Updates from new owner with fuel smell and non-starting bike

[RiverDog]

Hi all, I received a ton of support and great suggestions on this forum and I wanted to report back after having the bike looked at and receiving info about the issues. I apologize I didn’t follow up with a video or the results of testing voltages, etc. I decided to call a recommended local mobile tech, who was just here and diagnosed the problems. He was amazing, and I will absolutely use him going forward if necessary, but I digress.

The fuel smell:
It turns out whomever had the fuel pump out last either didn’t reinstall it properly or used the old O ring when they put it back in. There’s fuel leaking out from under the pump. I was already told it needed a new pump so I have ordered one (see all parts ordered below).

Bike not starting:
Looks like the brand new battery I bought has prob been sitting a while and doesn’t have the cranking amps to turn the starter over. It reads 12V at rest but when trying to start the bike it drops to 8V. The tech started the bike with a mobile jumper box and even when running he said the voltage was a little lower than he’d like to see. I’m going to take the battery back and buy a replacement but only after I make them load test it. They told me when I bought it that once installed, it’s considered used and they won’t take it back; however, the tech that came out used to actually work at that shop and knows the parts manager. He is going to call said manager and give his perspective after testing the battery in the hopes that they’ll make an exception and take it back. That’s over and above my expectations!

The tech was also very cool in letting me order the parts to save some money and he will come back and install them. He even gave me a break on the diagnostic fee. If anyone is in NE FL and looking for a GREAT mobile tech let me know and I’ll share his info.

Parts ordered:
- Fuel pump
- Fuel pump O ring
- Starter relay (relay is still good but tech said it’s a common failure, especially after battery issues so I’m replacing it)
- 4 NGK spark plugs

There are also some hoses above the engine that are worn (and maybe even damaged by the leaking fuel) that the tech will replace from his stock when he returns.

Thank you all so much for trying to assist me. I sincerely apologize for creating multiple threads about different issues and causing confusion. You folks are super helpful and kind, and I appreciate all your assistance from the bottom of my heart. I’ll report back when she’s healthy.

 

[Reserector]

Don't throw that old, but working, relay away. Squirrel it away on a shelf.
I bought a FJR with a replaced (cheap?) starter relay and it quit shortly after I got the bike running. It stuck on, in fact. I had to disconnect the battery cable. I let the engine run while I did that' to save the starter. (The starter won't spin while the engine is running.) The key nor the kill switch would stop it from cranking once it stuck on. Luckily the plastics were still off, and I had access.
I swapped in a 20 year old OEM part and it's been fine since.
The moral of the story is: Don't buy unbranded parts that can leave you stranded. (Or burn up your starter.)

 

[RiverDog]

Don't throw that old, but working, relay away. Squirrel it away on a shelf.
I bought a FJR with a replaced starter relay and it quit shortly after I got the bike running. It stuck on, in fact. I had to disconnect the battery cable. I let the engine run while I did that to save the starter. Luckily the plastics were still off, and I had access.
I swapped in a 20 year old OEM part and it's been fine since.
The moral of the story is: Don't buy unbranded parts that can leave you stranded. (Or burn up your starter.)

Noted. Thank you for the tip!

 

[SkooterG]

Interesting. In my experience with 21 different FJRs over the years and 700k miles on them.........

- Fuel pump O-rings don't go bad. Or should I say 'rarely' do. I have an '04 FJR with 212k miles on it's original. No way an '18 should be bad. Unless.... the idiots that worked on it pinched it or damaged it somehow.

- Starter relays don't go bad either. I've never replaced one.

- Fuel pump - ouch! Pricey bastards. I would have looked for a used on ebay. I've never had one fail on any of my FJRs. That being said, I've had to replace two on project FJRs I bought where they sat for extended period of time and tank and fuel pumps rusted.

What is 'voltage a little lower than he would like' with the bike running. That is useless information! I though by now we had you trained better than that! What, specifically is it reading? I can't remember, you DO have a voltmeter, don't you?

Low voltage (under 9v or so) while turning over can also be a bad starter but with an '18 I would think that is not the problem.

I am glad you got it resolved. I am glad you got a good mobile tech. But....... following some of the collective's simple advice that we had given you would have resolved all this days ago! For cheap!

 

[RiverDog]

Interesting. In my experience with 21 different FJRs over the years and 700k miles on them.........

- Fuel pump O-rings don't go bad. Or should I say 'rarely' do. I have an '04 FJR with 212k miles on it's original. No way an '18 should be bad. Unless.... the idiots that worked on it pinched it or damaged it somehow.

- Starter relays don't go bad either. I've never replaced one.

- Fuel pump - ouch! Pricey bastards. I would have looked for a used on ebay. I've never had one fail on any of my FJRs. That being said, I've had to replace two on project FJRs I bought where they sat for extended period of time and tank and fuel pumps rusted.

What is 'voltage a little lower than he would like' with the bike running. That is useless information! I though by now we had you trained better than that! What, specifically is it reading? I can't remember, you DO have a voltmeter, don't you?

Low voltage (under 9v or so) while turning over can also be a bad starter but with an '18 I would think that is not the problem.

I am glad you got it resolved. I am glad you got a good mobile tech. But....... following some of the collective's simple advice that we had given you would have resolved all this days ago! For cheap!

All I can say is that it's leaking where the pump is attached. I think the previous shop didn't reinstall it properly; maybe because the PO wanted to save money. Doesn't surprise me after today: the tech looked at the service report where they supposedly "serviced" the fuel injectors and the looked at the injectors and said they didn't look like they'd been touched and definitely not replaced.

This guy won't install anything but a new, OEM pump and I definitely don't have the patience to do it myself, so it is what it is. I only paid $6500 for a 2018 with ~17k miles so I don't mind spending money to make sure it's done right. I have a trip coming up in March and I don't want any mechanical issues.

I don't know where/how he was testing when he got the bike running. All I know is the meter showed 14.xxV and he said it should be somewhere between 14V and I believe 20V? Sorry I can't tell you more about that.

 

[RossKean]

Save the old pump too. People often need the plastic shell if they break something.
Report back with a voltage reading with the new battery (engine running at idle and at elevated rpm).
Glad that it was the battery, although you still can't rule out the R/R or stator until you have a voltage while running.
(Doesn't surprise me at all. ALWAYS the first thing to check if it isn't turning over.)

(I think I mentioned fuel hose connection or weeping at the fuel pump flange...)

What hoses above the engine? IF they are the ones that are part of the PAIR system, you can delete the whole network if you want. (Need to install block-off plates) Alternatively, I'm sure there are lots of folks who have done so and have their old system just hanging around. (Fuel hose is the only other one...)

 

[SkooterG]

I don't know where/how he was testing when he got the bike running. All I know is the meter showed 14.xxV and he said it should be somewhere between 14V and I believe 20V? Sorry I can't tell you more about that.

That sounds good. Every FJR I have had that is in proper condition has been between 14.1 and 14.3 volts depending on temperature and whether at idle or revving.

 

[RossKean]

Anything over 14V is OK. Above the AGM float and enough to feed a little back in as needed. Anything much over 14.5V isn't doing the battery any favors - overcharge territory and will harm the battery over time. 20V at the battery is way too high! (I assume this is measured at the battery terminals and not AC off the stator. DCV at the terminals will come up a bit more with higher rpm and with a fully charged battery - also depends on load.)

 

[Ignacio]

Thank you all so much for trying to assist me. I sincerely apologize for creating multiple threads about different issues and causing confusion.

I'm glad it worked out! But why did you create yet another thread for this?

Gonna leave this one particular one open, but close the others out so they don't keep zombifying. Thanks for just one thread in the future and so glad so much got resolved.

 

[Whooshka]

Glad it's sorted out. Over 14v charging is great up to about 14.3. If it's charging at 20v I'd guess there's a problem.

BTW individual threads for individual items is fine, keeps replies from getting all mixed up. But multiple threads for the same issue is troublesome for helping out.

 

[escapefjrtist]

Glad you got it sorted out!

~G

 

[torch]

As Scooter and RossKean mention, the FJR was designed with an AGM battery in mind (more oomph for the size). AGM batteries live longer at a slightly lower charging voltage than their traditional flooded cell cousins.

 

[tschutter]

@RiverDog Glad you got it all straight.

That Fuel Pump could also have a crack, set it down or it gets wacked, and you have a problem. I can see that happening easily for someone in too much of a hurry. The important point here is that the leak will be no more.

Battery Voltage - with a bad battery, I can see that it would sag. The battery is not working properly - it's not charging properly either. It all makes sense.

Until you've owned your bike for a while, have some of the maintenance done regularly, ride it (biggest problems with bikes IMHO), you shouldn't count on it as super reliable - but within a month or so, you should be good to go.

 

[Reserector]

@SkooterG My 2003, after 2 years of ownership, started leaking from the fuel pump gasket without any input from me. It was parked and I started smelling gas.
I remember the gasket being very pricey. About $38
Mine was holding its flattened shape and was no longer rubbery. It WAS mostly stuck to both surfaces, so I think it is reasonable to assume that when an older, dried out gasket is disturbed, that it could start leaking after that.
In my case, it was over 20 years old and through many hot and cold cycles.

 

[Reserector]

Oh, and here's the trick to removing the pump if it snags.

 

[Bounce]

How long did you trickle charge the new battery before installing it? I put it on something other than concrete and give it a good BatteryTender smart charge for 24 hours before installing it. It makes sure there's more than a surface charge on the plates.

 

[RossKean]

I put it on something other than concrete

Not storing a lead chemistry battery on concrete used to be important in the days when battery casings were made from more porous (and slightly electrically conductive) materials such as hard rubber composites. They would allow the battery to self-discharge to the point where they would be ruined if stored on concrete. Modern battery cases are typically polypropylene or other non-permeable and non-conductive polymers and storage on concrete or even a metal surface won't hurt a thing.
That said, I agree that it is very much worthwhile to get the battery fully charged (at a low rate) after activation and before installation. I typically use my NOCO 1 amp battery tender for around 12 hours (battery is approx. 75-80% charged after activation according to Yuasa). AGM batteries prefer to be charged at a rate that is not more than one tenth the Ah capacity of the battery (1.2A for a 12 Ah battery).
Buying an already activated battery, you have no idea how (or if) it was charged by the seller. I would want to charge at the low rate for longer than 12 hours using a "smart" charger or battery maintainer.

 

[Ignacio]

Not storing a lead chemistry battery on concrete used to be important in the days when battery casings were made from more porous (and slightly electrically conductive) materials such as hard rubber composites. They would allow the battery to self-discharge to the point where they would be ruined if stored on concrete. Modern battery cases are typically polypropylene or other non-permeable and non-conductive polymers and storage on concrete or even a metal surface won't hurt a thing.

I've not heard this variation on an old mechanic's wife's tail before! I'd heard the one that concrete somehow has an electrical field that discharges batteries, but not that somehow battery jackets conductivity has changed over time.

I was taught by a college professor in automotive engineering, Dr. Thornock, (yes I once pursued Automotive Engineering as a Bachelors degree, but didn't finish) and he had the quite insistent explanation that people are taking a big heavy lead-filled thing and dropping it on a solid surface that's then doing something to the battery plates that make them deform then sulfate. Sorry I'm fuzzy on the chemistry or physics exactly

He showed me data in an old-fashioned paper graph about the g force of even a small drop would exert on the battery and then data about force tests to deform plates. He then went on to say that the popular workaround for the energy field theory (or this theory) is to place a board on the concrete and set the battery on it instead.

This was 1988 so not super current times, but definitely not olden times either. And he said that battery plate metallurgy with alloys including antimony and other metals have beefed up battery plates so that it was less of an issue than in the 50''s or 60's...which might also be an alternative to the case insulator theory too. Wood would be less conductive to ground than concrete maybe.

Anyway, my take-away is that I don't place batteries on the floor at all just not to risk thumping them, the energy field, or grounding.

And it's another tale that I'd immediatley put into the nePrt area if we still had it.

 

[RossKean]

Anyway, my take-away is that I don't place batteries on the floor at all just not to risk thumping them

Fair enough - agreed that dropping them on a hard surface is detrimental to their health but I would also note that an AGM is far more robust in those terms compared to a FLA (flooded lead acid) battery. For powersports, AGM is vastly better than the old liquid electrolyte for vibration resistance as well. The glass mats support the plates quite well.
Nothing in terms of electrical fields or other properties that make storage on a concrete floor any worse than any other surface unless, of course, the outside of the battery is covered with salt or spilled electrolyte that can make an electrical connection of sorts - especially in a humid environment.
NEPRT is missed...