Trouble down shifting on the Gen3

[08FJR4ME]

Mine got to the point where I had no clutch.

1) bike started and running.

2) in neutral clutch pulled in.

3) shift to first and motor stalls.

I would say at this point there isn't a dam thing slipping. That's my observations.

Dave

 

[Warchild]

I am very unhappy to read about these clutch issues.... don't seem to recall very many from Gen I-III bikes. Sadly, I have one to report also on the 2018 Gen IV, and it is currently PISSING me off to no end.

That said--- I have less than 25 miles of the bike, have never ridden it in daylight yet. So the following may be premature. Maybe.

This issue is the clutch - regardless of Pazzo Level setting - seems to engage way, way, way, waaaaaaay late, like less than 3/4" of the remaining outer throw of the lever. Stalled more than once leaving the driveway. Have not had a chance yet to bleed the clutch hydraulic line, but I never, ever seen (in the last 15 years) where the Yamaha factory release a bike with air in the lines. I don't anticipate finding any when I look

Another, FAR WORSE clutch issue that I am hoping will sort out as I get into the bike more, and this one is REALLY disturbing: on the ride into work this morning, the torque of the motor ('S' mode) completely overwhelmed the slipper clutch. It got to the point where I could easily spin up the tach (in gear), and watch the tach swing higher and higher with NO corresponding "oomph" of acceleration. If I backed off the application of throttle to a gentle, even-handed acceleration, clutch response/feeling of acceleration seemed to be back in normal operating parameters.

This is not the way I am used to a slipper clutch operation. I am very familiar with slipper clutches; I currently have one on my 10-year-old Hayabusa, and there is NEVER a time the behavior is like what I am seeing on the Phantom Blue bike. And the Busa motor is far more powerful than ours.

So... what the ****.

Obviously, further investigation and trial runs are indicated.

 

[escapefjrtist]

This is a new one. There is a change in lever travel from previous generations, but shouldn't be that pronounced. Clutch slipping...first report ever of that - ever.

Are you SURE the push rod is landed properly in the brass bushing hole?

--G

 

[Warchild]

This is a new one. There is a change in lever travel from previous generations, but shouldn't be that pronounced. Clutch slipping...first report ever of that - ever.
Are you SURE the push rod is landed properly in the brass bushing hole?

--G

I haven't had a chance to look at the bike at all.

And I am certainly not terribly incline to rip apart the bike when it is only days out of the crate.

*sigh* I am less concerned about the clutch throw, then I am about acceleration clutch slippage. This is certainly way early in this bike's life... let's see if I still have this level of angst in a week or so.

 

[mcatrophy]

I am very unhappy to read about these clutch issues.... don't seem to recall very many from Gen I-III bikes. Sadly, I have one to report also on the 2018 Gen IV, and it is currently PISSING me off to no end. :weirdsmiley: That said--- I have less than 25 miles of the bike, have never ridden it in daylight yet. So the following may be premature. Maybe.

This issue is the clutch - regardless of Pazzo Level setting - seems to engage way, way, way, waaaaaaay late, like less than 3/4" of the remaining outer throw of the lever. Stalled more than once leaving the driveway. Have not had a chance yet to bleed the clutch hydraulic line, but I never, ever seen (in the last 15 years) where the Yamaha factory release a bike with air in the lines. I don't anticipate finding any when I look

Another, FAR WORSE clutch issue that I am hoping will sort out as I get into the bike more, and this one is REALLY disturbing: on the ride into work this morning, the torque of the motor ('S' mode) completely overwhelmed the slipper clutch. It got to the point where I could easily spin up the tach (in gear), and watch the tach swing higher and higher with NO corresponding "oomph" of acceleration. If I backed off the application of throttle to a gentle, even-handed acceleration, clutch response/feeling of acceleration seemed to be back in normal operating parameters.

This is not the way I am used to a slipper clutch operation. I am very familiar with slipper clutches; I currently have one on my 10-year-old Hayabusa, and there is NEVER a time the behavior is like what I am seeing on the Phantom Blue bike. And the Busa motor is far more powerful than ours.

So... what the ****. :fool: Obviously, further investigation and trial runs are indicated.

As I understand it, the slipper clutch relies on some forward torque to cam the clutch to a tighter engagement than the springs could give on their own, hence they can use weaker springs so you get a lighter pull. The converse of this is the clutch will disengage somewhat with reverse torque, so slipping a bit to prevent the rear wheel from chirping on enthusiastic down-changes.
Either the original spring-only pressure isn't sufficient to provide the cam action (clutch never initially engaging properly), or the cams aren't sliding as they should.

Whatever the cause, it's really for your dealer to sort (if you trust him).

It's just possible it will bed in with use, but I doubt it.

 

[Fred W]

The slipper clutch doesn't work like that, at least mine doesn't (I put a '16 clutch in my '14), and yes I have the Chinese Pazzo knock-offs on mine. There is something wrong with yours.

Air in the lines wouldn't cause a slipping clutch. Just the opposite, it would cause a clutch that drags or doesn't disengage until very close to the handlebar, if at all.

I think escapefjrtist was suggesting that you may have got the clutch lever installed incorrectly somehow (master cylinder push rod not seated all the way). Considering that you did mess with the levers, that is a really good place to look.

 

[08FJR4ME]

My Gen2 never slipped,

Ducking,

Dave

I did have to pull the clutch on the 2015 with less than 1K because all the plate were stuck together.

 

[Warchild]

Happy news. There is NOTHING wrong with the Phantom Blue bike.

Ignacio graciously ran home and grabbed tools, and a spare 2014 OEM clutch lever. I install it, and run down the road a mile or so to check it out.

NO acceleration slippage... not even a hint.

The Pazzo clutch lever is off my 2013... and I admit it took more than unusual amount of energy to get the clutch side Pazzo installed. I am now very suspicious of it... I find it HIGHLY unlikely that Yamaha changed the clutch lever mounting flanges in any way.... the same Pazzo lever models (clutch: F-19; brake: C-777) are called for on every FJR between 2004 and 2017. Yet, clearly, something's up here....

So I am not sure what I got going on here quite yet, the main thing is that the bike again behaves as expected.

 

[Ignacio]

Happy news. There is NOTHING wrong with the Phantom Blue bike.

I am now very suspicious of it... I find it HIGHLY unlikely that Yamaha changed the clutch lever mounting flanges in any way.... the same Pazzo lever models (clutch: F-19; brake: C-777) are called for on every FJR between 2004 and 2017. Yet, clearly, something's up here....

Agree...it's odd. But there may be something to do with that ear that appears to have a bevel beyond the pivot point on stockers and not-so-much on the Pazzo. That and an interesting little nick in the Pazzo you took off.

Me thinks this is sort-outable and glad it doesn't slip anymore. And I don't think it relates to this thread regardless.

And I think you have a typo on your post. Pazzo shows the brake as F-14 for the 2003 and F-16 for the 2004-2017. Even though there's a chance they've inverted and meant clutch....I don't think there's any F-19 in this equation.

 

[Fred W]

Good deal. That was the only thing that made sense.

In retrospect, I think I recall having some trouble getting that push-rod correctly oriented when installing my Pazzo knock offs. I bet if you pay real close attention when you try to put it back on again you'll figure out the SNAFU.

 

[art miller]

Happy news. There is NOTHING wrong with the Phantom Blue bike.

I am now very suspicious of it... I find it HIGHLY unlikely that Yamaha changed the clutch lever mounting flanges in any way.... the same Pazzo lever models (clutch: F-19; brake: C-777) are called for on every FJR between 2004 and 2017. Yet, clearly, something's up here....

Agree...it's odd. But there may be something to do with that ear that appears to have a bevel beyond the pivot point on stockers and not-so-much on the Pazzo. That and an interesting little nick in the Pazzo you took off.

Me thinks this is sort-outable and glad it doesn't slip anymore. And I don't think it relates to this thread regardless.

And I think you have a typo on your post. Pazzo shows the brake as F-14 for the 2003 and F-16 for the 2004-2017. Even though there's a chance they've inverted and meant clutch....I don't think there's any F-19 in this equation.

With the handle "Warchild", is it possible he damaged the Pazzo clutch lever when R&R'in it??

 

[escapefjrtist]

Good to hear the lever swap "fixed" the clutch issue Dale. Don't need any '18 problems in the first days of ownership!!

On my way to work this morning, I was in a hurry and should have been more specific with my initial push-rod question. Fred clarified what I suggested happened with the Pazzo lever swap. I have several sets of knock-offs plus a set of real Pazzo's and lining up the clutch lever/bushing/push-rod is always a challenge. If you miss the "hole" in the bushing you're adding some master cylinder pressure and the clutch will slip. Many threads on the same subject...

Although I'm not a gambling man, I bet there isn't anything wrong with the clutch Pazzo. With some install TLC the fancy black lever(s) will ride again!

Bike looks great, can't wait to see the color in person.

--G

 

[mcatrophy]

Very pleased it wasn't a new slipper clutch issue. Even though my new 2018 FJR will have the old-fashioned non-slipper clutch

.

 

[Spud]

Dale, how did it make you feel when you stalled the bike leaving the driveway? Did any neighbor kids laugh at you? Did you yell any obscenities in your helmet? Inquiring minds want to know....

 

[Ignacio]

I have several sets of knock-offs plus a set of real Pazzo's and lining up the clutch lever/bushing/push-rod is always a challenge. If you miss the "hole" in the bushing you're adding some master cylinder pressure and the clutch will slip. Many threads on the same subject...

Although I'm not a gambling man, I bet there isn't anything wrong with the clutch Pazzo. With some install TLC the fancy black lever(s) will ride again!

He and I REALLY worked on that yesterday and he even asked me to install it for him. And it REALLY felt like it went in smoothly and seated properly, but he had the issue again and had to revert back again to stock from work.

We did confirm that we're talking about the "C-777" model of Pazzo and is stamped with "C-777 H" and that mine is stamped "C-777 I"....probably since mine is a bit newer than his. We're gonna try mine on his tomorrow.....just in case.

One would think if it was a seating issue that I'd have hosed mine up in the now three swaps I've done on my 2014, the multiple times he's gone back and forth between his 2018 and 2013 stock and Pazzo, or that the back-to-stock install would hose something one of the times. Reason I ask is more pointed, anybody else install Pazzo clutch on 2016 or later? I'm kinda wondering if there might be something more subtle on later model (since we call them Gen 4) bikes in combination with Pazzos.

 

[Warchild]

All I can say at the moment is that the "C-777 H" model Pazzo Clutch Lever that has been installed and working fine for the past FIVE years on my Gen III FJR, will NOT behave as expected on my 2018 FJR-ES.

Why that is... is unknown at the moment.

After Ignacio installed it and it still displayed the same problems, I am getting more convinced there has been some physical change. I know my way around a FJR; I've been doing them for 15 years now: Matt is just a couple years behind me. If two very experienced FJR guys can consistently replicate the problems multiple times - then I am doubting that this is anything involving happenstance or coincidence.

I still find it unlikely that Yamaha decided the clutch perch needed changing, particularly since it has remained unaltered for 13 consecutive years.

Yet, something is up with this 2018 clutch perch.

We are going to find out what the deal is here, one way, or another.

 

[Fred W]

C'mon guys. I know that you are both pretty smaht guys, and have both worked through some pretty complex mechanical problems in the past (with good outcomes). This can't really be that complicated...

If you have the two levers (the stock one, and the suspect Pazzo) in hand you should be able to measure all of the various dimensions of the pivot vs. thrust point, etc., etc. and find where the disconnect is.

In any case, it's not some giant game-breaking "defect" by Yamaha (like, say an 80 mph cruise control), which should now soothe all of the potential 2018 matte blue Feej buyers that this is not a real "problem". Worst case is, you have to (gasp) use the stock levers! Oh... the travesty.

 

[Ignacio]

This can't really be that complicated...
If you have the two levers (the stock one, and the suspect Pazzo) in hand you should be able to measure all of the various dimensions of the pivot vs. thrust point, etc., etc. and find where the disconnect is.

Eyeballing a stock 2014 and 2018 lever vs. the two Pazzos extensively for about 30 minutes did not yield a noticeable difference on my part. Sorry. I did see some question marks in both the secondary function of actuation of the little rocker switch inboard when comparing angles of material between the stock and Pazzos, questioning a slight prick through the annodizing of his failed lever vs. a slight wear mark on mine, and also a bit of a question on the casting of the '18 vs. my '14 for the bolt to return all the way back to home position....but my eyeball only works to .01" or so.

I did offer him to fire up my Harbor Freight powdercoater to turn a stock lever black as a Mac & Cheese version of his Bruschetta with fresh mozarella and basil Pazzo. He demurred.

Plus it was really cold and frosty on the north side of the building that Dale's special parking spot resides. Toe numbness exceeded our diagnostic talents and went back to work.

Or said another way, I think I'd waste a large amount of forum bandwidth and posts at this point on a piddly ass thing and avoid the bigger elephant in the room...which is that the '18 FJR is pretty frickin' cool.

 

[08FJR4ME]

My guess is something is stopping the lever from returning all the way. I had that issue on my nock offs. Only it was with the front brake not the clutch. The screw was longer and interfered with my hand gaurds and stopped the lever from fully disengaging the brake. Could be a similar explanation. I scratched my head for a while until I found it also.

Dave

 

[Warchild]

My guess is something is stopping the lever from returning all the way.

The observed evidence suggest this is the case.

This might be easier to diagnose if we were using two different brass "keepers" (where the clutch slave pin resides once the lever is installed). But in all our experiments, we used the same, OEM brass keeper from the 2018 bike.

C'mon guys. I know that you are both pretty smaht guys, and have both worked through some pretty complex mechanical problems in the past (with good outcomes). This can't really be that complicated...

C'mon, Fred. Of course it's not complicated. It's just a head-scratcher at this point.

I think everyone agrees installing a lever is easy. It is. But this one is not working as expected.

It ain't the end of the world. I may or may not elect to pursue this issue to find out what the deal is. If I do, and find something noteworthy, I'll post it up.