06 unified brake system

[Fencer]

I might like to go a diff way with the brakes.

Rather than disconnect the ABS I would like a farkle to reverse the link. Make is similar to the BMW by activating the rear with a front brake grab. (Anyone?) This would also help with nose dive. I don't have any plans for a track day with the fj. I don't see it a a detriment to the twisties either. How could you go wrong with better stopping power?

 

[Dallara]

Fred said:

As for disabling the ABS, I really can't see how that would possibly benifet anyone and I don't understand the logic for wanting to do it. It makes no sense.
How many times in 100 miliseconds can you modulate the pressure to both your front and rear wheels while your brain is fixated on the vehicle about to hit you?

Anyone who has ridden any amount at all has at one time locked up the rear wheel on a bike. Why would you not want a system that can prevent you from locking up the rear wheel?

Fred, it actually makes a ton of sense to ride without ABS. Really, it does, and you would readily understand why if you have done any motorcycle racing (dirt or pavement) or attended a few track days. There are good reasons why ABS is not used on race bikes. Oddly enough, a skilled rider can stop a bike faster, in a shorter distance, without ABS than he can with ABS. In certain tests this distance (braking from 60 MPH) is as much as 9 feet, or roughly half a car length. ABS also doesn't function worth a flip when the bike is leaned over, and can often get really, really confused if used in a cornering situation. On the other hand, without ABS as rider can trail brake all the way to the apex without a hitch if he knows what he's doing.

Further, ABS doesn't work well at all on gravel or loose surfaces. It gets confused and simply will not allow you to apply the brakes. Ride you FJR with ABS down a nice, straight dirt road sometime, and really try to get on the brakes hard... Then get back ot me with your results.

Second, no ABS modulates the pressure to the bikes multiple time in 100 milliseconds. Not a one of them on the market is that fast. None. 100 times a second is closer to the mark.

I have ridden over 35 years, and this is the first ABS motorcycle I have owned. I have ridden a lot of ABS equipped bikes, though. A ton of ABS equipped Honda's when I was a Honda dealer, a BMW R-1150-RT I rented for just over a week in California last summer (which convinced me I didn't want an R-1150-RT, and a big reason was the lousy brakes), and lots of friends BMW's... and yes, a Gold Wing 1800. I raced for 22 years - dirt and pavement both - and all of it without a lick of ABS. I have never hit a car, nor had a car hit me. I only hit one animal in all that time, but I didn't go down, and ABS wouldn't have made one nano-whit of difference since I never even got the chance to hit the brakes.

Have I locked a wheel before? Sure, and sometimes on purpose, and some of those times it was even the front. You shouldn't be scared of a locked wheel. Just know what to do with it when it happens - wet or dry. You lock wheels all the time when road racing in the rain, but getting 'em rolling again is no different a skill than, say... controlling the rear end sliding on exit, or the front end pushing. I think one of the best things an owner can do when he gets a new bike is to find a deserted parking lot and practice extreme braking - I mean of the panic stop variety. Get a wheel locked, front or rear. Learn what it feels like, and how to deal with it. Practice harder and harder stops until you know your capabilities and the motorcycle's. Do this often, and fastidiously, and you won't be the least bit freaked out when that Buick turns in front of you...

That leads to another problem with current motorcycle ABS systems... Overconfidence. You really do think that the computer handling the ABS can stop you better than anything, right? But before answering that, ask yourself a question... Have you ever, really hammered the front brake as hard as you could? I mean grabbed it with all four fingers and just ****** it back to the handlebar?

Most riders haven't ever... With ABS or without. Chances that if you are not already a HEAVY, HARD front brake user you will NEVER grab that lever for all it's worth. In other words, unless you're already practiced at braking really, really hard then ABS or no you will never hammer the front brake, and so ABS won't even get a chance to *save* you.

There is no computer system made yet that can replace good braking habits and skills. You can rely on ABS to do your braking for you, but how do you know it's better until you learn how hard, and well, you can work the brakes yourself?

I don't want to turn this into an ABS debate, but you asked. Perhaps you'll like traction control when it arrives on motorcycles, but then maybe you have never experienced the sheer joy of sliding a motorcycle on a corner exit... Maybe you will buy an FJR-1300-AE so the computer can do your clutching for you, but then maybe you've never experienced the exhileration of a perfectly fanned clutch producing a perfect start... Maybe you want the control of your riding in the hands of a computer programmer halfway around the world... and that's okay, and I respect you for it.

But I don't want it for myself. I got this far in motorcycling without ABS, and I have ridden with ABS and I don't like it... so I think I can survive the rest of my motorcycling days without it. I hope you can respect that viewpoint.

Just my two centavos... YMMV.

Dallara

 

[Warchild]

No offense, Dale... But in this case, six pistons or eight pistons, doesn't really matter. It's irrelevant.

It may be irrelevant to you. When I squeeze the front lever, I want all 8 pistons moving, not 6. Hey, it's always possibly we have different riding styles, and that's fine. But like I said, new 2006 owners should be able to stop without any issues.

And since the thread has turned into another classic debate that never ends, it has been moved to it's correct home.

 

[afterburn]

Sorry Dallara, but you don't have a clue about when ABS is useful and how a human brain functions under stress. Keep thinking the way you do, putting false faith in your abilities and let's hope you don't end up as a statistic on here.

Yes you should get as much experience, training and practise as possible as that will save you 99% of the time. Thinking however that this will always save you is just plain stupid if you have just a slight clue as to how our brains work in life threatening situations. ABS may or may not save you, but you sure as hell have a better chance.

And if I sound harsh, I apologize but I am getting so friggin sick and tired about all the idiots that think they are better than ABS or will out perform it in real world situations or training will always take over. It does not.

I just hope you (and many like you) will never have to find out how things really work in the real world in real emergency situations.

 

[Rickster]

I'm not responding to the ABS or NOT to ABS it gets debated too often

Im still looking for someone who farkled it or added a a switch.

Anyone done that? I read you can disconnect the speed sensor on one wheel -- can you add a switch to that harness with a SPST or whatever to allow the ABS to be turned off?

 

[ionbeam]

I read you can disconnect the speed sensor on one wheel -- can you add a switch to that harness with a SPST or whatever to allow the ABS to be turned off?

I would need to see the wiring diagram for the '06 to say for sure but I think you would need to switch off power to the ABS and possibly interrupt the ABS Warning light signal (if it is not part of the Meter circuit).

There is basically no way to mess with the speed sensors without setting a warning light. Almost like the system was designed to detect errors :lol:

 

[Dallara]

Wow, Afterburn...

I had no idea you knew so much about me, or my background... Or that anybody could get that worked about someone preferring not to have an ABS braking system.

For me, I'll take the 99% of the time that proper training, extensive practice, good experience, and well developed and disciplined skill sets will get me through - rather than ride like those who never bother to learn such things and simply depend on ABS to save their bacon. In my 35+ years of street riding, and 22+ years of racing (much at the professional level, BTW) I think I have a pretty good idea of how my brain works in "theatening situations", and I would imagine certainly a better grasp of how I react than you do.

I have had literally hundreds upon hundreds of cars pull out or turn in front of me, just as many change lanes to occupy the space I had been in, hundreds of animals bolt into my path, large trucks cross the cinter stripe in twisty sections to eliminate my having any place to go... and on and on, not to mention hige first turn pile-ups or other racers falling right in front of me at over 100 MPH, etc. I guess the question is just how much any one of us has actually lived and worked in those "threatening situations" rather than simply discuss them from an academic point of view.

Let me ask you this, Afterburn...

Did you ride motorcycles prior to them being available with ABS? If so, and if you honestly believe that ABS is the total answer, then how did you survive riding without ABS? How did motorcycling survive without it? How do thousands upon thousands of riders on manufacturers most powerful sport bikes survive without it? How does Valentino Rossi, even when threshold braking from over 180 MPH right down to the apex of a second gear corner, in the wet, survive without it?

Yep, you sounded pretty harsh, and I'm sorry you are so sick and tired of the subject... But if that's true, why read the threads if they are going to upset you so?

I honestly don't much appreciate being called an "*****", particularly by someone who doesn't know one thing about me, and more so one who wasn't even born yet when I was riding, and racing, motorcycles. I had an AMA professional MX license before you were 5 years old, and was a nationally rankd WERA Expert in 4 classes before you were 11. I was also a motorcycle dealer by the time you were 12.

Now, my overly presumptuous, insulting, young friend... Why don't you tell me again about "how things really work in the real world in real emergency situations"?

Dallara

 

[twowheelnut]

I was also a motorcycle by the time you were 12.

Ahhh, that explains it. :rofl:

 

[skyway]

I was also a motorcycle by the time you were 12.

Dallara

Now that I would like to see a picture of? So Dallara is actually an old motorcycle now? Kind of a 2 wheel version of Herby?

I was also a motorcycle by the time you were 12.

Ahhh, that explains it. :rofl:

TWN is a fast typer.

 

[Woodstock]

Did you ride motorcycles prior to them being available with ABS? If so, and if you honestly believe that ABS is the total answer, then how did you survive riding without ABS? How did motorcycling survive without it?

This sounds a lot like people complaining about seat-belts, or child seats, or ...

Just because people survived without them, doesn't mean that they're not a good idea.

How does Valentino Rossi, even when threshold braking from over 180 MPH right down to the apex of a second gear corner, in the wet, survive without it?

I'm sorry, dallara, this is the most idiotic comment yet. The way Rossi rides has absolutely ZERO impact on how real people ride on the streets. In some ways, Rossi has it easier. He's in a controlled environment, sharing the pavement with other experts. Not having to deal with all the different and unknown situations that we have to deal with on the street. What's good for one situation has nothing to do with what's good for another situation, any more than me saying that Rossi's an ***** for not having PHID headlamps because they're invaluable for me.

 

[Dallara]

Man,

I don't what it is about this forum and the penchant for members with lots of posts to feel they can toss about insults with such alacrity and disregard... Things they would never say to anyone's face, but here with the protection and anonymity of the internet they toss epithets about with errant aplomb. Geez...

Woodstock,

The comparison is in no way "idiotic"... That is unless you think the tire development in MOtoGP has nothign to do with your street bike... Or that those nice spar, alloy frames you enjoy on road bikes today have nothing to do to racing... Or that the fuel injection you enjoy is far, far removed from the crucible of racetracks... Or that your street suspension systems don't benefit from racing development.

Simple point of fact it this - Traction control is used in MotoGP, and to great effect, especially in the wet. If ABS offered even the chance of a slight advantage, particularly in the wet, of making the riders safer, less likely to crash even once, or of decreasing lap times it would be used. It's not.

If you think Rossi, or even a local expert in a road racing club has it easier than you do on the street, then I would have to guess that you have never been out on a road race track with 20 or 30 other guys trying to get the same spot in the first corner... Or had some rider fall right in front of you at over 100 MPH... Or rode your hour-plus stint in a 6-hour endurance race, in a driving rainstorm where you couldn't keep your visor clear, and there was so much standing water on the track that it ws running like rivers in sections - and you still had to pick your way through riders and curtains of spray while trying to set fast lap... There are plenty of "unknown situations" on a race track, and they come at you at speeds far in excess of what you ever see on the street. You are also trying to balance the bike on its edge each and every lap, rain or shine, and doing so in a crowd lots of the time.

Like I said, I am not telling you not to like ABS, or even want ABS... If you like it, more power to ya'! Have a big time with it.

OTOH, if I don't like it, don't want it, and prefer to do my braking on my own, what skin is it off your nose?

I suppose I could call you "idiotic" for forgetting that almost every single major power, handling, and yes, braking too, advancement you enjoy today on your bike came from the racing you discount as not being comparable to PHID lights, but I won't. I suppose I coould label you with that "idiotic" for apparently knowing so little about participating in races, or what conditions and situations often present themselves on a racetrack in a crowd, but I won't do that either. There's no need. It's pointless and it's juvenile in the extreme.

However, maybe if you did a bit more extensive research on motorcycle ABS you might understand.

Dallara

 

[afterburn]

Well apparently you're the expert and I'm the rookie, so nothing I say will change your mind. Suffice to say track time or racing is absolutely not comperable with street riding in any way.

And oh, if you would be so kind to show me where I said ABS was a replacement for training and experience, please show me as I was under the impression of suggesting the opposite.

 

[skyway]

Man,
I don't what it is about this forum and the penchant for members with lots of posts to feel they can toss about insults with such alacrity and disregard... Things they would never say to anyone's face, but here with the protection and anonymity of the internet they toss epithets about with errant aplomb. Geez...

Dallara

:lol:

Your a good comedian Dallara, keep it up please. I'm enjoying your little rants.

Since your a relative FNG here, maybe you haven't seen this picture before. I suggest you add it to your library to pass on to future FNG's who like you, start shooting their mouth off to their new audience.

ABS vs non ABS vs ABS vs tires vs braking vs no.................... :sleepysmileyanim:

 

[Dallara]

Maybe you're right, Skyway...

But being a FOG here on this board doesn't automatically make anybody *right*, or more intelligent, or more insightful, etc. than anybody else... Much less FNG's, as you call 'em.

I know, from personal experience, that riding on racetracks (even moto-cross, flat track, and hare scrambles courses, not to mention road racing) has far more to do with riding on the street than those that haven't done it realize. A whole lot more. Every lap of every race track I ever rode has made me a much better street rider than those street miles prior.

But, hey... What do I know, right? I haven't been a member here on this FJR board so I simply must be wrong, eh?

No doubt many here believe this is the be-all, end-all repository of combined knowledge in the known universe... :lol2:

:winksmiley02: :lazy: :lazy: :lazy: :lazy: :lazy: :lazy:

I gotta' remember that, I guess. :tease:

Dallara

 

[Powerman]

I consider myself a pretty experienced rider, But.....

I did once lock up my rear in a street panic situation on my CBR, never thought I would, but I did!

Road racing skills can be applicable to the street, but they are different situations.

I want full control of my brakes, the linked brakes bother me. Maybe on a touring bike they are alright,

the GL1800 doesn't feel too bad. Other bikes have driven me crazy. I will wait to see how the 06 FJR works out. The BMW ABS also drives me crazy.

Maybe a simple linked braking system with an adjustable porportioning valve would be the ticket.

I like the race car system set up like that, it makes threshold braking easier.

 

[Woodstock]

ok, so perhaps "idiotic" was a bit too strong. I appoligize for that.

My point, though, wasnt' that I disagree that race technology has made it's way to street bikes, and made street bikes better. Of course it has.

However, you cannot say that proves the converse. In other words, just because something doesn't work on the track for whatever reason does not prove that it's not useful on the street. Turn signals might be an example. In other words, just because ABS isn't useful on the track, says nothing about whether it's better to have on street bikes.

I also didn't say that track racing is easier. I said "in some ways", meaning that there exist some dangers that Rossi (or any racer) simply doesn't have to deal with. Some of those dangers are what makes some tecnologies make a better street bike. I consider headlamps, turn signals, and, yes, ABS (and maybe even LBS), among those.

 

[skyway]

Maybe you're right, Skyway...
But being a FOG here on this board doesn't automatically make anybody *right*, or more intelligent, or more insightful, etc. than anybody else... Much less FNG's, as you call 'em.

I know, from personal experience, that riding on racetracks (even moto-cross, flat track, and hare scrambles courses, not to mention road racing) has far more to do with riding on the street than those that haven't done it realize. A whole lot more. Every lap of every race track I ever rode has made me a much better street rider than those street miles prior.

But, hey... What do I know, right? I haven't been a member here on this FJR board so I simply must be wrong, eh?

No doubt many here believe this is the be-all, end-all repository of combined knowledge in the known universe... :lol2:

:winksmiley02: :lazy: :lazy: :lazy: :lazy: :lazy: :lazy:

I gotta' remember that, I guess. :tease:

Dallara

Dallara,

You have the admin here to thank for your FNG status, I never take credit from others.

The point I was trying to make to you (not sure how much of it actually sunk in, cause your still on the defence around here with comments you disagree with. Nobody really cares BTW) is that there are many ways to share a wealth of information with others.

There's a BIG sandbox here, plenty big enough for all members to share ideas and points of view. If you learn to execute your replies with a little less venom, you will find that there are some truly great people who hang out here, FNG or FOG, who you WILL learn something from. The peeps here are top shelf for sure. Stick around long enough and you'll find out for yourself.

This thread is already in its perfect home NEPRT, so I'm moving on in an effort to save valuable bandwidth. :superman:

 

[SkooterG]

Ionbeam,
You are 100% correct when discussing automotive ABS systems, but literally every single motorcycle ABS system currently produced also employ multi-axis accelerometers for ABS triggering, too...

And most are set to "engage a bit early" relative to what the slip angle of the tire is (and this is from a development engineer for Honda). Why is a bit of a mystery to me, but apparently it is actually for liability reasons. They do, in fact, use accelerometer sensor data, along with differential wheel and engine speed sensor data, to determine not only slip angle, but decel rate. Evidently, according to my sources, the manufacturers believe that if their ABS systems were allowed to brake as hard as the tires and bikes are capable of that it would be so abrupt and disorienting to some riders that they would release the brakes, or something else untoward - hence the desire to keep braking at or about 1-G.

If you want to see just how early ABS on most bikes does engage, grab a friend's BMW R-1150-GS or R-1200-GS. On those you can switch ABS off (though not the damnable BMW servo-assist). Hammer the brakes on both settings and see just how much waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before lock-up the ABS engages.

Your friend at GM wouldn't be named Barry, would it?

FJRFencer...

I think that Yamaha chooses their linked braking approach aiming at the lowest common denominator rider - i.e. one who doesn't use the front brake and only uses the rear pedal. With Yamaha's set-up those riders at least get some front brake, which of course we all know is far more effective that the rear. BMW has two systems, and they are used on different models. One operates where the front and rear are always linked, pedal and lever both work all the brakes to some degree. The other is split just as you describe.

Thanks!

Dallara

You have the service manual for the 06 FJR. Find where it says anything about an accelerometer in regards to the ABS system.

I can tell you the service manual for the 04-05 say nothing about accelerometers, while going quite in depth on slip angle/ratio, and comparing front and rear wheel speed to vehicle *true* speed.

*Sigh* I really don't want to get into the ABS vs. non-ABS debate, but I did do my research, and for the real world, it's a great thing. Sorry, I am not buying your Ricky Racer argument.

Try reading the follwing article. A bit dated, but I feel still applicable: CLICKY HERE

 

[twowheelnut]

*Snigger*

 

[Rickster]

Aside from the dulldrom of arguing the merits of ABS --

Can the '06 be farkled with a switch to turn it ON/OFF from the cockpit?

Does anyone have a wiring diagram and understanding of the '06 to figure if it can be done?

-----------------------

Regarding the comment about ABS and accelerometers -- from what I read, the system calculates 'slip' based on:

Chassis Speed - Wheel Speed

Slip Ratio = ----------------------------------- X 100

Wheel Speed

(id est 100% = wheel lock, and is calculated independently for each wheel.

I don't know how chassis speed is calculated, but it is also based on wheel speed, and I assume it's the MAX(Front Wheel Speed, Rear Wheel Speed).

Based on the "Slip Ratio", there is an algorithm or lookup table to determine braking modulation (not sure -- just figure that's how it works)