Unique Power Commander Setup?

[carlson_mn]

I will try to keep this understandable. My 04 has run spot on since I got it with 20k miles in 2007. Never had any surging whatsoever, no heat issues whatsoever either. Last year I splurged and bought a full Muzzy 4-2-1 system and they pretty much threw in a PC3 as well. Got the whole system for $900.

Here's the thing. The bike runs perfect on the zero map and 02 sensor harness connected. I've tried all of the preset maps and they all had my bike running PIG FAT rich anywhere below 6k rpm and gave crap MPG. I modified the holeshot headers map and pretty much zeroed it out below 4500rpms and left the top end alone, and unplugged the 02 sensor of course. I enjoyed the bike as is for a year and I had good top end and awesome throttle response like I had stock, and great MPG (45) when cruising.

So a year later now, it's spring in MN and I've riding this week with temps in the 20s-40s. Bike was running fine. I got bored and put the 02 sensor back on and put the zero map back on the PC, so it's running stock map. Bike seemed to run just as good if not better! I think the 02 sensor helped adjust for the low temps?? Either way the bike pulled hard... lifted front end easy in 1st gear roll-ons, will spin the tire in 2nd gear if i hit it sometimes.

So my question: Can i leave the 02 sensor connected and run a zero map through about 50% throttle and 6k rpm, and then have the top end and 60-100% throttle modified through a map of my choice (holeshot or muzzy, etc)? Despite the bike running great stock with the muzzy system, I think it may have a bit more pull on top when leaned out a bit through the PC. Will the 02 sensor plugged in interfere and combat the PC in those areas?

I've read just about every thread on Power commander setups I could find on here over the last couple years. Considering how well my bike runs i don't really want to spend $$$'s getting a dyno tune for a custom map.

And yes, I know it's insanity continuing to tinker with a great running bike, but it's fun to tinker. It's not like I'm chopping up the airbox :lol: ....yet....

 

[Powerman]

I run a Wally's smoothness map to 4K, with a Walker Holeshot after that. I can't remember who made it, search the site.

I have LeoVinci cans with gutted cats.

 

[edjo69]

I will try to keep this understandable. My 04 has run spot on since I got it with 20k miles in 2007. Never had any surging whatsoever, no heat issues whatsoever either. Last year I splurged and bought a full Muzzy 4-2-1 system and they pretty much threw in a PC3 as well. Got the whole system for $900.

Here's the thing. The bike runs perfect on the zero map and 02 sensor harness connected. I've tried all of the preset maps and they all had my bike running PIG FAT rich anywhere below 6k rpm and gave crap MPG. I modified the holeshot headers map and pretty much zeroed it out below 4500rpms and left the top end alone, and unplugged the 02 sensor of course. I enjoyed the bike as is for a year and I had good top end and awesome throttle response like I had stock, and great MPG (45) when cruising.

So a year later now, it's spring in MN and I've riding this week with temps in the 20s-40s. Bike was running fine. I got bored and put the 02 sensor back on and put the zero map back on the PC, so it's running stock map. Bike seemed to run just as good if not better! I think the 02 sensor helped adjust for the low temps?? Either way the bike pulled hard... lifted front end easy in 1st gear roll-ons, will spin the tire in 2nd gear if i hit it sometimes.

So my question: Can i leave the 02 sensor connected and run a zero map through about 50% throttle and 6k rpm, and then have the top end and 60-100% throttle modified through a map of my choice (holeshot or muzzy, etc)? Despite the bike running great stock with the muzzy system, I think it may have a bit more pull on top when leaned out a bit through the PC. Will the 02 sensor plugged in interfere and combat the PC in those areas?

I've read just about every thread on Power commander setups I could find on here over the last couple years. Considering how well my bike runs i don't really want to spend $$$'s getting a dyno tune for a custom map.

And yes, I know it's insanity continuing to tinker with a great running bike, but it's fun to tinker. It's not like I'm chopping up the airbox :lol: ....yet....

You spent $900 on a full system and you don"t wanna spend $150ish for a custom map? That really is the beauty of a power commander, getting a map for exactly how your bike breaths. I just cut up my airbox and she going in for custom map #2 as soon as the weather gets better.

 

[UselessPickles]

Last year I splurged and bought a full Muzzy 4-2-1 system and they pretty much threw in a PC3 as well.

Muzzy should be able to supply you with a Power Commander map for their full system.

If you don't like that map, pay for a custom tune, or get a self tuning system (PCV + AutoTune, Motty AFR Tuner) so you can tweak the air:fuel ratios yourself, but be prepared to do some research on air:fuel ratios and you'll need some good data logging to pinpoint YOUR common cruising areas of the map to decide what areas to lean out.

DO NOT just randomly take maps that were tuned on bikes with COMPLETELY different exhaust systems and randomly zero out areas or blindly increase/decrease numbers. You have no idea how much you are affecting the air:fuel ratio in particular areas when you do this. You cannot tune a fuel map based on "feel".

 

[UselessPickles]

I run a Wally's smoothness map to 4K, with a Walker Holeshot after that. I can't remember who made it, search the site.

I have LeoVinci cans with gutted cats.

That doesn't help the OP because they have a full Muzzy system.

 

[carlson_mn]

Thanks guys. The Muzzy system runs fine without a PC so zeroing out areas won't really hurt anything. The map from Muzzy ran very rich and off idle and low and mid rpm throttle response was very bogged down, and gas mileage was shit. I think it just goes to show that the yamaha CO numbers probably make a difference. I'll have to see what numbers my bike has soon.

 

[Bounce]

It runs "fine" in that the air:fuel ratio isn't too rich to foul plugs and not so lean as to burn pistons? Logged and verified?

 

[UselessPickles]

I think it just goes to show that the yamaha CO numbers probably make a difference.

If you've modified your CO values, then return them to stock values and try the Muzzy map again. Official power commander maps are tuned on bikes with all stock settings. In order for the map to work for you, your bike has to be as close as possibly identical to the bike the map was tuned for.

If you ever get a custom tune, you should also return your CO settings to stock first in case you choose to share your map with others.

The Muzzy system runs fine without a PC so zeroing out areas won't really hurt anything.

What is "fine"? It "feels fine"? Or did you use an exhaust analyzer to confirm that the air:fuel ratio is within acceptable ranges? With a full exhaust system change, especially to a 4-2-1 system with no catalytic converters, I think there's a good chance the stock fueling could be somewhere in the "marginally acceptable, but may accelerate engine wear" range. Remember that in stock form, the bike already runs pretty lean in some areas. There's a good chance you're running even leaner now.

Another idea on the Muzzy map... are you sure you got the map for bike's year? The map for 2006+ will be different than the map for bikes prior to 2006.

 

[carlson_mn]

I have not modified my bike's CO numbers. Earlier I was saying I'd like to see what the factory set my CO's at just so I know. Muzzy said their system is fine for a stock bike. I know of a few people on the forum that run it with no PC either. I will have to double check with Muzzy again about year map they gave me but I believe it was Gen1.

I've done a lot of work on carb'd bikes over the years and I know what a rich bike feels like, and my bike did not like the off idle and midrange of the muzzy or holeshot header map. I agree a custom map would be good, but man my bike runs awesome with the top end of the holeshot map, I just want to know if I can run the 02 sensor with it and run closer to stock values in the low and midrange areas?

 

[UselessPickles]

Theoretically, running the stock O2 sensor along with the power commander should cause the bike to run at 14.7:1 AFR when in closed loop mode (generally steady cruise) regardless of what values you have in cruising areas of the fuel map, but there's the possibility that with the power commander adjustments to the fuel amount, the ECU may run out of closed loop adjustment range to actually get you to 14.7:1.

You should still have a properly tuned map in that area for open loop mode (accelerating, decelerating, etc). A good target for partial throttle areas is about 13.6-13.8:1 AFR. It's a good compromise between smoothness and fuel efficiency.

I remember reading somewhere that Dynojet tunes their maps for 13.2:1 near full throttle, and 13.8:1 in the cruising areas. Fuel efficiency is lower than stock when running a Dynojet map, but it's not horrible, and most people agree that the smoothness improvement over stock is worth the decrease in efficiency.

If you're really getting significantly worse fuel efficiency with the Muzzy map (and it's the correct GenI map), then it's possible that they tuned their map rich all around (probably somewhere around 13.0-13.2:1). For reference, I have two maps on my bike that I can switch between with the press of a button. One is tuned to 13.4:1 in the partial throttle areas which averages me around 34mpg (general commuting, city+highway). It's very smooth and enjoyable. The other is generally tuned to 13.6:1 at partial throttle and leaned out to 14.8:1 in some very specific areas that I use when cruising at steady speeds. It takes more concentration and precise throttle control to cope with the jerky throttle when accelerating through corners in the city, but I average around 40mpg for the same type of riding that my other map gives me 34mpg.

 

[carlson_mn]

Thanks UP that is all good info. Another interesting note is that the Muzzy map was written for the 02 sensor to be connected. Everyone pretty much agrees, including of course Power Commander, that it should not be connected. I never had it connected but who knows how it would have ran. My guess is that Muzzy did not spend a lot of time tuning the bike they worked on other than for WOT power. Like the holeshot map, it added about 25-30% fuel throughout the entire midrange from 5%-40% throttle. Obviously it is not a wonder that the bike is going to get crap MPG even just cruising along. I had brought my netbook for a cruise with me on my tank bag and observed the PC software while driving back. Highway speeds range from 5-10% throttle. Also, the tach on the FJR is a bit optimistic, a displayed 4k is actually only about 3850 rpms according to the PC software, FWIW.

Another thought (again, in theory) - with the slight increase in the diameter of the headers, mostly likely the FJR is now breathing slightly less air at certain low and mid rpm's than a stock bike due to decreased exhaust velocities? This would explain the slight loss of midrange between 3-4k before the bike takes off after 4k. If this is true, the bike is probably not running any more lean than a stock bike running the same fuel mapping. I could be completely wrong.

This is a total unscientific guess but I would assume my CO settings may be higher than other bikes on average, I look forward to checking them out. There may be completely different set of circumstances that affect the reason my bike has never had any driveability issues. It always had a very soft throttle and never any heat issues unless it was sitting in traffic above 90 degrees. I think all bikes are hot then!

Again, thanks for brain storming.

 

[FJRay]

This whole thing is kind of like picking fly shit out of pepper. my 03 has a PCIII with the O2 connected. custom mapped on a dyno jet dyno with all the magic software.

So that means on that day under those conditions it was as good as it gets. Now I live at 4300 feet instead of at sealevel and it still runs just fine and gets 50 mpg if I don't ride like an idiot. I think for every day use that close counts and how you get there doesn't really matter.

I do think for parking lot discussion that the PCIII and the exhaust makes you faster and you won't need Viagra :yahoo:

 

[Bounce]

Another thought (again, in theory) - with the slight increase in the diameter of the headers, mostly likely the FJR is now breathing slightly less air at certain low and mid rpm's than a stock bike due to decreased exhaust velocities? This would explain the slight loss of midrange between 3-4k before the bike takes off after 4k. If this is true, the bike is probably not running any more lean than a stock bike running the same fuel mapping. I could be completely wrong.

i would think there would be less restricted exhaust so, if you properly balance both sides of the air pump with the proper intake changes, your would run leaner. the a:f ratio impact on percieved power could vary depending on hitting the sweet spot (more percieved power) or not (loss).

it's all theory and speculation unless you get some real data for your bike with your mods.

as for your CO numbers on the dash, they are all different for each bike as needed for any one set of injectors to meet the mfgr's target output gasses. we could each have a completely different set of numbers that mean little between each bike other than how the settings are used to get to target output gasses for all (tollerances assumed).

again, something that just looking at your CO numbers and someone else's can't tell you anything about without putting it on a dyno and stuffing a gas analyzer up the pipe.

 

[carlson_mn]

This whole thing is kind of like picking fly shit out of pepper. my 03 has a PCIII with the O2 connected. custom mapped on a dyno jet dyno with all the magic software.

So that means on that day under those conditions it was as good as it gets. Now I live at 4300 feet instead of at sealevel and it still runs just fine and gets 50 mpg if I don't ride like an idiot. I think for every day use that close counts and how you get there doesn't really matter.

I do think for parking lot discussion that the PCIII and the exhaust makes you faster and you won't need Viagra :yahoo:

That's what I was looking for... I will try it with the o2 sensor hooked up and see if it causes any issues. I get out to the Black Hills when I can and it's nice to know it still runs fine at higher elevation for you.

 

[Bounce]

You could have made this whole process easier and faster. Next time, in your first message, include the following:

"What I am doing may or may not have any scientific basis. Responses other than those that reinforce my preconceptions and intent will be ignored."

 

[carlson_mn]

Not sure what I ignored. I agree I should get a custom map for best results and I need to get on a dyno with a sniffer to see real A/F ratios. I should have just asked if anyone runs their map with the O2 sensor connected to keep it simple. It's just chit-chat about bikes either way...

 

[Bounce]

What I meant was that is appeared you were dismissing everything anyone posted until you got the specific answer you wanted to reinforce your pre-set course.

If you just bolt things on, without a look-see at what was happening before and what the results were after the mods, you could do more harm than good.

Would you know if your bike was running like this?

That's actually an OEM factory tune without mods (not an FJR). It shows what trying to meet EPA requirements can cause. Slapping on random parts without knowing what needs to be done (or if the new parts did what you wanted) can be at least a waste of time and cash. At worst it can cause more problems than you started with. Ever see the HD riders who slap on straight pipes without any other changes and actually lose power? Ever hear them argue the case that the increased noise is somehow the same as increased power? I'm not saying you did this. I'm simply saying that there's no way to know without testing.

BTW: I'm not just flapping my gums. I take my own medicine too. The above is baseline before I made changes to my car yesterday. By hitting both sides of the air pump (intake AND exhaust), as well as getting a custom tune afterwards, I saw increases of 62Hp and 58Tq... without blowing a ton of cash on things I didn't need.

CAI + Catted Downpipe + Custom Tune did it. No need to throw blowoff valves, meth injection, or a host of other things I see people spending cash on all the time. But without the baseline pull and the tune afterwards (or at least another pull using an off-the-shelf map) it would all be supposition and guess work.

I agree that it's just a chit-chat. Chit chatting about what works, what doesn't and how someone knows something works or if it's just a WAG is how we learn things.

Oh... and afters...

 

[rickcorwn]

Matt, last year at CFO we gave away a free dyno tune by Gramps' mechanic Gary Fischer at Motorsports Plus. I'm not sure that's what he's going to give us this year but...

Are you feeling lucky?

 

[carlson_mn]

If so.... :yahoo:

I'm gonna go ride now...