FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

[salan10]

Sorry if I missed this in the thread, but is there a source for new spiders?

 

[Fred W]

Sorry if I missed this in the thread, but is there a source for new spiders?

You can get them free from anyone that has chopped theirs off.

 

[olsonm3915]

Sorry if I missed this in the thread, but is there a source for new spiders?

Any fix that relies on retaining the spiders is less than ideal, in my opinion. The connector is not weather sealed, and even if the overloading due to excess current problem is dealt with, you still have to worry about the possibility of corrosion. I find it preferable to simply cut off the connector and crimp, then seal the crimp with glue-filled style heat shrink tubing. Very secure, waterproof, and there is no loss of functionality since the connectors did not provide separability anyway. The only downside is possibly needing to remove extra stuff to get access to do the crimp. Certainly, fixes that do involve just modifying the spiders are good for people who don't like to mess with factory wiring harness, and 99.9% of the time I would be firmly in that group.

But this is an exceptional case. As far as voiding the warranty, don't make me laugh. If ever a question arose, all it would take to resolve it would be to produce a few of the excellent high res photos of melted spider connectors to convince anyone who knows anything about wiring that a solid weatherproofed crimp connection is far superior to Yamaha's failed effort. Especially their obvious failure to consider the overloading caused by a 25-1 dual-level cascade.

If well documented cases of failure continue to be submitted to the NHTSA, there can be no other outcome besides Yamaha issuing a recall. I can say without reservation that I would rather do my own work than take the chance of collateral damage being done to my bike while a dealership mechanic attempts to do a wiring harness replacement or modification of the existing harness. No one is going to force me to submit my bike to this recall, and if a subsequent owner wants it done, that will be up to them to decide.

 

[SkooterG]

Sorry if I missed this in the thread, but is there a source for new spiders?

Assuming your profile is correct, you have a 2003 FJR, or a Gen I. Your FJR is not affected by this problem. You don't have the 'ground spiders' in question. This is only a Gen II (2006+) FJR problem.

 

[RZ350]

[SIZE=14pt]JUST A CAUTION ABOUT ADDING A NEW GROUND WIRE TO SPIDER S2...[/SIZE]

(The engine management circuit - Spider containing black wires with blue tracer lines near TB)

I just talked to the EE that integrated the Bosch ECM into our vehicle at work and he warned about taking this particular ground back to chassis ground. There shouldn't be a problem bypassing/removing the spider but it is recommended that this circuit finds its ground path SOLELY from the ECM. He said if it was grounded to the chassis, it would probably run okay but certain safety and diagnostic features MIGHT be diabled. He said he wouldn't be surprised if there was an error code stored in memory as a result of adding the wire to the main chassis ground. Maybe one of you guys that have the new ground wire can check for codes (???)

This all made perfect sense to me so I would recommend NOT adding the extra chassis ground wire to S2 (ECM circuit), since I don't think anyone has reported this one as a problematic one anyway. Better safe than sorry.

 

[salan10]

Sorry if I missed this in the thread, but is there a source for new spiders?

Assuming your profile is correct, you have a 2003 FJR, or a Gen I. Your FJR is not affected by this problem. You don't have the 'ground spiders' in question. This is only a Gen II (2006+) FJR problem.

I need to update my profile. I sold my '03 last September and now have an '08. No problem with the wiring harness yet but I want a plan to fix the spider problem the next time I get into the engine area for maintenance. This (long) thread has been very helpful. I am leaning towards simply cutting off the connectors and crimping or soldering the wires.

 

[JamesK]

[SIZE=14pt]JUST A CAUTION ABOUT ADDING A NEW GROUND WIRE TO SPIDER S3...[/SIZE](The engine management circuit - Spider containing black wires with blue tracer lines near TB)

I just talked to the EE that integrated the Bosch ECM into our vehicle at work and he warned about taking this particular ground back to chassis ground. There shouldn't be a problem bypassing/removing the spider but it is recommended that this circuit finds its ground path SOLELY from the ECM. He said if it was grounded to the chassis, it would probably run okay but certain safety and diagnostic features MIGHT be diabled. He said he wouldn't be surprised if there was an error code stored in memory as a result of adding the wire to the main chassis ground. Maybe one of you guys that have the new ground wire can check for codes (???)

This all made perfect sense to me so I would recommend NOT adding the extra chassis ground wire to S3, since I don't think anyone has reported this one as a problematic one anyway. Better safe than sorry.

For what it's worth, I did a TBS after grounding all the spiders to the chassis, so the bike ran for a total of over 30 mins, with multiple on/off cycles. I also for the very reason you mention and generally because I was messing with the "system" electrics as part of the process of R/R the nose cowl went through all the diAG screens to check for any error codes - there were NO error codes present.

Also, I measured the potential from each spider block, after soldering the wires together but prior to attaching the separate ground wire to the chassis. All of the spiders were at the same potential wrt to ground/chassis up to the resolution of my DMM.

 

[dirttracker30]

With everyone doing their own fix. This will probably cut down on the troubles being had, which in turn will cut down on the reports to the federal saftey site,which in turn will probably hurt the chances of the feds forcing Yamaha into doing something about this problem. Just saying

 

[Road Runner III]

I have well over 10,000 miles on my fix for this by going to the chassis for a good ground with out ANY issues

 

[Fred W]

With everyone doing their own fix. This will probably cut down on the troubles being had, which in turn will cut down on the reports to the federal saftey site,which in turn will probably hurt the chances of the feds forcing Yamaha into doing something about this problem. Just saying

Yeah...

So all of you second gen guys, quit doing preventive fixes until you get a failure and can send a report to NTSB.

That's right, suck it up for the team!

 

[road runner]

[SIZE=14pt]JUST A CAUTION ABOUT ADDING A NEW GROUND WIRE TO SPIDER S3...[/SIZE](The engine management circuit - Spider containing black wires with blue tracer lines near TB)

I just talked to the EE that integrated the Bosch ECM into our vehicle at work and he warned about taking this particular ground back to chassis ground. There shouldn't be a problem bypassing/removing the spider but it is recommended that this circuit finds its ground path SOLELY from the ECM. He said if it was grounded to the chassis, it would probably run okay but certain safety and diagnostic features MIGHT be diabled. He said he wouldn't be surprised if there was an error code stored in memory as a result of adding the wire to the main chassis ground. Maybe one of you guys that have the new ground wire can check for codes (???)

This all made perfect sense to me so I would recommend NOT adding the extra chassis ground wire to S3, since I don't think anyone has reported this one as a problematic one anyway. Better safe than sorry.

I tend to agree with you. That is what I was wondering in my previous post, about what color goes were.

I think the engine management (B/L spider) is 5v, low amps, and no failures.

I think the instramentation or meter (B/W spider) is low amps and no failures.

The (B spiders) do all the lighting, etc., higher amps and are the only ones to fail.

I have heard of something going wrong, (but I can't remember what) when you tie the 5 volt grnd to the 12 volt chassis grnd. In boats with Mercury Smartcraft there have been problems if the static grnd or 12v grnd was tied to the 5v sender grnd.

I think what I'm going to do is eliminate all spiders, solder the wires together, and add a grnd wire to just the B spiders. This may be overkill, but if I ever got stuck 500 miles from home with no lights, because of a B spider connection I'de be pissed.

Didn't Brodie mention finding a male plug to plug into the spider connection ? He was talking about making a 6 into 1 plug similar to what RZ350 was talking about except it would be a new male plug. Being new plug it would have full engagement. This would make it a plug & play fix for someone, as long as the connection doesn't fail. If it was cleaned, greased, then sealed it should work. And you may only need to add it to the one BLACK WIDOW spider.

 

[RZ350]

Drum roll please...

There are a few holes in this yet, but should get you guys going. I found that a connector was missing in the front cowling harness where it had been severed so it was a little slow going through that section of the harness. In the interest of time, I didn't bother to record anything dealing with the ECM, Meter, or ABS, but that is all well documented in the schematic and not a concern of mine anyway. If I have time I will go back and figure out all that. Note that I renumbered S3 and S2 (flipped) in the table and I also went back up to the CAUTION note above and fixed that. I would also add S5 to the CAUTION

Good job road runner, everything feeds through S4 as you noted. The table shows that from the ECM end of the harness, S1 feeds into S3, and S3 feeds into S4. From the front cowling end, S8 feeds into S7, S7 feeds into S6, and finally S6 feeds into S4.

[SIZE=12pt]My guess, at this point, is either S4-Pin3 (Batt connection), S4-Pin4 (total ground feed from rear of the bike), or S4-Pin5 (total ground feed from the front of the bike) are the BURNERS. Of course there could be others, but these 3 terminals are handling the most current in the ground bus yet their spider spade connectors are the same size as the rest.[/SIZE]

If I end up needing to fix anything on my bike before Yamaha does something about this, I still do NOT plan to do anything to S2 or S5 other than maybe improving the spider connections and weatherproofing. I will encourage everyone else to do the same (Brodie - I hope you're listening if you intend to put some hardware together for the other owners). Depending on what we (as a group) find out about the peak current flow through the wires in S1, S3, S4, S6, S7 and S8, extra grounds may be needed at those spiders.

[SIZE=12pt]Somebody owes me a beer! [/SIZE] :lol:

 

[Brodie]

Drum roll please...
<snip>

If I end up needing to fix anything on my bike before Yamaha does something about this, I still do NOT plan to do anything to S2 or S5 other than maybe improving the spider connections and weatherproofing. I will encourage everyone else to do the same (Brodie - I hope you're listening if you intend to put some hardware together for the other owners). Depending on what we (as a group) find out about the peak current flow through the wires in S1, S3, S4, S6, S7 and S8, extra grounds may be needed at those spiders.

RZ350

Yes, I am very interested in the research you gentlemen are doing, I am taking notes. I was going to tie all 8 connectors together with 1 harness and lead it back to the battery negative terminal. With the new findings, it looks more like just tie the high amp. connectors with this method, and just service the other 2 with dielectric grease, seal them off and be done with them. My first post on this subject was a question concerning a ground loop situation brought about by tying all the grounding connectors together. Although it may not produce a true ground loop, it looks like my concerns about causing secondary damage may be valid after all.

I haven't made up my mind which way to go yet, I'm still waiting for supplies with which to build my first prototype. I hope to have something built in a couple of weeks. My goal is to provide something basic enough to fit in for anyone who's willing to lift his fuel tank and remove some tupperware.

Yes I do plan to use the mating female half of the connector in place of the spider and black cover. The 6 pins will join into 1 pigtail shortly after exiting the connector half. I also want to stress that if the Yamaha ground spiders have melted and have damage to the wires, they need to be repaired first before plugging in my harness.

[SIZE=12pt]Somebody owes me a beer! [/SIZE] :lol:

If I ever get to the Right coast, we will have to share one together. :drinks: My treat!

Brodie

 

[RZ350]

[SIZE=14pt]JUST A CAUTION ABOUT ADDING A NEW GROUND WIRE TO SPIDER S2...[/SIZE](The engine management circuit - Spider containing black wires with blue tracer lines near TB)

I just talked to the EE that integrated the Bosch ECM into our vehicle at work and he warned about taking this particular ground back to chassis ground. There shouldn't be a problem bypassing/removing the spider but it is recommended that this circuit finds its ground path SOLELY from the ECM. He said if it was grounded to the chassis, it would probably run okay but certain safety and diagnostic features MIGHT be diabled. He said he wouldn't be surprised if there was an error code stored in memory as a result of adding the wire to the main chassis ground. Maybe one of you guys that have the new ground wire can check for codes (???)

This all made perfect sense to me so I would recommend NOT adding the extra chassis ground wire to S2 (ECM circuit), since I don't think anyone has reported this one as a problematic one anyway. Better safe than sorry.

Now that I have a little more time, I can elaborate on the discussion I had with the EE (electrical engineer) to pass along all the information. He mentioned that on the Bosch ECM we use at work, information is being monitored and used for internal processing on these ground lines. He went on to say that with certain feedback data, the engine can be put into a "limp-home" mode to protect itself by running at a reduced HP, if it is found to be outside of a certain range. Now, the one huge difference I noticed is that the Bosch ECM circuit utilizes a separate ground wire for EACH sensor, while the Yamaha wiring bunches them together and feeds them into the ECM on a single terminal. I have no idea how they could get useful feedback data through that single combined terminal, but I'm sure those Yamaha folks are smarter than me.

[SIZE=14pt]Knowing all this, my caution about NOT adding a direct chassis ground wire to spider S2 (black wires w/blue tracers) still stands and I extend the caution to spider S5 (black wires w/white tracers). Yamaha made an effort to isolate these "ground" wires from the main chassis ground circuit and that is clearly shown in the schematic. I do not know why they did it nor what is happening inside those black boxes, and that is precisely why I would keep it isolated as originally designed. There may be more happening inside there than we can imagine.[/SIZE]

 

[RZ350]

RZ350

[SIZE=12pt]Somebody owes me a beer! [/SIZE] :lol:

If I ever get to the Right coast, we will have to share one together. :drinks: My treat!

Brodie

Careful now - I've been known to ride a long way to get a free beer! :lol:

Seriously, I'm just glad to hear you are considering all aspects of this topic. I'm sure you will end up with a comprehensive and safe fix for the unfortunate riders who encounter this problem. I will try to share as much as possible to support your effort.

 

[RZ350]

[SIZE=12pt]My guess, at this point, is either S4-Pin3 (Batt connection), S4-Pin4 (total ground feed from rear of the bike), or S4-Pin5 (total ground feed from the front of the bike) are the BURNERS. Of course there could be others, but these 3 terminals are handling the most current in the ground bus yet their spider spade connectors are the same size as the rest.[/SIZE]

A couple more points to make on this...

Knowing that the very highest current flowing connection is the S4-Pin3 (Batt), and that the next highest current flowing connections S4-Pin4 and S4-Pin5 are directly below it in the connector body - it is no wonder this connector is overheating on some bikes. Someone should go back through the burnt spider photos and see which corner of the spider is melting to confirm this. The connector pin numbering scheme is listed in the NOTES section at the bottom of my table. Pin 3 is rightmost in the top row and pins 4 and 5 are the middle and rightmost on the bottom row. I think I recall this being the case in the photos I saw.

Remember - I don't have the actual wire gauge sizes figured out yet, so don't say "OMG-they have all that current flowing through that single 16Ga wire!". Maybe someone can look at their bike and help me out. Please note, however, that the RELATIVE size to each other shown in the table is correct (there are 3 distinct sizes going into the different spiders, I labelled them 16,18,and 20 for now). Again, I'm not sure if these would be metric wires or the std gauges I'm familiar with. Any help would be appreciated.

[SIZE=14pt]Lastly, I need to have y'all start giving your best estimates of the peak current for each of the components listed in the "Function" column of the table so I can get it all added up (the spreadsheet is all ready to calculate it!). For instance, "the headlight draws 3 amps". (Its just a quick example - I don't really know what it is!). Please add a large font "CURRENT" at the top of the reply so I can find them easy and give the reasoning behind your answer if you know it. Thanks.[/SIZE]

Even a Gen-I guy might be able to help out with some of this! (hint-hint)

 

[RZ350]

[SIZE=12pt]CURRENT DRAW[/SIZE]

I will start this out with an easy one:

Auxiliary DC Jack (line 52 in the spreadsheet) - Maximum 3 amps (based on user demand and since it is on dedicated fuse)

Okay - now its your turn...

 

[road runner]

Drum roll please...
<snip>

If I end up needing to fix anything on my bike before Yamaha does something about this, I still do NOT plan to do anything to S2 or S5 other than maybe improving the spider connections and weatherproofing. I will encourage everyone else to do the same (Brodie - I hope you're listening if you intend to put some hardware together for the other owners). Depending on what we (as a group) find out about the peak current flow through the wires in S1, S3, S4, S6, S7 and S8, extra grounds may be needed at those spiders.

RZ350

Yes, I am very interested in the research you gentlemen are doing, I am taking notes. I was going to tie all 8 connectors together with 1 harness and lead it back to the battery negative terminal. With the new findings, it looks more like just tie the high amp. connectors with this method, and just service the other 2 with dielectric grease, seal them off and be done with them. My first post on this subject was a question concerning a ground loop situation brought about by tying all the grounding connectors together. Although it may not produce a true ground loop, it looks like my concerns about causing secondary damage may be valid after all.

I haven't made up my mind which way to go yet, I'm still waiting for supplies with which to build my first prototype. I hope to have something built in a couple of weeks. My goal is to provide something basic enough to fit in for anyone who's willing to lift his fuel tank and remove some tupperware.

Yes I do plan to use the mating female half of the connector in place of the spider and black cover. The 6 pins will join into 1 pigtail shortly after exiting the connector half. I also want to stress that if the Yamaha ground spiders have melted and have damage to the wires, they need to be repaired first before plugging in my harness.

[SIZE=12pt]Somebody owes me a beer! [/SIZE] :lol:

If I ever get to the Right coast, we will have to share one together. :drinks: My treat!

Brodie

Brodie

Good to see your watching. I like your idea of the 6-1 plug, but making them all on one main wire back to chassis (in series) will be harder on you and the person installing it. I was thinking of each plug being separate with 2 or 3 feet of oh say 14 ga wire, that could go to chassis. Then a person could do just one, or all 6 B spiders. Most people won't want to take apart the dash pod, and we may only need one of them on the S4 or BLACK WIDOW SPIDER. What do ya think ?

RZ350

I think your on to something about the Bosh sender grnds being all separate and using them for feed back. Being that the Yamaha (B/L) spider or ECU spider is all together I don't see how they are using it for feed back. I think they may be keeping it separate from the others because they don't want any feed back going to ECU. If the B/L spider was tied to the B spiders it all may work fine until there was a short to grnd some were in the bike, then it may fry the ECU by back feeding it. I think the same may apply to the B/W spider, because that meter is very delicate.

No beer for me, but a Captain & Coke is OK. Not all bad is coming from this, hopefully we can all meet someday and go for a ride.

Just more food for thought; A.C.

 

[RadioHowie]

RZ350....where in Fla. are you? I'll buy you that beer!

'Howie

 

[RZ350]

Brodie
Good to see your watching. I like your idea of the 6-1 plug, but making them all on one main wire back to chassis (in series) will be harder on you and the person installing it. I was thinking of each plug being separate with 2 or 3 feet of oh say 14 ga wire, that could go to chassis. Then a person could do just one, or all 6 B spiders. Most people won't want to take apart the dash pod, and we may only need one of them on the S4 or BLACK WIDOW SPIDER. What do ya think ?

RZ350

I think your on to something about the Bosh sender grnds being all separate and using them for feed back. Being that the Yamaha (B/L) spider or ECU spider is all together I don't see how they are using it for feed back. I think they may be keeping it separate from the others because they don't want any feed back going to ECU. If the B/L spider was tied to the B spiders it all may work fine until there was a short to grnd some were in the bike, then it may fry the ECU by back feeding it. I think the same may apply to the B/W spider, because that meter is very delicate.

I agree with the separate ground wire suggestion you have for Brodie's kit - much easier to install and it gives the owner the ability to install one at a time at their leisure. Good one.

As far as your comments to me... I think you may be on to something with the backfeed throught the ECM. At work, we have warnings in our manual to unplug the ECM if you are welding on the vehicle because the current can backfeed and blow them up. Hopefully, no one needs to weld on their bikes but it seems logical a similar backfeed issue could occur with short circuit somewhere and the probability is greater if there are a multitude of ground paths leading into the ECM, instead of just the single main ground (that may be intentional protected against it happening). I don't know.