09 FJR--two-up floppiness?

[blakmambo]

For what might be the second time in the roughly three years of ownership I had a significant occurrence of what I call the "two-up flop" on the FJR, referring to low speed handling while trying to make turns or u-turns with a passenger, the FJR seems to want to over-flop rather quickly in comparison to other sport-tour bikes I've ridden, loaded and/or two-up, requiring a major foot "dab" to prevent the bike from going fully, "laterally recumbent" and not seeming to match the push on the bar, but go beyond, etc.

The recent edition involved a left turn from full stop, while pedestrians were crossing the intended pathway . . . then, a "homeless-looking" guy kind of wandered up to the corner, started, then hesitated . . . then seemed to look to the sky before making his "decision" . . . so I initiated the turn needing to get 90 degrees ASAP, but the guy seemed to start walking so I couldn't smoothly keep the gas on to stabilize the bike . . . and, rather than holding the angle the FJR kept dropping over to the left . . . had to do the foot plant to bounce the bike along and had to "bully" the homeless guy with the wackiness of the bike's behavior so that I could keep rolling otherwise would have dumped it rather spectacularly in front of a large Sunday crowd on the local boulevard.

Previous happenstance was on a return from an overnighter, loaded up and two-up, had to sort of make a U-ie out of a gas station, followed by another U-ie to hit the freeway on-ramp, slow speed, right hand turn this time, and that also brought on a near dump. I did these similar maneuvers on a rented 08 Konk 14 and once that bike is moving ever so slightly it handles in a very predictable manner and doing the U-ie deal loaded up didn't bring this "floppiness."

Partly in this story is the presence of a "semi-bored pillion" who is "just along for the ride" and isn't an "actively engaged" pillion, i.e., doing her best in trying to "counter-balance" the turn-in on slow speed turns . . . it's just seen like going through other turns, she's leaning in with the bike, however that happens to work out. In typical fashion in long term relationships, instructions from the pilot are given short-shrift; but, one question is, is there something that the pillion could do during slow speed turns like dropping the outside foot and hanging it, which might work to counter-weight the bike?

We have ridden a number of different bikes, two-up, loaded over the last 30+ years of riding, and I haven't noticed this "quick floppiness" tendency to the degree of speed that it seems to happen with the FJR. Much more than any of the other bikes it does "go where you look, ASAP" so there is no lolly-gagging looking around at the scenery on this bike, but, the question is--is there something in the "rake/trail" numbers or something in the engineering that is eliciting "quick flop from a standing stop" behavior?? It does happen in fair regularity when I return from rides in that I have to do a slow turn into an alleyway, then hard left passed my storage trailer to the pull in spot . . . the pillion is usually non-attentive and the "landings" are generally "un-graceful" in execution.

Is this a "known issue" and part of the deal for the "sporty-sport-tour" benefits, or I have to go all drill sergeant on the pillion?? With other more "tour-sport-tour" bikes I've been able to "ride around" the inattentive pillion a little more easily . . . FJR seems to cast a light on the issue and bring out the problems rather than soothe them over, and maybe suggests it's mission is that it really is a "one-up" machine in nature and wants to bronco buck off the side-kick????

Mambo

 

[SLK50]

My FJR is the best two-up bike Ive ever owned.

This coming from a guy thats spent 13 seasons on Gold Wings.

Part of the reason was switching to a 190/55 rear tire and

installing stiffer springs, front and rear.

My first thought, although you didnt mention weights,

is that your rear springing is too soft.

Keeping the rear-end up is paramount to good, neutral handling.

 

[Uncle Hud]

The FJR is an excellent bike; two-up or single. She is VERY top-heavy, however, and will drop like a rock at slow speeds. Please read the (many) other threads about dropping FJRs, like this one, and this one, and this one, and ..... you get the idea.

Bad form to blame it on the pillion, as most of us have dropped our bikes while riding one-up.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Feather the throttle and clutch. Maybe a tire issue if you haven't had the same issue on other similar types of bikes. Also, remember, if you just filled the tank, you have 6.6 gallons of gas, pretty high up, that you have to contend with. That almost 40lbs of extra weight.

The best solution: Slow Speed Practice.

 

[mcatrophy]

To answer one specific question, the passenger should keep their feet on the pegs at all times unless actually getting on or off, with the possible exception of a leg stretch when travelling steadily.

I'm no expert, but from everything I've learnt, the passenger should keep their body in line with the driver, and should never attempt to "help" to lean the bike. They should pretend they are a sack of potatoes tied to the driver (find some other description for your significant other if you want to keep her).

 

[blakmambo]

My FJR is the best two-up bike Ive ever owned.This coming from a guy thats spent 13 seasons on Gold Wings.

Part of the reason was switching to a 190/55 rear tire and

installing stiffer springs, front and rear.

My first thought, although you didnt mention weights,

is that your rear springing is too soft.

Keeping the rear-end up is paramount to good, neutral handling.

@SLK50:

Thanks for the reply, yep, running the stock springs/shock--I have 21K on the bike, so I'm anticipating a fork "rebuild" around 30K, at which point I might think of upgrading the components a bit. I've used Works Performance springs and shock on my older bike, it does have to be "reasonable" in cost as I'm long passed the "charging every corner" type of ride. I got a suggestion here that whenever the shock wears out to go to the Gen 3 shock . . . which looks reasonable enough in cost, question would be whether spending a tad bit more would get me "light years ahead" on quality of performance. I'll have to check the rear tire size, it's a Metz OEM-ish replacement by the previous owner; I've only had the bike for 3 years and a few months back I went to Pirelli Angel on the front, my mechanic "missed" the "A" option, so it's a "non-A." I know, "bad form" to blame my mechanic for not being familiar with the FJR.

The FJR is an excellent bike; two-up or single. She is VERY top-heavy, however, and will drop like a rock at slow speeds. Please read the (many) other threads about dropping FJRs, like this one, and this one, and this one, and ..... you get the idea.
Bad form to blame it on the pillion, as most of us have dropped our bikes while riding one-up.

@Uncle Hud:

Thanks also to you for your post, you'd have to know my pillion to know how bad my form is in this discussion, but I often don't shy away from it if it will bring "change in behavior" which isn't easy to do in a 38 some year relationship. Compared to some Kawi's I've ridden like the Konk 10 & 14 I don't find the FJR to be exceedingly "top heavy" but as posted I'm noticing "floppiness" which is seemingly "exclusive" to the FJR compared to other bikes we've ridden together for many, many, miles . . . .

@HRZ:

Full tank of gas . . . yes, that could have factored into this recent event, wasn't freshly topped off, but to the fuller side . . . Konk 10 has 7+ gallons very high up, which we can ride together without this same flop, possibly rake/trail is more "conservative" on that bike and, although I have dumped that bike riding solo didn't have a floppy problem on it two-up.

 

[Uncle Hud]

HotRodZilla makes a good point: run 42 psi front and 44 psi rear, and CHECK IT CAREFULLY just prior to riding two-up. I can handle (much) lower pressure one-up, but the bike gets real squishy when tire pressures are below 35 psi.

Not to be disrespectful, but intentional practice at slow speeds gives you -- and the pillion -- good practice. Click here.

 

[RossKean]

Rear shock!! (Fussy about tire pressure as well, as others have mentioned) Get the rear tire changed out too!

Makes all the difference in the world, especially if too much sag. You need to get the rear raised up a bit relative to the front. Gen III replacement shock for a significant improvement. Aftermarket Penske or Ohlins for the win. I think the front fork revalve/respring would help with handling for aggressive riding etc., but the shock will make the most improvement for your issue.

 

[blakmambo]

@Uncle H:

Tire pressure, previous owner suggested 40/42 . . . which I am pretty rigorous about maintaining adequate tire pressure, generally "max cold" recommended on the tire. I'll have to check into 42/44 as an option for two-up riding, these days it's more solo, but pressure in tires doesn't get much below 38/40 w/o adding air . . . the PO tire valves were a PITA, now with the new tire the new valve guts has made adding air much easier.

@R/K:

Thanks for the thoughts on the shock, I haven't had the time to look into the front/rear sag on this bike, the PO had it set up for "firm" and he is a bigger man than I am . . . any thoughts on the fork revalve/respring as far as naming parts goes?

 

[08FJR4ME]

The one thing left out in the scenario is weight of the driver and passenger. Up to you if you want to disclose or not. You don't mention how tall you are also. I am average height and I still struggle. Is the seat in the lower position? This would help tremendously. I notice a big difference between the 2008 and the 2015 bike. I have to be much more careful on the 2015. It sits higher because the increased spring rate for that year. Not only that but I added the third trunk up on the tail.

My lovely pillion of 9 riding years just sits on the back and doesn't lean what so ever. Half the time I don't know she is there. Well that's until she nods off and the front of her helmet hits the back of mine. No complaints there. I just learn to work with what I got and I am not giving up the FJR any time soon. And yes I have dropped both bikes once already. Get some T-rex guards.

Good luck,

Dave

 

[Eagle Six]

Everyone has pretty much covered it, but I'll add my own experience. I have an 07' FJR (shouldn't be that much difference than you 09'). I have never found any issue with tight slow speed turns when 2-up, compared to other bikes (ST1330, ZX14, etc.). Before I started trading out hard parts, I would take the time to assure what I had was/wasn't working.

I would start off with the cold tire pressure as per factory. I would set the front suspension preload, rebound and compression up to factory settings and the rear preload and rebound at factory settings for my weight plus passenger. Test ride. From there I would make small adjustments, one-at-a-time, up and down (or in and out) and test ride to determine the difference. If I found an improvement with the rear I would then perform a similar process adjusting the front preload, rebound and compression dampening. It takes a while with all the small, one-at-time setting changes and test rides, but the time spent will be well worth it when the suspension is setup for you and your style. After the suspension I would go back to the tires, first going up two pounds, test, then going down two pounds and test, and maybe see what the difference between front and rear make by two pounds at a time.

If your passenger can put up with this for an hour or two, you should find an improvement. I wouldn't over look my, and my passengers techniques during the test rides around the parking lot, as it's good practice with the opportunity to improve our slow speed maneuvering skills. I once had a passenger that was quite wild in the back and that was challenging during the slow speed stuff. Whether they like to be a sack of potatoes or sit-up and lean back, I have not found important, rather that they just stay put and consistent. At highway speeds the passenger can lean or shift quite a bit, and provided we have a lane and not too close to obstructions, it's rather easy to overcome their movements. At parking lot speeds and tight turns, thrashing around in the back can present some pucker factor moments. I ask them to hold on, relax, and go with the bike. If there is any weight/body shift, I will do it. The important point is, like luggage and a full tank, you don't need your load unexpectedly shifting around behind you in the middle of a maneuver.

 

[blakmambo]

et al:

Looks like I've used up my "likes" for the day, so "thanks" to the additional comments . . . .

@Eagle6:

If there is any weight/body shift, I will do it. The important point is, like luggage and a full tank, you don't need your load unexpectedly shifting around behind you in the middle of a maneuver.

Agreed . . . higher speed thrashing from pillion is easier to flex around given enough room on the highway, than low speed thrashing . . . .

 

[kerlinger]

With upgraded suspension and new tires they still fall over...this bike has super high Center of Gravity...doesn't help with 32" inseam either.

 

[blakmambo]

SLK50 saidart of the reason was switching to a 190/55 rear tire and

installing stiffer springs, front and rear.

My first thought, although you didnt mention weights,

is that your rear springing is too soft.

Keeping the rear-end up is paramount to good, neutral handling.

@SLK50: So I checked my rear tire and it looks like it's 180/55 . . . haven't checked the OEM recommends to see what that is, I went through a lot of tires on my Konk, using the GW tire which was wider because nobody was stocking the OEM size, when I finally got there, it was a tad, like 5mm narrower the bike handled much better in the turns. So, what are we doing with the 190 spec? trying to make the bike more stable under load, slow it down a tad bit? Or, just that the wider tire has a higher weight carrying capacity? Prolly have a few thousand more on this tire, but, always game to play around with tires as they do wear out in fairly short order and can always be changed.

Kerlinger said: With upgraded suspension and new tires they still fall over...this bike has super high Center of Gravity...doesn't help with 32" inseam either.

@kerlinger:

Indeed the generic motorcycle is inherently "unstable" and they do tip over, often without much warning. I see we both have the 09 model, so I could look forward to perhaps another tipover, the next time hopefully with better more expensive parts inside taking the . . . fall . . . . : - )))))

 

[RossKean]

The 180/55 is the recommended tire. The 190 is preferred by some (although I never found it necessary to pay the extra!). Reduces the speedo error and MAY improve slow speed handling a bit. (Don't expect a miracle!) Fresh tires (try the new Dunlop Roadsmart III) will make a big difference. Avoid front brake in slow speed maneuvering.

 

[Bill Lumberg]

The bike didn’t do it. The pillion didn’t do it. It’s a high COG bike that requires skill to maneuver at low speed 2-up. Dragging the rear brake while applying throttle with the clutch in the friction zone (when done properly) allows witchcraft-like low speed stability.

 

[blakmambo]

@Bill L:

Anything requiring "skill" is one of my problem areas, but, good insight on the "use the rear brake, Luke . . ." that is something that I am aware of and practice at stop signs to try to avoid putting a foot down, etc.

This recent instance was much more complicated by the multitude of pedestrian pods crossing the street factor which brought "hesitation" into the execution of the move; we have "pedestrian right of way" in CA and receive little quarter from their right to sloooowwwwwlllyyyy amble across an intersection at will, with no regard for the guy sitting in the sun waiting for them--impatience became a factor.

So it does seem like a few posts have mentioned "high center of gravity" as a feature of the FJR, but nothing about rake/trail or other factors that could be involved, as though if they were spoken about it would somehow make them worse--we all know there is no "perfect bike." I'm reminded of the old CHP column in the moto mag Free2Wheel that would show a diagram of a few lanes with a bike lying in the road along with a diagram of the rider further down the road, an obvious tragedy had occurred and invariably the CHP moto experts opinion each time was the dry comment; "The rider should have maintained high visual horizon, and adjusted throttle inputs so that braking could be achieved within sighting distances . . . " Yes, if **only** the rider had done that; we know responsibility is always with the rider, but sometimes the circumstances can impinge, and then the strengths and weaknesses of rider **and** machine are brought into clarity. This one seems to involve "high COG" that complicates low speed maneuvers and requires actual riding skill, continues to be part of the rider error factor--the guy with no skills!!!

 

[Canadian Steve]

As has been stated, getting the suspension preloads set correctly and shocks dialed in is a good place to start. (The Gen 3 is a much better load carrying spring rate)

Some tires have a sharper profile and bring the the low speed top heaviness issue more to the forefront, (while improving the highspeed sharpness and response. The GT's are more of a quick rider compliment and the PR4's somewhat heavier handling but maybe with a slightly better low speed profile(front).

You need to do some low speed practice maneuvering with out bags, top box , or pillion and lower fuel level. Practice figure 8's and such while using friction zone and slight rear brake to stabilize bike. Even slight brake at idle without friction zone will show great improvement(but don't stall it

THEN after you are much more comfortable and know how it will react when weight is a light as possible, get the pillion on for some practice till you are comfortable. You can then put on the bags and be much more confident in your handling.

Not saying tip overs can't happen, and sometimes circumstances are unexpected, but when you are on higher COG bike, you must always be vigilante at low speed. (This gets ingrained more deeply, the shorter your legs are.LOL. )

For what its worth , I rode a fully outfitted C10 for many years (7.5 gal tank). The FJR is absolutely a walk in the park compared to it , at almost stopped speeds.

 

[Bill Lumberg]

It’s just harder with a pillion. Regardless of the bike. Bigger the pillion, the smaller your margin for error. And it wasn’t big in the first place when you’re talking about low speed. Front preload and inflation are key factors though.