Turn Signal Self Cancel

[red2kcbr]

Is it time to move this thread to the pointless and reoccuring section?

:lol:

Don't want self-canceling signals, don't need 'em. My MSF instructor, way back in '73, said it like this: "Don't forget to cancel your turn signal, or you look like a dumb ass going down the road."

That impressed me, so I hardly ever do it. I mean hardly ever, like practically never.

It's a habit, like using signals for EVERY lane change and EVERY turn. Like stopping at EVERY stop sign. Like looking both ways at EVERY red light for the red-light running brain-dead POS behind the wheel of some cage.

That's why I don't roll through stop signs, even out in the middle of BFE. That's how you make a BAD habit. Stopping at SOME stop signs can get us killed.

OK, move this thread, please.

 

[yanktar]

Yamaha made the best s/c t/s on the market--had them on my '81 Maxim--the only thing I liked on the bike, on my '91 Venture, and on my '81 XS400. I never had a problem with any of them--either breaking or working in a way I thought stupid. They were simple--you had to travel a certain distance AND they had to be on a certain amount of time before they cancelled. Neither was sufficient.

Kisans aren't as good as the OEMs were, but they are pretty good. You supposedly can add springs and they'll do FULL s/c--no need to press the button again.

Pointless thread? Sure! Got my vote, for all THAT is worth....

 

[markjenn]

AFAIK, there has NEVER been any system designed for any bike that could directly detect when a motorcycle started and ended a cornering maneuver

I've had this discussion with someone in the past. Posted pages out of the service manual showing the Honda steering stem angle sensor. There were 3 conditions that had to be met for the signals to cancel. To your point, the system did use time/distance as part of the conditions, in addition to the steering sensor.

You sound sincere, but I still don't believe these old Hondas (or for that matter any bike) has ever had a steering sensor for a self-canceling turn signal system. The amount of steering counter-steering that one uses to start and stop a turn is very small and it varies with speed. It even reverses a bit between low- and high-speeds. I don't think such a system has ever been remotely technically feasible.

I'll be happy to eat crow when you produce said documentation, but sorry, I don't buy it.

- Mark

 

[Constant Mesh]

One simple method for effective self-canceling would be to link the signal control to the gear position. One would assume that when sitting still with the signal flashing that the gear selected would be 1st or 2nd. As soon as 3rd gear is selected one could assume that the turn has been completed and the signal can be canceled. Maybe this could be easily implemented on the '06 with its gear indication.

 

[SkooterG]

And what about signalling a lane change while in 5th gear?

 

[ionbeam]

And what about signalling a lane change while in 5th gear?

Even your car/truck won't normally self cancel on lane changes. My car has an old fart alarm that goes off after a few minutes to let you know you have been a dumb ass and need to shut off your signal.

 

[Constant Mesh]

I noticed that the Honda ST1300 turn signal hand switch has a lane change feature. If you push the switch part way and hold it you'll get the signal. When you release the switch it'll automatically spring back and the signal shuts off. If you push the switch all the way to the end of it's travel, the signal stays on when you release the switch. As with the FJR you press in the switch to cancel the signal.

I don't think the FJR has a lane-changing feature.

 

[rdfrantz]

I've had this discussion with someone in the past.  Posted pages out of the service manual showing the Honda steering stem angle sensor.  There were 3 conditions that had to be met for the signals to cancel.  To your point, the system did use time/distance as part of the conditions, in addition to the steering sensor.  From the time the system detected angle change it would use time/distance to cancel.  In some unusual situations the signal would time out before completing the turn but it was extremely rare.  I've had my car signals fail to cancel more frequently. 

Yeah. In 265,000 miles on my V65 Sabre, I can only recall two times the system seemed, not really did but just seemed, to something unexpected. I'll verify that I too saw the steering head schematic. It drove me nuts trying to ensure I was wasn't imagining it was operating like a car did. Why that's so was right there in black and white.

And, imagine my surprise that fifteen years later, six speeeds, gear indicators, and "idiot proof" turn signal cancelling weren't standard items on bikes that cost beyond the $5000 my Sabre had.

It IS doable.

Best wishes.

 

[user 1521]

You sound sincere, but I still don't believe these old Hondas (or for that matter any bike) has ever had a steering sensor for a self-canceling turn signal system

This is definitely wrong. Harley Davidson installs self cancelling turn signals for a start, and there have been any number of attempts at various systems.

If you mean, however, a system that works, then I agree, and agree it is impossible, or at least not worth the effort and complexity. The reasons and circumstances for using indicators are numerous.

 

[ionbeam]

FWIW, the FSM for the VF1100S shows the following schematic depiction of the turn signal canceling unit. It sure looks like there is more going on than time/distance and it jives with the mechanical bits and pieces that are part of the steering head. The turn signal button activates the Turn Signal Cancel unit via the LG/W wire, then the TSCU activates the Turn Signal Relay and Position Relay via the Bu/Bl wire. The Position Relay and Turn Signal Relay control the signal lights.

It seems to show that there can be different schemes to manage turn signals that include inputs beyond time/distance. The whole schematic is here.

Nice to hear from ya rdfrantz! I only managed to get ~130k on two VF1100S. Though, at the same time I put another 60k on a V-Max and 50k on a 750F.

 

[markjenn]

I'd like my crow medium-rare please.

With the keywords Sabre and "self-canceling" I was able to unearth some oblique references to some kind of steering sensor on the Honda V4's too. So I agree, there is something going on here, although I also get the impression from a couple posts that it never worked very well. Again, I think it is really tough to sense steering input on a single track vehicle compared to the steering wheel of a car. Complicating things further is the fact that a motorcycle's steering system is change-based rather than absolute - you make steering inputs to start and stop a turn, but not during the turn. With cars, you hold steering input throughout the turn.

In any event, the few bikes shipping with such systems these days (mainly BMWs) are time and distance based and are intended as fail-safe cancel systems when you forget to cancel manually.

Anyway, I apologize to the folks who reported the V4 system. It appears you are right.

- Mark

 

[rdfrantz]

Nice to hear from ya rdfrantz!  I only managed to get ~130k on two VF1100S.  Though, at the same time I put another 60k on a V-Max and 50k on a 750F.

Cool, buddy.

Grown man though I am, I cry about the passing of that V65. It's sleek, responsive dynamics uplifted hundreds upon hudreds of adventures. Most of all the bikes I've owned it evoked the deire to regard it as a living entity like a favored horse.

It was also the first Honda I owned. It even seems odd to me, so much so in light of how well the bike was working to evoke such strong feelings in me, that it never led to any Honda bigotry. I never developed any sense that Generally, Hondas were some supreme clan.

I have a new VFR800 now. And boy does it display that incredible design competence that's attributed to Honda. I'm amazed at what gets revealed as I delve into its innards. Yet, like all 'gods' so far, it does have feet of clay. Much like an Alfa-Romeo, you'd never believe what it takes to get to the thermostat to change it. Damn !! CAD made it possible to assemble all them bits in just that space, but woe to the poor mechanic.

I was A Kawasaki Guy, and didn't hate, but just didn't give much positive regard to Honda. Thankfully, getting through that also led to being open to what might reside in a fer God's Sake Yamaha. Glory be that day, huh?

Best wishes to ya. And, I hope you too will get to continue to play in that V-4 world.

 

[FJRMGM]

"There has never been a self-canceling system for a bike that works well enough to take the place of canceling them manually."

You sir, have obviously never owned a BMW K75-S or you would not say that because it worked perfectly for me for 10 years.

 

[ionbeam]

I'd like my crow medium-rare please.

Crow isn't on the menu, just sharing information. Topics in this forum often work like Ripley's Believe It Not :lol:

Hijacking this thread just a bit for rdfrantz -- The following picture was taken at NOE '05 at Zimbob's. For the non V-4 Honda people let me tell you Zimbob knows how to put on a 4 day party!!! This is an annual V-4 event on Piper Pond in ME. Note what motorcycle is in the group picture at the Honda V-4 event! :agent: Yup, me own FJR. Sort of like taking a dog to a cat show

 

[markjenn]

"There has never been a self-canceling system for a bike that works well enough to take the place of canceling them manually."
You sir, have obviously never owned a BMW K75-S or you would not say that because it worked perfectly for me for 10 years.

I own a R1100S which I believe has the same time/distance system. If you rely on the self-canceling feature all the time, it leaves them a considerable distance after the turn in most situations. I don't think this is safe.

- Mark