Wicked Webby's Recipe for Great HP and Torque!
- Thread starter Wicked Webby
- Start date
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Cdogman
Bad Boy
I will be doing this and I have a full on 421 muzzy system and a PCIII. What I don't have is access to a Dyno right now and I have a track day in two weeks. Thus I am reluctant to mod this bike (that I know so well as she sits) until after track day.
I would LOVE to see the airbox piccies when you get a chance to finish the photo-shoot.
At 4300 feet above see level here in Salt Lake City I would love to get some of that "Altitude Loss" back
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someone mentioned not being able to test ride because it was going to rain.
this brings up a question for me.
how does this mod deal with function in all weather conditions? does it increase the risk of water intake when riding in frog chokers like some of us do on occasion?
this brings up a question for me.
how does this mod deal with function in all weather conditions? does it increase the risk of water intake when riding in frog chokers like some of us do on occasion?
odot
CC member # 17,----- DUP member # 7, mensa club m
"Frog chokers"......oh, boy......I gotta get me some of that goin on.
FJRMGM
FJRMGM
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Wicked Webby
Right is Harder than Wrong.
Sorry it took so long to get these pics out to you all,
I had a couple done before of how I made my filters and chopped the box, I just took some of the filters in the bike. I will post them here in a couple hours. As far as moisture... I used the oiled K n N filters on the ends of the air box. I would guess any moisture in the air(fog) would not be a problem as the oiled filter element is a decent barrier. As far as submersion of water... Your screwed just as you would be with the stock box. Note... I have run the oiled K n N pod filters on previous bikes(with the air box removed and all the weather protective junk around the box removed also) and have driven for hours in the rain and never had any type of H20 intake problem. See post #19 for my updated pics of the air box and K n N filters.
WW
I had a couple done before of how I made my filters and chopped the box, I just took some of the filters in the bike. I will post them here in a couple hours. As far as moisture... I used the oiled K n N filters on the ends of the air box. I would guess any moisture in the air(fog) would not be a problem as the oiled filter element is a decent barrier. As far as submersion of water... Your screwed just as you would be with the stock box. Note... I have run the oiled K n N pod filters on previous bikes(with the air box removed and all the weather protective junk around the box removed also) and have driven for hours in the rain and never had any type of H20 intake problem. See post #19 for my updated pics of the air box and K n N filters.
WW
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slapnpop
Rest in Peace our Forum Founder
Torch isn't around much on forums, and I can understand why.
I'm not doubting your end results, only some of the conclusions you made along the way. You have not provided proof that the CO setting affects the whole RPM range. Your dyno graphs do not show this. You want me to believe you, then please provide oscilloscope plots of the injector pulse at 1100 and 5000 RMP, at both +0 and +14. I'm guessing you'll see a constant increase in the pulse duration that is a much higher percentage of overall duration at low RPM. I'll hook my bike up on the scope at work if you want to see it for yourself, and can at least back up my statement with proper data to prove or disprove myself.
BTW, Torch's original post, along with all the original BJM research, references the Gen1 machine, and the ECU for the Gen2 may have changed.
And you *really* should install riv-nuts to test the exhaust of each cylinder individually, pre-cat, and prevent that whole degrading the cat issue up front. Cats turn to sand and can get sucked back into the engine when you let off the gas at high RPM, ruining the engine in the process. But, of course you know this, and that riv-nuts are much cheaper than dyno time, right?
Wicked Webby
Right is Harder than Wrong.
Slapnpop,Torch isn't around much on forums, and I can understand why.
I'm not doubting your end results, only some of the conclusions you made along the way. You have not provided proof that the CO setting affects the whole RPM range. Your dyno graphs do not show this. You want me to believe you, then please provide oscilloscope plots of the injector pulse at 1100 and 5000 RMP, at both +0 and +14. I'm guessing you'll see a constant increase in the pulse duration that is a much higher percentage of overall duration at low RPM. I'll hook my bike up on the scope at work if you want to see it for yourself, and can at least back up my statement with proper data to prove or disprove myself.
BTW, Torch's original post, along with all the original BJM research, references the Gen1 machine, and the ECU for the Gen2 may have changed.
And you *really* should install riv-nuts to test the exhaust of each cylinder individually, pre-cat, and prevent that whole degrading the cat issue up front. Cats turn to sand and can get sucked back into the engine when you let off the gas at high RPM, ruining the engine in the process. But, of course you know this, and that riv-nuts are much cheaper than dyno time, right?
Sorry guy. One way or another, it really doesn't matter to me what you believe or do to your bike. I know what has worked awesome for my bike and that is why I shared this info!! You do whatever you think is best for yours. I got nothing to gain here whether you mod your bike or not.
WW
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I cut the cats out 3 years ago and they will never "turn to sand" unless exposed to thermite. They are basically platinized titanium mesh and can take EXTREME heat. In no way like the ceramic crap in autos. Don't expect a big increase in power cutting them out though as it only added 2 HP when I re-tuninglinked the PCIII. If you're going through the trouble, might as well go the whole way and get the Walker or Muzzy. I would have, but just couldn't wait for them to make it back then and I was bored one rainy weekend.
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Wicked Webby
Right is Harder than Wrong.
Thanks Karl,
Good info regarding the type of CATS our bikes have. I suspect the intact CATS platinized titanium mesh will not be exposed to a mixture of ferric oxide and powdered aluminum at a temperature of 4000°F (2200°C). Thus, they should not turn to sand or burn up.
I remember a few years ago tuning my 06 ZX10R. Guys reporting that back to back dynos with the cat in and then punched out only produced 1 more peak HP and and actually lost a tiny bit of torque in the lower rpm range with the cat punched! Not saying the FJR loses any torque with the CAT out cause I don't know BUT it is nice to know that a immediate punch to the cat is not needed!!
WW
Good info regarding the type of CATS our bikes have. I suspect the intact CATS platinized titanium mesh will not be exposed to a mixture of ferric oxide and powdered aluminum at a temperature of 4000°F (2200°C). Thus, they should not turn to sand or burn up.
I remember a few years ago tuning my 06 ZX10R. Guys reporting that back to back dynos with the cat in and then punched out only produced 1 more peak HP and and actually lost a tiny bit of torque in the lower rpm range with the cat punched! Not saying the FJR loses any torque with the CAT out cause I don't know BUT it is nice to know that a immediate punch to the cat is not needed!!
WW
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Wicked Webby
Right is Harder than Wrong.
ALRIGHT...
Been through a few tanks of gas now with all this extra air and fuel... This newly found, unleashed power of my 07FJR1300A is INCREDIBLE FUN!! I can't recommend these mods ENOUGH!! When I ride it nice it isn't much louder than before... HOWEVER.. when I crank up the throttle... It sounds like an old school Holly 4 barrel carburetor opening up under my legs!!
Though, I will admit.. It was kind of a pain in the ass(and a lot of cuss words to get her done)... The hardest part, for me, was getting my mitts between the ABS/linked brake hose box and the right side of the air box(to put on the rear bottom bolt to secure the air filter/frame inside the box). If I was to do it over again... I might have searched for some type of locking latch to install on the inside of the right box to avoid this(for easier access to remove the right filter for cleanings). But I figure, I can deal with it. For now, THE POWER IS WORTH IT !!
These mods paired up with my new PR2's makes me feel like I am on my 06 ZX10R (with bags of course)!! I have re-named my bike as the FJ-R1!!
This extra power does have a drawback... My bike does have a bit more of a thirst for fuel:
Before my AVG MPG stock with just my Remus exhaust was around: 39 mpg(per the computer display).. Half City, Half Hwy and some WOT!!
Now my AVG MPG with all the above mentioned air box mods, extra fuel, Remus exhaust is around: 35 mpg(per the computer display)..same type of riding.
Remember, I do have a yellow box speedo correction device installed and my speedo/odo is pretty much dead on. So I tend to view my avg mpg computer slightly more accurate than it was when the speedo was reading 5% high. So this comparison isn't an apples to apples comparison to those who don't have corrected speedos. As your mpg computer will be giving you more optimistic readings.
ENJOY ALL!!
WW
Been through a few tanks of gas now with all this extra air and fuel... This newly found, unleashed power of my 07FJR1300A is INCREDIBLE FUN!! I can't recommend these mods ENOUGH!! When I ride it nice it isn't much louder than before... HOWEVER.. when I crank up the throttle... It sounds like an old school Holly 4 barrel carburetor opening up under my legs!!
Though, I will admit.. It was kind of a pain in the ass(and a lot of cuss words to get her done)... The hardest part, for me, was getting my mitts between the ABS/linked brake hose box and the right side of the air box(to put on the rear bottom bolt to secure the air filter/frame inside the box). If I was to do it over again... I might have searched for some type of locking latch to install on the inside of the right box to avoid this(for easier access to remove the right filter for cleanings). But I figure, I can deal with it. For now, THE POWER IS WORTH IT !!
These mods paired up with my new PR2's makes me feel like I am on my 06 ZX10R (with bags of course)!! I have re-named my bike as the FJ-R1!!
This extra power does have a drawback... My bike does have a bit more of a thirst for fuel:
Before my AVG MPG stock with just my Remus exhaust was around: 39 mpg(per the computer display).. Half City, Half Hwy and some WOT!!
Now my AVG MPG with all the above mentioned air box mods, extra fuel, Remus exhaust is around: 35 mpg(per the computer display)..same type of riding.
Remember, I do have a yellow box speedo correction device installed and my speedo/odo is pretty much dead on. So I tend to view my avg mpg computer slightly more accurate than it was when the speedo was reading 5% high. So this comparison isn't an apples to apples comparison to those who don't have corrected speedos. As your mpg computer will be giving you more optimistic readings.
ENJOY ALL!!
WW
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Gramps
Well-known member
First off, thanks WW for letting me tag along today. Even though I was usually a few hundred yards behind playing catch up, I had a blast. And for all you skeptics who don't believe the power gains WW achieved, all I have to say is just try to keep up with him & you'll believe.
Hope we can get together again soon.
WW I got back from California last night and had time today to do the barbarian jumper mod. Worked as advertized. I only programmed in + 10 to the stock numbers for now until I can get to a dyno. I left the power commander installed and put a 0 map in it for now which is the same as no power commander. I only got to ride 10 or so miles before the rain hit here again. The bike is definately stronger with the air box modified even if I didn't go as far as you did (so far). :clapping:
Skully
Well-known member
i can't see how a pcIII wouldn't help, the pcIII can make adjustments in the same way as carb jetting to match improved airflow... i believe. correct me if i'm wrong oh yee god-like ones b4 me. (or burn me down and piss on the ashes) :glare:
nice to see this post joining the other hard work documented here, not your everyday cut and paste.
nice to see this post joining the other hard work documented here, not your everyday cut and paste.
Wicked Webby
Right is Harder than Wrong.
Marc,
Indeed! I had a blast riding with you and so did my buddy with the C14. We will get together again for some more FUN... SOON!!! I started a thread on our little ride today with the side by side performance comparo from my ride to the piped C14. Check it out!! Any input or observations by you would be greatly appreciated!
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...=103090&hl=
I will post up here in a little bit on how I change my CO values for better performance against the C14.
WW
You don't.
The barbarian mod is for those who have not (yet) made the jump to a PCIII.
Wicked Webby
Right is Harder than Wrong.
Ok all here is how I have tuned mine now,
Here is how I changed my fuel Co levels after my numerous runs with my friends C14. I started with my baseline numbers of CO that I had established on the dyno. The +14 on all cylinders... Thus.. 19,32,32,35.
Like I stated(truthfully before).. In 2nd,4rd,4th,5th gears ..roll ons(anywhere in the rpm range) I would leave him in the dust! No comparison between the bikes. I was smiling!!
However... In 1st gear roll ons (to simulate) 1/4 mi times... His C14's better gears really shined because we would start out even and toward the top of his 3rd gear(I was still in the middle of my 3rd) he would pull a bike length on me. BUT, I would then pace him.. We never did a run like this to top speed.
With my bike still at the above dyno tuned Co levels.. We did do a couple roll ons to total top speed.. I would always be way ahead until 150+ and, again he would start creeping up when I was topped out(with bags on for both of us) and slowly pass me and get 1-2 bike lengths ahead and then he would run out of steam. And we would be at the same top speed for miles(he was in 5th also) and miles.. I couldn't gain on him and he could pull away anymore. THUS, same top end speeds.
We stopped at one point and I thought I would try to dial in more fuel to my 19,32,32,35.. I upped it 4... 23,36,36,39. I remembered from the dyno that 14 was my value for the 138hp. Also, on the dyno, I did do one run at +20 but that represented a loss oh hp (136). So I have had this gray area from 14 to 20 where maybe I could get a little more hp or maybe not.
Now when we ran the bikes here(+18 on all cylinders), my mid range pull on him in the roll on gears was not as strong(still there but he stayed a lot closer) but the final top out was very close. HE could only get me by 1/2 a bike length. This brought up a good point to me.. A power commander OR a techlusion tuner could fixed this problem. Make the fuel rich enough on top for better top end BUT yet keep it lean enough in the middle for the best roll on performance. However, then I would have to go back to the dyno and start all over... NOT MY PLAN!!
I got to thinking about my dyno times and something I had pondered that night.. Should I even out all the cylinders values (the 08 has this) because now I am letting in air on both sides of the air box and I don't have that restrictive funnel inside bypassing half of the filter.. Hmmm..
So, I changed my Co levels one more time.. I put then even across the board(all four cylinders). I chose to base them off of the #3 cylinder(the base line cylinder). Since the #2 and #3 were always the same and the #4 was always pretty close but slightly higher. So I decided to set them all at +34. 34,34,34,34.
We did a first gear roll on, and I was ahead of him the whole time! We let off at the end of my 4th gear(he was in 5th by now I am sure).We ran out of room on the road! My Friend on the C14 gave me a big thumbs up! We talked later and he said he thought I might of got a slight jump on him(Its possible) BUT he added that my tune level was by far the best at this CO setup!! He did say that our bikes seemed very evenly matched from 1st gear roll ons on up now. We never got a chance to do anymore top out runs but I am sure I didn't loose anything from before. We did do some more 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th gear roll on tests (not just from the low rpms either) and I continued to roast him and run away from him with this setup.
I know the dyno is a great tuning tool but it only takes into consideration a 200lb wheel (load).. And not the load of what the bike weighs PLUS my 230lb ass and the load of the wind resistance. So.. That is why I wanted to do a lot of real World road testing against a fast bike (the C14). Thus, I could base the changes of my tune! IT WORKED GREAT!!
I only recommend my CO levels on a bike with my mods(air box open up, as much as mine, on both sides).
THE DOWN SIDE TO ALL THIS: It should be noted that my avg fuel mpg computer was reading around 29mpg during all this high speed horsing around. But I reset it after we all split up. I drove nice(averaged around 65-70mph on the hwy) for around 25 miles. My avg fuel mpg computer then read 38mpg.
The only reason I post this stuff up is so any of you FJR owners can benefit from these mods. Also, lets face it.. Our FJR does the sport touring thing awesome! Better than the C14. I will say it here that the C14 is a nice bike and great performer! And look how simple and cheap it was for me to make our FJR's as performance oriented as the C14. Even with its five speed gear box disadvantage to the C14! Yes.. my buddy on the C14 weighs more than me (somewhere around 30lbs).. I know that makes a difference! So putting that into perspective here(out of fairness).. Even If my bike would no longer just roast him in roll ons.. The bikes would be so close how could you declare a all out better performer!! Both bikes rock!
Thats what I got and how I got it!
WW
Here is how I changed my fuel Co levels after my numerous runs with my friends C14. I started with my baseline numbers of CO that I had established on the dyno. The +14 on all cylinders... Thus.. 19,32,32,35.
Like I stated(truthfully before).. In 2nd,4rd,4th,5th gears ..roll ons(anywhere in the rpm range) I would leave him in the dust! No comparison between the bikes. I was smiling!!
However... In 1st gear roll ons (to simulate) 1/4 mi times... His C14's better gears really shined because we would start out even and toward the top of his 3rd gear(I was still in the middle of my 3rd) he would pull a bike length on me. BUT, I would then pace him.. We never did a run like this to top speed.
With my bike still at the above dyno tuned Co levels.. We did do a couple roll ons to total top speed.. I would always be way ahead until 150+ and, again he would start creeping up when I was topped out(with bags on for both of us) and slowly pass me and get 1-2 bike lengths ahead and then he would run out of steam. And we would be at the same top speed for miles(he was in 5th also) and miles.. I couldn't gain on him and he could pull away anymore. THUS, same top end speeds.
We stopped at one point and I thought I would try to dial in more fuel to my 19,32,32,35.. I upped it 4... 23,36,36,39. I remembered from the dyno that 14 was my value for the 138hp. Also, on the dyno, I did do one run at +20 but that represented a loss oh hp (136). So I have had this gray area from 14 to 20 where maybe I could get a little more hp or maybe not.
Now when we ran the bikes here(+18 on all cylinders), my mid range pull on him in the roll on gears was not as strong(still there but he stayed a lot closer) but the final top out was very close. HE could only get me by 1/2 a bike length. This brought up a good point to me.. A power commander OR a techlusion tuner could fixed this problem. Make the fuel rich enough on top for better top end BUT yet keep it lean enough in the middle for the best roll on performance. However, then I would have to go back to the dyno and start all over... NOT MY PLAN!!
I got to thinking about my dyno times and something I had pondered that night.. Should I even out all the cylinders values (the 08 has this) because now I am letting in air on both sides of the air box and I don't have that restrictive funnel inside bypassing half of the filter.. Hmmm..
So, I changed my Co levels one more time.. I put then even across the board(all four cylinders). I chose to base them off of the #3 cylinder(the base line cylinder). Since the #2 and #3 were always the same and the #4 was always pretty close but slightly higher. So I decided to set them all at +34. 34,34,34,34.
We did a first gear roll on, and I was ahead of him the whole time! We let off at the end of my 4th gear(he was in 5th by now I am sure).We ran out of room on the road! My Friend on the C14 gave me a big thumbs up! We talked later and he said he thought I might of got a slight jump on him(Its possible) BUT he added that my tune level was by far the best at this CO setup!! He did say that our bikes seemed very evenly matched from 1st gear roll ons on up now. We never got a chance to do anymore top out runs but I am sure I didn't loose anything from before. We did do some more 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th gear roll on tests (not just from the low rpms either) and I continued to roast him and run away from him with this setup.
I know the dyno is a great tuning tool but it only takes into consideration a 200lb wheel (load).. And not the load of what the bike weighs PLUS my 230lb ass and the load of the wind resistance. So.. That is why I wanted to do a lot of real World road testing against a fast bike (the C14). Thus, I could base the changes of my tune! IT WORKED GREAT!!
I only recommend my CO levels on a bike with my mods(air box open up, as much as mine, on both sides).
THE DOWN SIDE TO ALL THIS: It should be noted that my avg fuel mpg computer was reading around 29mpg during all this high speed horsing around. But I reset it after we all split up. I drove nice(averaged around 65-70mph on the hwy) for around 25 miles. My avg fuel mpg computer then read 38mpg.
The only reason I post this stuff up is so any of you FJR owners can benefit from these mods. Also, lets face it.. Our FJR does the sport touring thing awesome! Better than the C14. I will say it here that the C14 is a nice bike and great performer! And look how simple and cheap it was for me to make our FJR's as performance oriented as the C14. Even with its five speed gear box disadvantage to the C14! Yes.. my buddy on the C14 weighs more than me (somewhere around 30lbs).. I know that makes a difference! So putting that into perspective here(out of fairness).. Even If my bike would no longer just roast him in roll ons.. The bikes would be so close how could you declare a all out better performer!! Both bikes rock!
Thats what I got and how I got it!
WW
Just as a counterpoint:
On my '05 my primary goal has always been just to smooth things out. I wanted to get rid of the off-idle lurchyness and eliminate the lean surging at cruise (small throttle opening, mid rpms). My belief is that the lurchyness is due to the fuel map shutting down fuel delivery at 0 throttle position for emissions reasons. The surging is again a lean condition, probably for similar emissions reasons and also a better reported mpg.
My first attempt to resolve these problems was to install the barbarian jumper and go to the "magic +7". This worked, but only partly. I then attempted to go higher and higher in increments of +4. So, I went from +7, to +11, +15, +19 and +23. What I found was I was able to completely eliminate the lurching, and eliminate 95% of the surging, but the expense was the the engine ran much rougher. By that I mean the amount of vibration in the bars and pegs increased significantly. It also felt logey and responded slower to throttle inputs.
Next, I bought a PCIII and installed it along with the stock FJR map. Somewhat smoother on throttle roll-on but only got about a 50% improvement in the surge. Then loaded up Wally smoothness map. Up to about 75% improvement. Manually tweaked some of the cells in the cruise range and I'm back to the ~95% improvement area in surging. But, there is no added vibration and no sluggishness like I got with big CO settings.
The latest thing I have tried (just this week) is to re-connect the O2 sensor and bump the CO settings back up the magic 7. This seems interesting in that I expected hooking up the O2 sensor would negate the PCIII, but this is clearly not the case. I may go ahead and hook up a scope to the O2 sensor and see what's going on mixture wise. I know this won't give me a picture of what each cylinder is doing, but it should shjow me an average of the 4, which is what you adjust with the PCIII anyway. There is a "fuel trim" feature in the PCIII, but mine is set to all zeroes.
I know that what I really need to do is bring it in and put it on a dyno. I just may do that later this summer. I need to scout around and talk to the service guys at a couple of places and make sure that they would be willing do what I want, not what they want, with the dyno. I just want to optimize the fueling, especially in the cruise cells, and if they can tweak the other areas as well that's all fine, but I'm not really looking for the maximum available horsepower.
YMWV
On my '05 my primary goal has always been just to smooth things out. I wanted to get rid of the off-idle lurchyness and eliminate the lean surging at cruise (small throttle opening, mid rpms). My belief is that the lurchyness is due to the fuel map shutting down fuel delivery at 0 throttle position for emissions reasons. The surging is again a lean condition, probably for similar emissions reasons and also a better reported mpg.
My first attempt to resolve these problems was to install the barbarian jumper and go to the "magic +7". This worked, but only partly. I then attempted to go higher and higher in increments of +4. So, I went from +7, to +11, +15, +19 and +23. What I found was I was able to completely eliminate the lurching, and eliminate 95% of the surging, but the expense was the the engine ran much rougher. By that I mean the amount of vibration in the bars and pegs increased significantly. It also felt logey and responded slower to throttle inputs.
Next, I bought a PCIII and installed it along with the stock FJR map. Somewhat smoother on throttle roll-on but only got about a 50% improvement in the surge. Then loaded up Wally smoothness map. Up to about 75% improvement. Manually tweaked some of the cells in the cruise range and I'm back to the ~95% improvement area in surging. But, there is no added vibration and no sluggishness like I got with big CO settings.
The latest thing I have tried (just this week) is to re-connect the O2 sensor and bump the CO settings back up the magic 7. This seems interesting in that I expected hooking up the O2 sensor would negate the PCIII, but this is clearly not the case. I may go ahead and hook up a scope to the O2 sensor and see what's going on mixture wise. I know this won't give me a picture of what each cylinder is doing, but it should shjow me an average of the 4, which is what you adjust with the PCIII anyway. There is a "fuel trim" feature in the PCIII, but mine is set to all zeroes.
I know that what I really need to do is bring it in and put it on a dyno. I just may do that later this summer. I need to scout around and talk to the service guys at a couple of places and make sure that they would be willing do what I want, not what they want, with the dyno. I just want to optimize the fueling, especially in the cruise cells, and if they can tweak the other areas as well that's all fine, but I'm not really looking for the maximum available horsepower.
YMWV
SockMonkey
Makin' Some Noise
Webby, I hate to take the wind out of your sails here, but your recipe isn't really all that remarkable when viewed from the perspective of real world power to weight ratio with you as the rider. Assuming the bike is 625lbs w/ fuel plus your 230lbs, that's a total of 855lbs. Using your best dyno figure of 138.2 hp, that gives a power to weight ratio of 0.1616 hp/lb.
Let's take a 180lb rider on a bone stock '07 FJR that's been (recently) dynoed at 129.8 hp. Assuming the same 625lb bike weight, that gives a power to weight ratio of 0.1612 hp/lb. When factoring in the reduced drag from the lighter rider (assuming a slighter profile), the stock bike *should* have an advantage through the 1/4 mile assuming roughly equal rider abilities.
You're focusing on the trees, Webby. Look at the whole forest..!
Let's take a 180lb rider on a bone stock '07 FJR that's been (recently) dynoed at 129.8 hp. Assuming the same 625lb bike weight, that gives a power to weight ratio of 0.1612 hp/lb. When factoring in the reduced drag from the lighter rider (assuming a slighter profile), the stock bike *should* have an advantage through the 1/4 mile assuming roughly equal rider abilities.
You're focusing on the trees, Webby. Look at the whole forest..!
