Trouble down shifting on the Gen3

[RossKean]

The residue on the top steel disc looks like far more than I would expect from overnight sticking. I think that the overnight thing is more a function of the friction discs being "glued" to the steels with a thin film of oil - when they "break" away, I don't think there should be visible residue left behind. No oil to be seen in the pictured clutch!

Hopefully, the whole problem goes away after this!! Even if Dave is not getting the dealer to do anything for this, I think some photos and description of the issue should be sent to Yamaha. I would not get the dealer to do this either because I'm sure that they wouldn't give it the care and attention I would.

 

[Fred W]

I agree with Ross. The black marks on the steel plates is excessive and I expect that is what is causing the clutch drag. I would hazard a guess that those marks are some of the friction material that stuck to the steel during the time that the bike sat unused after manufacture and before you bought it as a leftover. If the plates are now all cleaned up, oiled and reinstalled I think your problem will be resolved.

FWIW- You may have been able to scrub those steel plates clean by doing a few aggressive launches slipping the clutch a little more than normal, as was recomended by Constant Mesh earlier.

I paid close attention to the orientation of my clutch plates on both my '05, and later on my '14, and neither of them had the pink paint dots aligned between the triangles from the factory per conventional wisdom. When I upgraded the '14 to a slipper assist configuration the new friction discs didn't have any paint marks so the just went in randomly. Both before and after the upgrade the clutch drag has always been very minimal, so little that I generally do not get a kerchunk when shifting from neutral into 1st gear with minimum wait.

 

[dcarver]

Check for plate flatness too....

 

[eflyguy]

As stated, those marks on that steel are not right. They shouldn't be there at all, but I'm also troubled by the fact that they are not uniform. Even if the clutch is dragging, they slide against each other, and no permanent impression should be left like that.

Also as stated, I'd be a little worried that they are warped - that could cause the lack of uniformity, along with other issues.

Severe clutch abuse can do this - guys who drag race their street bikes, especially if they don't pay attention to clutch temperature (shutting the bike down after a run) have these kinds of issues.

 

[08FJR4ME]

Ok, Final assembly completed and test ride around the block (5 miles) confirms all is FJR bliss again. I am still running the dino oil and need to change that out next. Some observations during disassembly.

1) not all pink dots were between the arrows.

2) one friction plate had no pink dot at all (studied it for 15 minutes and could find no trace of a pink dot)

3) The inner ring was in backwards when disassembling. (The outside was in the inside) 2015's do not have the white dot. They are stamped outside.

So the bike was in storage most likely for a year until I bought it. I bought it in the fall so I believe there was only 800 miles there abouts when I put it away for the winter. I babied the shit out of it in touring mode most the time. Most the black wedges witnessed on the steel plates came off with some elbow grease and some W-D40. The stuff was stuck on. So is this partly my fault or mostly MaMa Yamahas? I am going with 75% Mama Y's and 25% me for not beating the snot out of like I did with the 08.

That's all folks, now onto other chores,

Dave

 

[Fred W]

Gotta love a happy ending!

 

[SmashVol]

Glad to hear you got it working well but a shame you had to go through all that.

 

[08FJR4ME]

Just finished changing the oil out. That's enough for today. Got a lot done and now its time to take a break.

Dave

 

[HotRodZilla]

Glad that worked. Pretty sure that would not have happened, so how were you supposed to know to hammer the throttle and clutch, just to make it work correctly. Let's hope that was the final fix.

 

[RossKean]

I am curious about whether oil fill level makes any difference with respect to dry clutch issues. I always fill just to the top of the sight glass.

I hope your problems are all in the past!

 

[08FJR4ME]

It sure would be nice if they had some openings in the outer basket. I really don't see how oil can get up in there much at all. Near as I can tell it gets splashed up from the front by the crank in that forward opening. There is very little area for the oil to get in once it is all put back together. All I know is now it works and I am happy again.

Dave

 

[Fred W]

The path for oil is from the inner hub outward by centrifugal force. There is oil that passes thru the hub roller bearing and past the two "slots" in the large washer at the clutch side. From there it makes its way outward through some small holes in the hub (boss) and to the discs. There isn't much oil moving, but it apparently doesn't take very much. Most problems seem to happen after a period of sitting, either right after manufacture or at a later time.

 

[JIMMY REB]

On my 14a the clutch does not release right away to down shift. I have to give it a moment to release, then it downshifts fine. Worst when cold- gets better as the bike warms up.

 

[mcatrophy]

I am curious about whether oil fill level makes any difference with respect to dry clutch issues. I always fill just to the top of the sight glass. I hope your problems are all in the past!

Very unlikely. The site glass is well below the clutch plates, something like 4 inches, and when running, the oil level is going to be even lower. The odd half inch isn't going to make any difference.

(Click on image for larger view)



If oil is delivered to the clutch interior along the centre push rod as Fred suggests, it's presumably from a pressure feed, in which case the level, so long as it is sufficient, is irrelevant.

Having played quite a bit with the clutch, I don't think there is any lubrication from splashing or mist. Any that gets near the clutch basket would be slung off by centrifugal force.

Little video of the clutch when running:

 

[dcarver]

Cool video mcatrophy!

 

[K_Flyer]

Don't see much oil spraying around in the video. The BMW K1200GT's in '06 and '07 had a lot of clutch problems until they put a positive feed of oil to the clutch. (These were their first wet-clutch models.) I had two clutches replaced in the first 22 k miles until the upgrade. Never had the sticky clutch like on the FJR. (A "problem" I am happy to live with compared to the many problems on the Beemer!)

 

[Constant Mesh]

https://atrophy.lock.net/pi/20100320/tmp/1_DSCF5894.jpg

This photo is very informative.

You see lots of oil has accumulated in the ports of this stationary disc on the clutch cover. How did it get there?

Apparently it was thrown out horizontally from the clutch housing and pressure plate as they rotate.

Almost all the oil for the clutch components comes from leakage from the clutch housing bearing.

The friction plate tabs get lots of oil from the constant flow inside the clutch housing. As the oil leaves the outside edge of the housing it's thrown out horizontally onto the stationary disc shown above.

The tabs of the metal plates get almost no oil. Very little oil gets to the junctions between the friction and metal plates. The outside few plates get a bit of oil spray off the crankshaft. Obviously when the clutch lever is pulled and the plates separate a bit some of the oil spray gets into the gaps between the outermost plates.

The oil entering the clutch boss via two large holes in the back flows out onto the pressure plate and the release bearing within.

 

[NMRoadRunner]

I'll just simplify this for you, you're disks are sticking together but you don't need to disassemble and soak them. Do some hot starts, slipping the clutch several times, maybe ten or so and burn off the assembly grease they used, high revs and letting the clutch slip will do the trick. Then change the oil, dun deal!

 

[Fred W]

Technically it is impossible that the plates could ever really be stuck together and still ever get the clutch to disengage. When the bike is stationary and the clutch is disengaged (lever pulled in fully) the clutch basket is still being spun at engine rpm decreased by the primary drive ratio. The friction plates are all captive in the basket so they are spinning too. The clutch hub (aka boss) is connected to the stationary transmission, and all the steel plates are splined to that so every one of the interleaved plates is slipping past it's two adjacent ones.

The problem was that the interfaces between the steel plates and friction plates were both ridged (friction plates always are and the buildup on the steel plates mimicked that pattern). So there was not enough clearance when fully disengaged, resulting in excess drag.

 

[Constant Mesh]

Therefore slipping the clutch aggressively periodically should clean the plates for acceptable performance.

If one can clean the plates by hand successfully with abrasive pads, etc. one should certainly anticipate a thorough plate cleaning via a periodic purposeful slipping of the plates.

Purposeful periodic clutch slipping may be viewed as good clutch maintenance.