sensor can upset the timing, and there's a static electrical test for that as well. PIA, but better than paying a Dealer to trouble shoot until you exhaust all your resources.

Gary

 

[SPORT]

Thanks Gary,

You gave me a lot to chew on. I was really hopin not to go that deep, but...

On another note, I charged the battery overnight, started it this afternoon and ran it to temperature. It seemed to idle slightly better but still had the exact same issue as before.

Has anyone here encountered a battery causing RPM fluctuations? The battery is approx. 4 years old, could it be time?

 

[RadioHowie]

Thanks Gary,
You gave me a lot to chew on. I was really hopin not to go that deep, but...

On another note, I charged the battery overnight, started it this afternoon and ran it to temperature. It seemed to idle slightly better but still had the exact same issue as before.

Has anyone here encountered a battery causing RPM fluctuations? The battery is approx. 4 years old, could it be time?

Have you checked that all the clamps attaching the throttle bodies to the intake manifold are tight? Loose clamps could contribute to vacuum leak(s).

 

[PA1195]

Thanks Gary,
You gave me a lot to chew on. I was really hopin not to go that deep, but...

On another note, I charged the battery overnight, started it this afternoon and ran it to temperature. It seemed to idle slightly better but still had the exact same issue as before.

Has anyone here encountered a battery causing RPM fluctuations? The battery is approx. 4 years old, could it be time?

Just dinkin' around until my driveway clears of ice and it quits freezing in spots on our Alaskan roads. RHowie has a good suggestion - check for vacuum leaks like loose caps and TB clamps. Still sounds like ignition but just guessing. Check your battery after it sits for a few hours after charging - must be above 12.8V. But - once the bike is running the alternator should maintain at least 14.2V, so a bad battery really doesn't effect the system providing the alternator can bring up the voltage, charge the battery, and run the bike's electricals. So, check these items - idle battery voltage and system running voltage and let us know what you find (B+ to B-). The running voltage should be steady at a steady rpm and not fluctuate due to an old FKD battery or connections.

Check the ignition and engine items I noted earlier if you have the time (plugs firing ok, header temps). The Dealer will likely do the same on your dimes.

Gary in Fairbanks with two feet of snow in the yard. Dog poop just emerging from hibernation. Everyone crabby.

 

[RadioHowie]

Just thought of another possible vacuum leak location.

It certainly is possible...although completely unnecessary...that the tech that did the TPS recall pulled the fuel rail off the bike. It WOULD give someone a little more room to get to the TPS for removal.

IF someone was to remove the fuel rail and injectors, it's very possible one of the injector O-rings didn't seat well in the throttle bodies, or was cut or rolled during a ham-handed reinstall.

Might be something to check. It only takes 2 screws (installed with about 400 lb/ft of torque at the factory) to yank the fuel rail, making it a VERY tempting removal to aid in a TPS replacement. Not to mention, it makes it very easy to check for bad O-rings. Dab a little silicone grease on the rings if you do pull the injectors. Helps with reinstall and sealing confidence.

 

[SPORT]

Just thought of another possible vacuum leak location.
It certainly is possible...although completely unnecessary...that the tech that did the TPS recall pulled the fuel rail off the bike. It WOULD give someone a little more room to get to the TPS for removal.

IF someone was to remove the fuel rail and injectors, it's very possible one of the injector O-rings didn't seat well in the throttle bodies, or was cut or rolled during a ham-handed reinstall.

Might be something to check. It only takes 2 screws (installed with about 400 lb/ft of torque at the factory) to yank the fuel rail, making it a VERY tempting removal to aid in a TPS replacement. Not to mention, it makes it very easy to check for bad O-rings. Dab a little silicone grease on the rings if you do pull the injectors. Helps with reinstall and sealing confidence.

Hmmmm! That is good to know! I'll be taking her into the dealer next week and will questions the mechanics procedure for getting to the TPS. If I have some more time I'll take her off myself and check.

Thank you

 

[SPORT]

I'm beginning to realize the engine roughness seems to cycle. That is, as stated earlier, I'll set the RPM at 3,000 RPM, the bike will settle there for about 30 sec. then rise up to 3,500+/- RPM for about 20 sec. then dip down to about 2,500RPM for another 20 sec. then finally return to 3,000 RPM for another 20-30 seconds. It's like it's seeking a balance and the then over compensates and finds a new balance.

Could be vacuum leak and ECU trying to compensate. Hmmmm?

After coaching my MSF ranges this weekend I'll check exhaust temps, and vacuum leaks at the TB.

I'll be Bauck!

 

[Thug]

It's a faulty ECU I'll put money on it......good luck anyhow at least you will have been over every inch of the bike, that should give you some piece of mind!

 

[SPORT]

Road a few miles yesterday on the freeway. Still troubled by the symptoms.

1) Idle is solid, strong. Even after a high RPM blip, the RPM returns to 1,000 and holds steady.

2) Acceleration is still VERY strong and does not 'feel' like anything is wrong.

However,

1) an intermittent hesitation is felt during cruise. Moreso below 3,500 RPM

2) Throttle has become VERY jerky as it has the feel of an on/off switch with slight roll on or off.

3) The engine has a tendency to hesitate when rolling off of idle

These symptoms still remind me of a faulty TPS; however, as Thug pointed out, I can't rule out the ECU either. Beyond a TBS, which I'll try to do this week, I feel it's beyond my abilities to rectify and must sucomb to the stealers advice and expense.

More to follow