06 unified brake system

[Fencer]

I might like to go a diff way with the brakes.
Rather than disconnect the ABS I would like a farkle to reverse the link. Make is similar to the BMW by activating the rear with a front brake grab. (Anyone?) This would also help with nose dive. I don't have any plans for a track day with the fj. I don't see it a a detriment to the twisties either. How could you go wrong with better stopping power?

PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE

DAMN :angry2:

I go work in the yard for my wife for Mothers Day doing what she wants and ya'll turn this into another Dallera vs the Forum thread. He don't like ABS OK? I have ridden bikes with/ without, I like em OK?

Lets Rondney King this thing and "just get along"

This was a tech thread on linking the ABS not a "do I like em" thread. So back to the IDEA of the thread. Is anyone here knowledgable enough to create my above suggestion or Rhuchler on/off switch. Or a toggle for both (best of all worlds) Ionbeam said he may be able to help. Dallara, can you send him what he needs?

 

[SkooterG]

Yeah, but......but............

heeeeeeeeee started it...........

:tease:

 

[Dallara]

SkooterG,

Let's work back to front, shall we?

Yes, I have read Michael Kneebone's tired ol' article many, many times... Even back when it was new all teh way back in 1992. It gets brought out any time there is any discussion of ABS. Of course, ABS systems have certainly advanced since then, but...

Braking systems, suspensions, chassis, and most of all tires... have all improved at actually greater rates than the current, relatively simple and primitive (compared to other vehicle ABS systems) motorcycle ABS systems. That's one of the problems with the current state-of-the-art in ABS - there are just not enough economies of scale to bring the price of truly leading edge ABS systems down to where motorcycle buyers will pay for them. There are automotive systems now that can adjust for lateral slip angle so one can brake brutally hard right in the middle of the corner, and the current high-end automotive systems are so fast that they no longer even pump up the pedal and pulsate to let you know they've even had to actuate.

But these systems appear on Bentley's, Ferrari's, and the like... Not on your family Ford 500's.

That's the same problem with motorcycle ABS. Only the least expensive, and least effective, appear on motorcycles because riders won't pay the cost for the more advanced systems and the manufacturers know it. Motorcycles with ABS are a tiny, tiny fraction of the number of bikes sold out there worldwide, and the numbers just don't justify more advanced systems.

But more importantly, if you want to use Kneebone's article to make a case for ABS, is to note that good riders stopped better than ABS, and by as much as 9 feet... That's half a car length.

Here's an interesting page about ABS, and with much more current data...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

One of the more interesting things in this article is:

It is worth noting that the heavier a vehicle is, the more it will benefit from ABS. This is particularly true of vehicles with less-sophisticated hydraulic braking systems where fine control is not as easy as with the more developed braking systems. Conversely, lighter vehicles, especially sports cars with highly-developed braking systems without ABS can outbrake comparable vehicles even with ABS.

Motorcycles are pretty light, especially compared to cars, and they have very highly developed non-ABS braking systems, and they are capable of extremely fine braking control (even ot the point of controlling each wheel and each retardation rate separately - something even the best sports cars don't do).

Now, as for whether or not Yamaha's ABS system on the FJR's has an accelerometer or not, well... First off, if it does have one, like I believe it does, it would be in the ECU - not a separate component like the wheel speed sensors. Other evidence points to motorycle systems all having accelrometers - i.e. since it is possible to brake each wheel separately relying on the differential speed of the two wheel sensors would not be a reliable means of judging the rate of change.

The 2006 Service Manual does have some statments that do, indeed, suggest there is an acclerometer present, like this one

OUTLINE OF THE ABS1. The Yamaha ABS (anti-lock brake system) features an electronic control system, which acts on the

front and rear brakes independently. However, one set of pistons in the right front brake caliper is

operated together with the rear brake and this set of pistons is operated only if the force used to depress

the brake pedal exceeds a preset level.

Just note from this part above where it says that it "acts on the front and rear brakes independently". which of course it does, but just follow along here...

It goes on to define terms that will be used in the description of the system:

Useful terms• Wheel speed:

The rotation speed of the front and rear wheels.

• Chassis speed:

The speed of the chassis.

When the brakes are applied, wheel speed and chassis speed are reduced. However, the chassis

travels forward by its inertia even though the wheel speed is reduced.

• Brake force:

The force applied by braking to reduce the wheel speed.

• Wheel lock:

A condition that occurs when the rotation of one or both of the wheels has stopped, but the vehicle

continues to travel.

• Side force:

The force on the tires which supports the vehicle when cornering.

• Slip ratio:

When the brakes are applied, slipping occurs between the tires and the road surface. This causes a

difference between the wheel speed and the chassis speed.

Slip ratio is the value that shows the rate of wheel slippage and is defined by the following formula.

0%: There is no slipping between the wheel and the road surface. The chassis speed is equal to the

wheel speed.

100%: The wheel speed is “0”, but the chassis is moving (i.e., wheel lock).

Now note that above they refer to "chassis speed"... Since each wheel can be braked independently, wheel sensor speed cannot be a reliable method for determining chassis speed, even with specific algorithms and look-up tables. Accelerometers are cheap and reliable, and they can detemine rate of change in chassis speed quite readily, and directly, not empirically.

Now, in the end, do FJR have acclerometers? I don't know for sure. Yamaha would have to answer that. I can only say that the system *feels* like other systems I have used that *do* have accelerometers and use deceleration G's to trigger ABS threshold. But even if it doesn't have an accelerometer, given the description in the service manual of how it operates - i.e. comparing chassis speed to wheel speed to try and determine slip ratio - then it is actually trying to calculate deceleration G's anyway... And if it does use algorithms and look-up tables to make its calculations then it could still limit braking to no more than 1-G.

Just try and answer this one questions for me?

If all the data comes from the wheel speed sensors, and yet the front and rear brakes can be applied to produced different wheel speed deceleration rates... What is determining chassis speed, and what would be the cheapest and easiest way to do it?

Now, let me touch on something one more time...

If you like ABS, and want it on your motorcycle, I think that's great. I have no problem with you having it. If it makes you feel more comfortable and capable in more situations, I think that's great, too. I want you to have it, because it is what you want. I respect your right to choose, and your choice, too.

I simply don't like ABS as it is currently developed and implemented on motorcycles, nor do I like linked brakes. If the truly sophisticated systems that some automotive companies employ on their higher end vehicles ever make it to motorcycles I might change my mind, but right this moment in time I honestly feel that the current ABS systems more get in my way than anything else.

That is my choice, and I would like to think you would respect my right to choose. I chose an FJR because I thought I could live with the trade-off of having ABS if for some reason I could not disable it. De-linking the brakes is a no-brainer to do. Just need to get a hose or two made, etc.

I will continue to buy bikes without ABS... I think the next two bikes in my garage will be a used beater of a Kawasaki KLR-650 so I can ride down the national seashore down here to Port Mansfield, which I used to do a lot... And a new Ducati HyperMotard when they become available. Am I "idiotic" because neither of those bikes has ABS?

I don't think so... YMMV, of course.

Thanks!

Dallara

 

[afterburn]

Dallara,

But more importantly, if you want to use Kneebone's article to make a case for ABS, is to note that good riders stopped better than ABS, and by as much as 9 feet... That's half a car length.

It's exactly these kinds of commends that make me so tired of these discussion, as it is simply not true. Sure it in a controlled experiment where everybody tries to stop as quickly as possible on a known section of road, but how many times do you encounter that situation in the real world? I don't.

Basically, our human brain has 3 modus operandi. I will go through all 3.

1) Human brain - normal situation: this is how we work, live and ride all the time. It's the slowest of the three, but it allows us to think and apply rationale to situations. If a child would step on the road in front of you, you would check your mirrors, apply the brakes, shift down and come to a normal stop to let the kid get out of the way. We have no use for ABS here.

2) Rat brain - stress situation: this part of our brain is a lot faster than our normal brain, but at the cost of rational thinking and consious control. However, our rat brain is very good at applying learned knowledge, so good training and experience will take over and do the right things. Taken the example of the child stepping in front: you may not check your mirrors before you brake, but you brake hard and modulate if nessessary to get to the fastest stop possible. You do all the things you have trained for. You really don't need ABS for these situations either. You do however, need proper and continued training to condition your brain to do the right things.

3) Reptile brain - life preservation mode: this part of our brain is extremely fast, however it does not think and has no knowledge of any training or experience. This part does not care about anything except to give a reaction to an immediate life threatening situation. To go back to the kid, in this mode you don't care if you run over the kid, if you kill the kid or not, it might as well not excist. All you care about is avoid damage to yourself. You grab a handful of whatever is available, but there is no control. This is where ABS can save your ***. Since you have no control of yourself, the ABS can modulate for you and possibly avoid a crash.

Make no mistake, regardless of training or experience everybody can go in either mode depending on the situation. The only thing training can do, is hopefully avoid going into the 3rd mode as late as possible. As I said before, ABS is not a substitute for training. Also, things like road conditions, time of day, physical fitness, mental fitness and lots more can influence how we behave and react to situations. Some of these can be saved by ABS. It is all fine when you can see the road, are 100% focussed and what not, but who hasn't been on the bike in the middle of the night, in a thunderstorm, tired, cold and more focussed on your *** hurting or the desire to be home than the road? I think everybody has been in situations where you rationally should stop and do something else, but kept riding. ABS can wake you up and save your butt before you crash due to diminished focus and attention.

And no, ABS should never be substitute for training, nor should one change their riding habits because of a dependance on electronics. ABS should be a last resort for when you as a rider **** up and do the wrong thing. Maybe it will save you, maybe it will not. But at least you have an extra chance. And any extra chance improves the odds of getting out alive.

 

[FJRski]

There's one question no amount of discussion can answer for me.

Several years ago, I came down a hill towards a busy intersection at a pretty good clip on a dark night, many hours after a mid-day thunderstorm. I knew there was a stop sign at the bottom of the hill, but I wasn't expecting the road to be covered with wet leaves as I came around the corner. You never know, do you? I managed to bring my old NON-ABS 750 to a thrilling, but safe stop without going down. Yes, I was proud of my skill, and lucky to boot, it doesn't always work out that way.

Would ABS have made it easier for me to stop?

ABS definately would not have allowed me to brake the same way.

Still and all, I feel good about having ABS. Unless you are a skilled, polished and practiced rider, I think ABS tips the scales in your favor. I'll probably come to my own conclusion some dark rainy night. I think it's all a matter of situation-dependant personal preference.

 

[Fencer]

I might like to go a diff way with the brakes.

Rather than disconnect the ABS I would like a farkle to reverse the link. Make is similar to the BMW by activating the rear with a front brake grab. (Anyone?) This would also help with nose dive. I don't have any plans for a track day with the fj. I don't see it a a detriment to the twisties either. How could you go wrong with better stopping power?

PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE

DAMN :angry2:

I go work in the yard for my wife for Mothers Day doing what she wants and ya'll turn this into another Dallera vs the Forum thread. He don't like ABS OK? I have ridden bikes with/ without, I like em OK?

Lets Rondney King this thing and "just get along"

This was a tech thread on linking the ABS not a "do I like em" thread. So back to the IDEA of the thread. Is anyone here knowledgable enough to create my above suggestion or Rhuchler on/off switch. Or a toggle for both (best of all worlds) Ionbeam said he may be able to help. Dallara, can you send him what he needs?

Dallara, ARE YOU NOT READING MY POST? THIS IS MY THREAD! Again not a like or dislike thread. Skooter was some what apologetic in his follow-up and the you kept the same **** going. If this crap continues I am going to make a Dallara vs the forum thread so every one can express their well thought out and statistically inhanced *******... I mean opinion.

Since this is my thread and it has been hijacked anyway. I will express mine.

1 - Respect at least mine is EARNED not given ( I don't give a damn about age or experience)

I respect both older and younger people than myself both with more and less experience than myself in a vast number of areas. Mostly based on personality and how the conduct themselves.

2 - Older does not mean better. There is probably no ones knowledge I value more than my father's, If I ask him a tech question on computers if I need help (he's been doing it for 37 years so he ought to know his stuff right?) He may give me a 10 year old fix. will it work sometimes but mostly not applicable to todays environment so I call a younger buddy of mine more up to date on todays software.

3 Just because something has worked for the last 40 years doesn't mean its good today (See K-mart, Macy's etc

Now can we focus on the technical aspect of the thread? Please post your dislike thoughts on TWN's thread.

 

[Dallara]

My apologies, FJRFencer,

I thought all you questions had been addressed. You inquired about how the 2006 FJR brake system worked, and replies came that told you of their function - i.e. Rear pedal accuates one set of pistons on the front right caliper, whereas applying front brake did not actuate any rear brake. You asked how BMW's systems' operated and I responded describing both their partially linked ABS system and fully linked Integral system. You asked if Yamaha's system could be converted to something similar to BMW's (front lever actuates some rear brake along with front), and I thought it was made apparent that that would not be a simple task.

It was also clear that it would be quite easy to use a switch to disable the two wheel speed sensors on the FJR, and thereby disabling the ABS, but it would incur getting the ABS fault light.

What were the other questions?

Again, I am sorry if you felt your thread was hi-jacked. I guess I missed the part where "yeah, but he started it..." was somehow "somewhat apologetic"... But you made your point. I will refrain from further comments in this thread.

Dallara

 

[SkooterG]

I will refrain from further comments in this thread.
Dallara

Actions speak louder than words.

:****:

:tease:

D'oh! There I go again. Baaaad SkooterG! Baaaaaaad!

 

[Fencer]

[ Baaaad SkooterG! Baaaaaaad!

Yes bad Skooter :headbonk: ( I was looking for a nun with a ruler but I guess this will do)

-----------------------------------------------

You asked if Yamaha's system could be converted to something similar to BMW's (front lever actuates some rear brake along with front), and I thought it was made apparent that that would not be a simple task.

-----------------------------------------------

Hard yes but can it be done? ( I can dig a hole in solid rock, Can you? and no it aint easy) Within reason?

It occured to me that if the rear worked on the same sensor as the front tire it would not be possible to link them front to back. There has to be two separate sensors for each wheel for the rear to link to the front because both wheels are stopping at diff speeds.

WTF, I'll just extend the cable from my foot brake and duct tape it around my hand brake. That way I'll get all 8 pistons on the front and the rear ones as well and then low side it under an 18 wheeler :crazy:

The other question was to supply a wiring diagram to IONBEAM to mfg an on/off toggle

 

[ionbeam]

The other question was to supply a wiring diagram to IONBEAM to mfg an on/off toggle

Can't switch opinions :crazy: but with a schematic, if there is a way switch the ABS on/off I would hope/expect to find it. Then there is Fred-H that has done really well hacking the '06 systems already.

 

[Rickster]

I believe the following would work (but I don't have a schematic -- so someone that has one, or access to one may be able to help...

1) Cut the wire in the front cowl that powers the ABS Warning light, and splice in enough wire to get to a DPDT switch.

2) Connect one side of the DPDT to connect this cut wire (now the warning light is switchable)

3) Either cut/splice power to the ABS ECU Box, or Cut/Splice into the wheel speed sensors, and splice it into the other half of the DPDT switch (may also require a relay based on power consumption of the ABS ECU.

What am I thinking -- conceptually, kill the ABS, and disable the warning lamp at the same time. When you switch the other way, the ABS will operate, and the warning light is re-enabled.

NOW -- anyone out there with a schematic? I thought Dallara had access -- so gimme some wire numbers...

Also -- unsure of the 'best' way to kill the abs circuit and not affect anything else except the warning light..

Any help out there? or is there just more BS relative to the merits of computer programmer skills in mechanically assisting the brakes versus the riders ability to have more skill than the computer programmer/engineer?

 

[Dallara]

I already posted complete wiring diagrams in another thread, but appernetly those were not in high enough resolution.

Warchild said he had the ability (which I don't with PDF's) to post those in higher resolutions, and that he would be trying to get his hands on a PDF 2006 manual just like mine.

I did post the complete wiring schmantics for both the 2006 A and AE at the highest resolution the programs I had available could muster.

Sorry they didn't measure up.

Dallara.

 

[Fred H.]

Well, as long as this is a pointless and recuring thread, then let me just say this.

Yea, I have heard all about the so called "Expert Motorcycle Riders" and Racers who say they can stop faster without ABS, on dry pavement under perfect conditions. However, this does not apply to street riding, and MY OPINION is that anyone who thinks he is better off without ABS on the street is only kidding themselves.

It only takes one spot of antifreeze or oil or wet leaves to put you on your butt. Maybe you can brake a few feet shorter under perfect conditions, but how many times when you need to stop quickly, are the conditions perfect? Do you ever ride in the rain? Do you ever cross intersections with oil and grime in them? Do you ever ride on pavement with slick tar spots or dusty roads?

And yes, I have ridden many track days and in dirt and I know all about locking and sliding the rear wheel. I have crossed the US four times in the past three years and have worn out more motorcycles than I can count. I take the MSF course every couple years and attend track days and practice hard braking, even two-up, and read every bit of info on riding I can get my hands on. But I don't kid myself that I am an "expert rider" and don't need every benifit that modern technology can provide me. ABS is just one more tool available to me and I am glad it is there. The day I know it all and stop learning new techniques will probably be the last day I ride.

I know a guy who thinks you should never use the horn on a motorcycle, as you should be able to avoid situations instead of reacting to them. I don't understand the concept of having an available tool to use to make you safer when you ride, and then not wanting to use it. I use every tool available to me that I have. Be it a full face helmet and bright colored riding gear with armor, or good tires, or a loud horn and bright lights, or ABS. I never EVERY SINGLE advantage I can give myself to stay alive out there, and I suspect you do too.

 

[skyway]

I know a guy who thinks you should never use the horn on a motorcycle, as you should be able to avoid situations instead of reacting to them.

Tell that to the countless dumb *** cagers I have given free Magnum Blaster demonstrations to.

The Blaster horns get previously unobtainable attention RIGHT NOW, and have saved a potentially bad situation from getting much worse.

 

[afterburn]

Amen to that!

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

The on-going brake debate -- time was, when motorcycles hardly had brakes; now, it appears they have too much?

So..., it appears there are two camps: One side offers data (hard facts, test results, etc.); while the other offers anecdotal hypotheticals. Who ya' gonna' believe? Certainly not your own lying eyes.... Better/safer to trust the god of technology...? One can, of course, win just by vehement force of argument -- might makes right. :huh:

 

[Fred H.]

So..., it appears there are two camps: One side offers data (hard facts, test results, etc.); while the other offers anecdotal hypotheticals. Who ya' gonna' believe?

I remember back in the 60's when guys didn't want to wear seat belts, and used the old argument of "I would rather be thrown free in an accident". It really is nothing more than a rationalization and sounds very similar to the auguments I hear for why folks don't want ABS and think they can out brake a computer.

Sure, maybe they can on a dry racetrack under controlled circumstances when they are anticipating a max brake application, but can they do it day in and day out wet or dry in loose pavement or a dusty road or when cell-phone-Suzy pulls out in front of them and the circumstances are not so controlled?

 

[Rickster]

I already posted complete wiring diagrams in another thread, but appernetly those were not in high enough resolution.
Warchild said he had the ability (which I don't with PDF's) to post those in higher resolutions, and that he would be trying to get his hands on a PDF 2006 manual just like mine.

I did post the complete wiring schmantics for both the 2006 A and AE at the highest resolution the programs I had available could muster.

Sorry they didn't measure up.

Dallara.

Never really complained on this forum before -- but after all the ranting Dallara did -- the best you can do is tell us that you posted some fuzzy pic of the schematic?

If you have the schematics coupled with your posted knowledge and experience -- simply let me know what wires to open to safely disable the ABS circuit, and disable the ABS warning light on the dash. With your

knowledge and experience in motorcycles -- this should not be difficult.

If that's not possible to figure out with the service manual/schematics -- it certainly puts your rants in perspective for me.

 

[ionbeam]

Pull the ABS fuse, remove the bulb from the ABS warning light, done. Well, maybe not, be sure to remove all those embarrassing ABS stickers that proclaim you don't know how to ride a motorcycle. This also prevents you from having to warn anyone that may ride your FJR that it is not really an ABS equipped machine.

:lol: :lol:

 

[Rickster]

Thanks!!!! that will work!