FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

RZ350 · Jan 28, 2010

After comparing my harness with the schematic, I believe the last pin of S8 connects to the windshield motor instead of the meter. I don't see a direct ground to the Meter in the schematic, but the Motor clearly shows one. Both of these connectors are missing from my front harness.

Also, you may have noticed that I found a ninth ground bus (S9) in the cowling harness :blink: , but it has black wires with white tracers like S5 so I am ignoring it for now.

smitty141 · Jan 29, 2010

It was my S6 that failed... You guys are killing me with all this tech stuff.

. I just make it simple, cut and soldered. Even with a YES warranty I would hate for that $7.00 dollar a hour Yamaha "tech" to work on my bike. I guess my YES is for one of those major failures.

Smitty :blink:

dbx · Jan 29, 2010

smitty141 said:
It was my S6 that failed... You guys are killing me with all this tech stuff. . I just make it simple, cut and soldered. Even with a YES warranty I would hate for that $7.00 dollar a hour Yamaha "tech" to work on my bike. I guess my YES is for one of those major failures.
Smitty :blink:

Every time you tease us like that, I break out the google maps to see if Hooterville has gotten any closer. Nope, still 5 1/2 hours away, and of course there's that little thing about the shop being closed these days. Oh well.

dirttracker30 · Jan 29, 2010

Well ,I'm impressed with all the info. Even though I am electrically challenged(remember,I'm a Tinner),I'm convinced enough,that this weekend I am going to cut and solder S4and S6 . My question is , on S4 since it is already the main ground,do you just solder it up the way it is ,or do you put another ground to frame off of it too? Thanks again.

mcatrophy · Jan 29, 2010

dirttracker30 said:
...do you just solder it up the way it is ,or do you put another ground to frame off of it too? Thanks again.

If or more probably when I come to do the solder bit, I won't be putting extra grounds on. Couple of reasons, I'm sure the original wires are quite OK for the loads, and I don't want the extra work of finding suitable wire, ground points etc. Read "I'm too lazy to bother, since it doesn't really need it".

bramfrank · Jan 29, 2010

My bike has some 40,000 miles on it and I have no idea whether it will fail soon or not and I really don't feel like tearing into her to check - so you can be certain I am not going to do anything until and unless something goes wrong - and when (not if) the recall is issued I will have an unmodified machine to present to Yamaha.

I have no doubts that YES will cover the failure, should it occur - I also have no doubts that if my bike suffered the failure and had NO YES, Yamaha could well be persuaded to pay for the repair, if through by no other means than the presentation of this thread to a small claims court judge.

In my opinion it constitutes proof of a design defect that should be quite simple for the judge to understand.

We have no obligation to be cutting up our machines to prevent the occurrence. See my posting on the Toyota recall and their posturing for my take on the concept.

RZ350 · Jan 29, 2010

smitty141 said:
It was my S6 that failed... You guys are killing me with all this tech stuff. . I just make it simple, cut and soldered. Even with a YES warranty I would hate for that $7.00 dollar a hour Yamaha "tech" to work on my bike. I guess my YES is for one of those major failures.
Smitty :blink:

Smitty

Although we don't exactly agree on our methods of fixing this problem, I think it is a good idea for you to keep reminding current and future readers that the simple solution can work, and your bike and others are proof of it. I'm sure that's all a lot of folks are looking for anyway. It's actually good information to me because it tells me with a quick fix installed, the existing wiring in the harness may be adequate. It also suggests Yamaha can come up with a quick solution that maybe doesn't involve replacing complete harnesses. I cringe at the thought of them having to replace the harness (if it comes to that) due to other issues in there, because my bike will be spread out over half the shop!

I agree with you 100% on the YES - for me its just for the major stuff. IMHO, its not worth the trip (or the worry) taking it to the dealer for the small stuff, if there is an easy repair I can do myself.

Fred W · Jan 29, 2010

RZ350 said:
I agree with you 100% on the YES - for me its just for the major stuff. IMHO, its not worth the trip (or the worry) taking it to the dealer for the small stuff, if there is an easy repair I can do myself.

The question that poses is: What qualifies as "small stuff"?

To many of us, messing with the wiring harness on the bike comes under that category. But many others have difficulty installing a brake light flasher. To those people, a failure in the wiring is almost as bad as a CCT failure (I know, exaggeration...), and they would want to use their YES to cover the repair.

RZ350 · Jan 29, 2010

dirttracker30 said:
With everyone doing their own fix. This will probably cut down on the troubles being had, which in turn will cut down on the reports to the federal saftey site,which in turn will probably hurt the chances of the feds forcing Yamaha into doing something about this problem. Just saying

There is actually a lot of truth to this statement. If a lot of people do a quick fix themselves, Yamaha may never be forced to fix the problem.

Although I think Yamaha should fix their mistakes and learn from them, if there is a $5 solution that I can do in an hour to remedy one of their design blunders - I'm going to do it. I say sorry to the people that do not have the means or simply don't want to fix it themselves - I have to do what best suits me. A major recall to replace harnesses will be extremely costly to Yamaha and eventually will find its way into the cost of their future products. It is a double edged sword, because I want them to keep prices low but yet I want them to build increasingly better and more reliable bikes.

I would bet that Yamaha does monitor this forum for product feedback, and hopefully will keep things in mind while doing future designs. Getting good feedback from the customer base is very difficult and sometimes very costly - this forum is a freebie to them.

mcatrophy · Jan 29, 2010

bramfrank said:
... I have no doubts that YES will cover the failure, should it occur ...

Provided the failure occurs within the YES period.

In any case, in the UK we get the bike with a 2-year warranty, and no option for any extension. Mine's well out of the warranty period, so unless there's a recall, Yamaha won't fix it on their tab.

In any case, I'd rather do the work myself for reasons others have said.

bramfrank · Jan 29, 2010

A manufacturer cannot escape the liability from a latent (design) defect. So, warranty or not, you can sue and will likely win.

JamesK · Jan 29, 2010

bramfrank said:
A manufacturer cannot escape the liability from a latent (design) defect. So, warranty or not, you can sue and will likely win.

You are probably right. However wining a case for a replacement harness will be a lot less enjoyable from a hospital bed or worse. Because if that Black Widow spider bites you at the wrong time/place, you're going down period.

S76 · Jan 29, 2010

bramfrank said:
My bike has some 40,000 miles on it and I have no idea whether it will fail soon or not and I really don't feel like tearing into her to check - so you can be certain I am not going to do anything until and unless something goes wrong - and when (not if) the recall is issued I will have an unmodified machine to present to Yamaha.
I have no doubts that YES will cover the failure, should it occur - I also have no doubts that if my bike suffered the failure and had NO YES, Yamaha could well be persuaded to pay for the repair, if through by no other means than the presentation of this thread to a small claims court judge.

In my opiion it constitutes proof of a design defect that should be quite simple for the judge to understand.

We have no obligation to be cutting up our machines to prevent the occurrence. See my posting on the Toyota recall and their posturing for my take on the concept.

I understand your point of view. But if I can fix a potential problem with a few hours of labor and it prevents a failure this summer when I am 3000 miles from home, then that is what makes sense to me. I do everything I can to prevent the nightmare of a breakdown while far away. And the technical posts in this forum are the perfect tool to do that. If I read about someone having any kind of problem I'm on it like a hobo on a hot dog. I just don't want the headache when it's fun time.

RZ350 · Jan 29, 2010

While all this chatter is going on...

[SIZE=12pt]Electrical Experts, where are those (edit: accurate) Current Draw [/SIZE]numbers for the components in the table?

Or do you not care to take this any further?

olsonm3915 · Jan 29, 2010

RZ350 said:
While all this chatter is going on...
[SIZE=12pt]Electrical Experts, where are those (edit: accurate) Current Draw [/SIZE]numbers for the components in the table?

Or do you not care to take this any further?

I'm not understanding what you are asking. I think you've already shown the effect of cascading multiple ground spiders together in your spreadsheet. Coming up with an "accurate" number probably isn't necessary. It would actually be easier to take measurements by removing spiders and replacing them with jumper wires and meter leads at this point. If there is any doubt about the current carrying capability of the highest current wires identified in your spreadsheet, it might make sense to parallel them with a 2nd wire running to the same point.

Personally I would settle for a measurement of the voltage drops at all the spiders (or even better, on a harness that has had the spiders cut off and replaced with crimps) to make an assessment of whether the wire gauges are adequate. Obviously you would need to have some way of turning on all possible loads through a particular spider simultaneously for this to be definitive.

I thank you for the work you've put in, I am intensely interested, and I do know a fair amount about electronics.

If you have a specific question about how much any particular component draws, fire away, I don't have my factory service manual here with me at work so I can't consult it, unless someone has already scanned the wiring diagram into a PDF. Note I am not suggesting anyone violate copyright. I am happy to pay the asking price for manuals (I paid $50 new for mine when I bought the bike).

smitty141 · Jan 29, 2010

RZ350 said:
smitty141 said:

It was my S6 that failed... You guys are killing me with all this tech stuff. . I just make it simple, cut and soldered. Even with a YES warranty I would hate for that $7.00 dollar a hour Yamaha "tech" to work on my bike. I guess my YES is for one of those major failures.
Smitty :blink:

Click to expand...

Smitty

Although we don't exactly agree on our methods of fixing this problem, I think it is a good idea for you to keep reminding current and future readers that the simple solution can work, and your bike and others are proof of it. I'm sure that's all a lot of folks are looking for anyway. It's actually good information to me because it tells me with a quick fix installed, the existing wiring in the harness may be adequate. It also suggests Yamaha can come up with a quick solution that maybe doesn't involve replacing complete harnesses. I cringe at the thought of them having to replace the harness (if it comes to that) due to other issues in there, because my bike will be spread out over half the shop!

I agree with you 100% on the YES - for me its just for the major stuff. IMHO, its not worth the trip (or the worry) taking it to the dealer for the small stuff, if there is an easy repair I can do myself.

Well it may not be the right thing to do as far as Yamaha. But I ride alot, and far from home. It would only take a break down 500 miles from home and I would be kicking myself for not cutting these things off. Sure Yamaha should fix this problem, I just can't wait on them. If I do have a major melt down and they refuse to take care of it so be it.

There is nothing worse than waiting a year to go on a bike vacation far from home and to be sitting in a cheap motel hoping the local stealer can fix (with his (minimum wage Tech), or wait for a harness (God forbid). In the mean time you can wait till next year to go to NAFO,EOM,SFO, ect on vacation. It makes me wonder with all these problems I am not riding a Victory Vision, Norge, or a New 1400 Connie.. But I am loyal to the Yamaha brand

..

Smitty

ionbeam · Jan 29, 2010

The pixs will probably not be available long, and in the distant future will show a broken link.

Paging 08FJR4ME. Hex brass stock. Whack 1/2" long sections from the rod. Drill 'n tap one hole each face. Cut wires off spider, crimp one internal or external toothed ring lug on each wire. Attach to rod stock. Slip Heat Shrink over all and shrink. I would suggest placing the holes near one end of the section so the lug can lay along on face of the rod stock for extra strength.

In all the power work I've done I have always used toothed lugs to ensure good electrical contact. If you use a non-insulated ring lug you could solder the wires instead of crimping.

Clickable pixs --

This will retain the factory grounding scheme of the wiring harness, be heat proof, rugged and with the heat shrink to soften the brass wire bundle they can be zip-tied to any near by anchor.

wheatonFJR · Jan 29, 2010

smitty141 said:
... It makes me wonder with all these problems I am not riding a Victory Vision, Norge, or a New 1400 Connie.. But I am loyal to the Yamaha brand ..
Smitty

<hijack>Sorry Smitty 'ol buddy, but as bein' you just coming off your FJR/Gixxer/FJR/KTM/Goldwing/GS purchases, that's the funniest thing I've read all day. :lol:

j/k there buddy. Don't hurt me.

</end hijack>

Okay back to the bad spider thread....

RZ350 · Jan 29, 2010

RZ350 said:
/snip/- All light bulb current was calculated based on wattage listed in service manual divided by 12V (I think there is a little more to it than that but it’s a starting point)

/snip/

- ECM, Rear Brake Light Switch (relay), Fuel Sender, Side Stand Switch, O2 Sensor “A” Connector, Radiator Fans, RH Bar Switches (Run), Acc Box Solenoid, and Headlight Relay were ESTIMATES. I used 100mA for relay coils (just a guess). Others signaling back to the control module were estimated at 100mA as well (no idea there).

/snip

olsonm3915 said:
RZ350 said:

While all this chatter is going on...
[SIZE=12pt]Electrical Experts, where are those (edit: accurate) Current Draw [/SIZE]numbers for the components in the table?

Or do you not care to take this any further?

Click to expand...

I'm not understanding what you are asking.

I'm just wanting to get a little closer with my estimates. Refer to my statemants re-quoted above.

For instance:

Does taking the rated wattage of a bulb and dividing it by the nominal 12V system voltage give the actual amp draw?

Does a relay coil use approximately 100mA.

What is the radiator fan draw? (This was a big guess)

Hopefully you understand now...

olsonm3915 · Jan 29, 2010

RZ350 said:
I'm just wanting to get a little closer with my estimates. Refer to my statemants re-quoted above.
For instance:

Does taking the rated wattage of a bulb and dividing it by the nominal 12V system voltage give the actual amp draw?

Does a relay coil use approximately 100mA.

What is the radiator fan draw? (This was a big guess)

Hopefully you understand now...

1) Yes, for an answer that is close enough for what you are doing here. Actual system voltage is going to be more than 12V, but not by a lot, and again, it doesn't matter, You don't need 1% accuracy.

2) Don't know because it depends a lot on what sort of relay, but it's such a small amount it doesn't usually matter unless it's a very large relay. 100mA is fine to use as a guesstimate.

3) Fan is easy- just measure it. Very hard to get from a spec sheet since the motor (which has a spec sheet) is usually sourced separately from the fan blade.

HTH

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