FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

[ionbeam]

The ECU is a computer, a totally digital animal, it lives and breathes O's and 1's only. The ECU takes in analog signals which can vary from 0 to 14 volts, then runs the voltages through an Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) to make them digestible by the computer. Because of the way the ADC works it likes voltages to be very, very clean, highly regulated 5 VDC and very, very clean, highly regulated 9VDC or 12 VDC. Sensors like the TPS gets 5VDC.

The normal electrical system in all automotive applications is 'dirty', full of little voltage ripples on both ground and power. The ECU contains a DC to DC converter (DC/DC) which separates the main electrical system's power and ground then outputs highly regulated 5VDC/12VDC plus isolated grounds to the various sensors. If you go to someplace like the TPS to make a voltage reading you must use the ground wire going to the TPS for the Digital Multi-Meter's ground because the ground originates from the ECU's DC/DC converter and is isolated from the chassis and battery ground. In fact, if you put one DMM lead on the TPS ground and the other DMM lead on the chassis or battery ground you would likely read a randomly fluctuating voltage which could be several volts.

The grounds associated with the ECU should not tied to chassis ground or battery ground. It looked to me like the '06 schematic showed that wires with dots were related to the ECU and the solid black wires were battery/chassis ground.

As Art notes, the sensor inputs to any computer are not very robust and should be treated with care. In fact, some needle type multi-meters can damage computers, it is always best to use a DMM when troubleshooting ECU related wires.

:lazy:

 

[RZ350]

Thanks for the great explanation ionbeam - still NO chassis grounds on S2 and S5 for me!

 

[RZ350]

RZ350....where in Fla. are you? I'll buy you that beer!
'Howie

JamesK and I are trying to hook up sometime in the near future, maybe in Fort Pierce vicinity. We can keep you in the loop if you're interested?

 

[RadioHowie]

RZ350....where in Fla. are you? I'll buy you that beer!
'Howie

JamesK and I are trying to hook up sometime in the near future, maybe in Fort Pierce vicinity. We can keep you in the loop if you're interested?

Yeah I'm interested. Gotta buy you that beer.

BTW, nice how you side-stepped answering my question about your location. I promise, I'm not a stalker. That's BustanutJoker's job.

 

[RZ350]

RZ350....where in Fla. are you? I'll buy you that beer!
'Howie

JamesK and I are trying to hook up sometime in the near future, maybe in Fort Pierce vicinity. We can keep you in the loop if you're interested?

Yeah I'm interested. Gotta buy you that beer.

BTW, nice how you side-stepped answering my question about your location. I promise, I'm not a stalker. That's BustanutJoker's job.

Nothing personal, just being a little safe on these web forums - you never know who's watching! :devil:

I look forward to making a few FJR buddies and hitting some of the US rallies in the upcoming years. The Triumph Tiger group has been a hoot in past years but they seem to be falling apart somewhat lately. So it's time to move on, I guess, and try something new.

I'll keep an eye out for Bustanut! :blink: (I've been on here long enough to know you're kidding - that guy is hilarious, every time I read his posts, I hear Festus talking in my head)

 

[RadioHowie]

RZ350....where in Fla. are you? I'll buy you that beer!
'Howie

JamesK and I are trying to hook up sometime in the near future, maybe in Fort Pierce vicinity. We can keep you in the loop if you're interested?

Yeah I'm interested. Gotta buy you that beer.

BTW, nice how you side-stepped answering my question about your location. I promise, I'm not a stalker. That's BustanutJoker's job.

Nothing personal, just being a little safe on these web forums - you never know who's watching! :devil:

I look forward to making a few FJR buddies and hitting some of the US rallies in the upcoming years. The Triumph Tiger group has been a hoot in past years but they seem to be falling apart somewhat lately. So it's time to move on, I guess, and try something new.

I'll keep an eye out for Bustanut! :blink: (I've been on here long enough to know you're kidding - that guy is hilarious, every time I read his posts, I hear Festus talking in my head)

I understand. Lots of whackos in here out there. :blum:

Oh, just a heads-up....your sig line is 7 lines long...the forum guideline on signatures is HERE. You need to edit it to six lines or less or it will disappear on you.

 

[RZ350]

Another drum roll (and beer!) please...

Since you guys are too slow, I plugged in some estimates for current draw for each of the components. I know this isn't NORMAL operation, but I assumed everything was running at peak value (i.e. lights blazing, horns sounding, fans blowing, etc.) just to start this out and see if the spreadsheet was calculating everything correctly.

Come to think of it though, I think I know some people that ride like this! :lol:

Here's the total amps running through each ground spider:

S1 = 2.4 A (seems OK)

S3 = 6.5 A (seems OK)

S4 = 32.4 A (Black Widow - OUCH!)

S6 = 24.0 A (pretty bad)

S7 = 14.6 A (maybe needs something)

S8 = 7.8 A (still OK)

Will post table images later for all to scrutinize...

 

[RadioHowie]

Another drum roll (and beer!) please...
Since you guys are too slow, I plugged in some estimates for current draw for each of the components. I know this isn't NORMAL operation, but I assumed everything was running at peak value (i.e. lights blazing, horns sounding, fans blowing, etc.) just to start this out and see if the spreadsheet was calculating everything correctly.

Come to think of it though, I think I know some people that ride like this! :lol:

Here's the total amps running through each ground spider:

S1 = 2.4 A (seems OK)

S3 = 6.5 A (seems OK)

S4 = 32.4 A (Black Widow - OUCH!)

S6 = 24.0 A (pretty bad)

S7 = 14.6 A (maybe needs something)

S8 = 7.8 A (still OK)

Will post table images later for all to scrutinize...

His mortal remains rest in Birmingham, but his soul lives on in Shizuoka.

 

[rfulcher]

His mortal remains rest in Birmingham, but his soul lives on in Shizuoka.

AKA Prince of Darkness, Liberator of the Magic Smoke

 

[JamesK]

I have well over 10,000 miles on my fix for this by going to the chassis for a good ground with out ANY issues

Road Runner III, just to clarify, did you ground ALL the spiders to the chassis, including S2 & S5 that RZ350, Ionbeam et al now think should NOT be grounded to the chassis? I've grounded ALL my spiders to the chassis, so just want to get some "field" data...

 

[BwanaDik]

Another drum roll (and beer!) please...
Since you guys are too slow, I plugged in some estimates for current draw for each of the components. I know this isn't NORMAL operation, but I assumed everything was running at peak value (i.e. lights blazing, horns sounding, fans blowing, etc.) just to start this out and see if the spreadsheet was calculating everything correctly.

Come to think of it though, I think I know some people that ride like this! :lol:

Here's the total amps running through each ground spider:

S1 = 2.4 A (seems OK)

S3 = 6.5 A (seems OK)

S4 = 32.4 A (Black Widow - OUCH!)

S6 = 24.0 A (pretty bad)

S7 = 14.6 A (maybe needs something)

S8 = 7.8 A (still OK)

Will post table images later for all to scrutinize...

Excellent work, thanks a bunch. :clapping: :clapping:

However (always one of those), I think the current is probably too high as the sum exceeds the total output of the alternator. But it sure looks like a good indicator on a percentage basis.

 

[olsonm3915]

However (always one of those), I think the current is probably too high as the sum exceeds the total output of the alternator. But it sure looks like a good indicator on a percentage basis.

I agree that the numbers are probably not reality, but they do illustrate the relative amount of current in each spider that is due to daisy chaining the spiders.

HOWEVER, the alternator output does not determine how much current is returning to the battery. Even with the alternator not working at all many amps will be flowing back to the battery through the grounding spiders if every load is turned on.

 

[RZ350]

Another drum roll (and beer!) please...
Since you guys are too slow, I plugged in some estimates for current draw for each of the components. I know this isn't NORMAL operation, but I assumed everything was running at peak value (i.e. lights blazing, horns sounding, fans blowing, etc.) just to start this out and see if the spreadsheet was calculating everything correctly.

Come to think of it though, I think I know some people that ride like this! :lol:

Here's the total amps running through each ground spider:

S1 = 2.4 A (seems OK)

S3 = 6.5 A (seems OK)

S4 = 32.4 A (Black Widow - OUCH!)

S6 = 24.0 A (pretty bad)

S7 = 14.6 A (maybe needs something)

S8 = 7.8 A (still OK)

Will post table images later for all to scrutinize...

Excellent work, thanks a bunch. :clapping: :clapping:

However (always one of those), I think the current is probably too high as the sum exceeds the total output of the alternator. But it sure looks like a good indicator on a percentage basis.

Agreed.

Take the the horns out of the picture and you are down 6A on spiders S4 and S6 right away (based on horn specs in the manual) which is maybe getting closer to believable.

 

[RZ350]

The much anticipated wiring table with actual current draw numbers...

Just a few notes:

- Remember, this is just a starting point and I NEED YOUR INPUT, so give it to me

- This is at REV level 02, I will bump it as we go

- This chart is based on everything running at maximum current (very unlikely or intermittent at best)

- Wire gauge sizes are estimated

- All light bulb current was calculated based on wattage listed in service manual divided by 12V (I think there is a little more to it than that but it’s a starting point)

- Fuel Pump and Horn max current based on specs listed in manual.

- ECM, Rear Brake Light Switch (relay), Fuel Sender, Side Stand Switch, O2 Sensor “A” Connector, Radiator Fans, RH Bar Switches (Run), Acc Box Solenoid, and Headlight Relay were ESTIMATES. I used 100mA for relay coils (just a guess). Others signaling back to the control module were estimated at 100mA as well (no idea there).

- Full power on Accessory Jack

- Not sure what the last line on S8 is but I think it is the Meter (gauge cluster), I need to research a bit more to determine for sure. This item, of course, is not included.

- No grip warmer installed (I would think, however, that Yamaha would design the system with it included)

- Bright yellow highlighting indicates maximum spider current (the other 5 pins in that spider should add up to this one)

- Pale yellow highlighting indicates feeds from other spiders

Okay - have at it...

 

[JamesK]

RZ, very nice, thank you.

Your numbers even if not yet exact are very representative, since the 3 Ground Spiders your sheet shows as carrying the most load (#4, #6 & #7) are the ones that have been reported failing, with #6 & #7 having one occurrence each so far as I've read.

 

[road runner]

Another drum roll (and beer!) please...
Since you guys are too slow, I plugged in some estimates for current draw for each of the components. I know this isn't NORMAL operation, but I assumed everything was running at peak value (i.e. lights blazing, horns sounding, fans blowing, etc.) just to start this out and see if the spreadsheet was calculating everything correctly.

Come to think of it though, I think I know some people that ride like this! :lol:

Here's the total amps running through each ground spider:

S1 = 2.4 A (seems OK)

S3 = 6.5 A (seems OK)

S4 = 32.4 A (Black Widow - OUCH!)

S6 = 24.0 A (pretty bad)

S7 = 14.6 A (maybe needs something)

S8 = 7.8 A (still OK)

Will post table images later for all to scrutinize...

RZ 350

Nice job . It's nice seeing proof of what we think.

I agree that the total of 32.4 might be a little high, but it may be close ,because the stator output is 40 amps and I think the only things not in this total are the ECU, and Meter which will be low amps anyway. Does this sound possible ?

 

[road runner]

The ECU is a computer, a totally digital animal, it lives and breathes O's and 1's only. The ECU takes in analog signals which can vary from 0 to 14 volts, then runs the voltages through an Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) to make them digestible by the computer. Because of the way the ADC works it likes voltages to be very, very clean, highly regulated 5 VDC and very, very clean, highly regulated 9VDC or 12 VDC. Sensors like the TPS gets 5VDC.
The normal electrical system in all automotive applications is 'dirty', full of little voltage ripples on both ground and power. The ECU contains a DC to DC converter (DC/DC) which separates the main electrical system's power and ground then outputs highly regulated 5VDC/12VDC plus isolated grounds to the various sensors. If you go to someplace like the TPS to make a voltage reading you must use the ground wire going to the TPS for the Digital Multi-Meter's ground because the ground originates from the ECU's DC/DC converter and is isolated from the chassis and battery ground. In fact, if you put one DMM lead on the TPS ground and the other DMM lead on the chassis or battery ground you would likely read a randomly fluctuating voltage which could be several volts.

The grounds associated with the ECU should not tied to chassis ground or battery ground. It looked to me like the '06 schematic showed that wires with dots were related to the ECU and the solid black wires were battery/chassis ground.

As Art notes, the sensor inputs to any computer are not very robust and should be treated with care. In fact, some needle type multi-meters can damage computers, it is always best to use a DMM when troubleshooting ECU related wires.

:lazy:

Allan

That is a great explanation of how an ECU works. You should teach this stuff. :graduated: I think I told you that before.

Art

 

[JamesK]

...The grounds associated with the ECU should not tied to chassis ground or battery ground. It looked to me like the '06 schematic showed that wires with dots were related to the ECU and the solid black wires were battery/chassis ground.

As Art notes, the sensor inputs to any computer are not very robust and should be treated with care. In fact, some needle type multi-meters can damage computers, it is always best to use a DMM when troubleshooting ECU related wires.

:lazy:

Alan, thank you as always for your insights. However, i'm still a little confused. If the S2 & S5 spiders should not to be connected to chassis ground and "might be reading a few volts wrt to the chassis", than how can these wires have the same potential wrt to the chassis ground (before any additional wiring) as any other spider?

 

[RZ350]

However (always one of those), I think the current is probably too high as the sum exceeds the total output of the alternator. But it sure looks like a good indicator on a percentage basis.

I agree that the numbers are probably not reality, but they do illustrate the relative amount of current in each spider that is due to daisy chaining the spiders.

HOWEVER, the alternator output does not determine how much current is returning to the battery. Even with the alternator not working at all many amps will be flowing back to the battery through the grounding spiders if every load is turned on.

That's cool, a "However" topped with a "However"

I agree with both of you. I'm no expert, but I agree the battery would contribute and boost output beyond Alt output if demand called for it. That, of course, would mean that draining instead of charging the battery is occuring. Without any farkles running, Yamaha would have sized the Alt to stay on the "charge" side, with some small margin. Since I'm not hearing anything about poor charging systems (maybe limited though) on these bikes, the draw seems to be below the Alt output. I don't recall seeing anything below about 12.5V on my voltmeter anytime while riding, so it may be just breaking even at times (approaching 40A) but that is a rare occurance.

Is was actually hard not to use "however" in that statement.

 

[RZ350]

RZ, very nice, thank you.Your numbers even if not yet exact are very representative, since the 3 Ground Spiders your sheet shows as carrying the most load (#4, #6 & #7) are the ones that have been reported failing, with #6 & #7 having one occurrence each so far as I've read.

I wasn't sure which other spiders besides S4 were failing but I knew there was some, so thanks for pointing that out.

It's an engineer's dream to have field data correlate with theory or calculations. (I know the rest of you are laughing right now - I can hear you!)