2 separate episodes of Road Rage at night

[GalaxyBlue]

This sucks!

I encounter the same problems Whether i am driving my BIG truck, Of on the MC! :angry2:

It used to be limited to Major cities, But not the case anymore... <_<

 

[Skippy]

Get a CCW, and exercise your right to defend yourself. There's a time and place when it's called 'justifiable'.

You either don't have a CCW, just like giving very dangerous advice or both.

As a CCW holder, I can tell you that's a sure fire way to get in more trouble, given the circumstaces posted - in any state that I'm aware of, and certainly FL at the very least. All it would take is you being reported as brandishing a firearm - through whatever means of you being arrested - and you now have a felony conviction - and no more CCW.

That's not to say I don't agree with the intentions of your suggestion. If there were a *legal* way for me to do great bodily harm, or immobilize the offending vehicle - I'd be all over that shit!

If your going to contradict someone else's opinion, it may help to be better informed, since the advent of the "Castle Doctrine" where every person has the right to defend themselves from imminent use of unlawful force against them, they no longer have the "Right" to retreat.

"76.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013. "

It has been proven that using a vehicle as a weapon to cause bodily harm or the threat of bodily harm constitutes unlawful force.

That is in Florida, where I do have a CCW and a Statewide ("G" firearms license) for use as a bodyguard/private detective (C License).

Now this conversation could go back and forth with various "opinions" and would most certainly constitute a thread jack, so, if you wish to debate this I would suggest it is done by PM or in the NERT area.

Skippy

 

[skyway]

This sucks!
I encounter the same problems Whether i am driving my BIG truck, Of on the MC! :angry2:

It used to be limited to Major cities, But not the case anymore... <_<

Hi Adam, so how does it feel to back with the land of the living? Some scary joo joo for sure. Glad to see you at the keyboard getting stuck in!! :clapping:

That is in Florida, where I do have a CCW and a Statewide ("G" firearms license) for use as a bodyguard/private detective (C License).

Farkle revision "Skippy's phone number for when I plan to go out riding"

So, you planning on moving to cali anytime soon?

 

[Mike-H]

Two words: Ball bearings.









[SIZE=8pt](I'm kidding.)[/SIZE]

I've always preferred used spark plugs myself as a last resort....just remember to wipe off your finger prints 1st :derisive: ....glad your not writing this from a hospital bed or worse :good: .....

 

[fjr]

I also carry but think you did the right thing. Avoidance is the way to go.

Firing at a vehicle, aggressive as it may be, is not an option. If it was, the

show "Cops" would be off the air. There are some serious aholes out there.

 

[raclow]

Some people just don't know how to enjoy life without being stupid. They might have been pissed that you didn't ask them to ride on the back with you....who knows

The spark plug or heavy fire power comes to mind in these situations. :angry:

Glad you are OK.

Maybe they had been to some wine tastings.......???

 

[caryt]

A bud used to carry a 2" dia steel ball just for people like those.

cary

 

[trmn8er]

Skyway: Congratulation on thinking and using what you have to get out of yourself out of trouble. That is one of the many such as the one you were in. I would not hesitate to twist that throttle to get away from any cager tring to take me out .
If you only could have one of those high powered lights to shine in that persons window that would have been a very good defense and for him to crash instead of you being taken out.

May be we should think about carring a spot light for such instances at night time for our safety from idiots like that..

glad ypu did not hang up your keys and decided to keep riding.

I like your suggestion, althought I too would not hesitate to twist the throttle... I carry a 225 Lumen Surefire Flashlight on my person at all times while riding. It WILL blind you.

 

[Clark Kent]

I want royalties!


:lol:

How would you use Ball Bearings at speed? CK

How about a camera to get the action and license of the car. All this stuff means riding with one hand and fending off the cage at the same time. Better off to get out of there. (get the plate # And go see them later with the police)!

CK

 

[skyway]

I want royalties!


:lol:

How would you use Ball Bearings at speed? CK

I'm guessing a quick flick backwards toward the perpetrators windshield? Then down to fourth gear and high tail it outta there.

 

[TruWrecks]

The unfortunate part of the "Laws of the Lowest Common Denominator" are geared to protect those idiots from their own actions. If you do anything that could cause the one of the idiots to loose control, you just became the bad guy! It doesn't matter that they were just about to intentionally smear you on the center barrier!

Anyway, Skyway did the right thing for the given situation. The throttle can be very useful, if you need to make room or get out of the way quickly.

 

[TruWrecks]

How about a camera to get the action and license of the car. All this stuff means riding with one hand and fending off the cage at the same time. Better off to get out of there. (get the plate # And go see them later with the police)!
CK

That would work great if you can find a safe place to pull over and let them pass. I have a Samsung NV10 that can record video, but you'd have to get pretty close to the back to get a good shot of their rear plate. Better also have it adjusted so it isn't recording you speedometer. They police might decide to yank your license if you have proof that you were doing triple digit speeds. They won't care why. They'll only care that it's been recorded.

 

[HIGHLANDER]

Zumo with blue tooth enabled phone ?? You can have a running dialog with 911 while doing 100+ and being tailgated.

You did the right thing Ian, speed is your friend in these situations, pulling the Glock will just lead to trouble, less you bury the bodies !

 

[Toecutter]

I'd say do whatever you can to get the offenders in front of you. Then you're in better control of the situation...

...first some lady in a late model honda accord tried to take me out twice on I-5 heading south toward Stockton. First she tried to put my in the shoulder with a hard right swerve and I managed to out brake her, then she slowed down and slammed on in front of me in the fast lane and I avoided her again with a full grab of the brake lever. Finally the crazy bitch sped away and for the first time I felt completely vulnerable on 2 wheels. I have no idea what triggered her to do this?

I think you nailed it. Crazy bitch (I've known a few) who perceived some slight that you dealt her, probably without your knowing. Let 'er by as soon as possible.

Then on Hwy4, not 20 minutes later I had another car (some large type US brand) come from within a group of cars behind me and just sit right on my fender and was all over the road behind me, I got the impression the driver was either high or drunk. I stayed calm for about 2 miles, then started getting nervous. There's nothing out on Hwy4, just 2 lanes of farmland darkness for about 30 miles. I tried slowing way down and just moved across the lane to allow the car to pass, but the car came right up real fast and slammed the brakes on right behind my fender and I heard the tires chirp. Scary shit for sure. So I did the only thing I could think of to get away from this nut job, I nailed it for around 20 miles, throwing caution to my license, I figured I'd take my chances this way vs. the alternative unknowns of pulling over.

Remember how you out-braked the crazy bitch in the light Honda? Ever seen the movie "Top Gun"? Maverick- "I'll hit the brakes and he'll fly right by". Especially in a big sedan. What if he didn't stop short of your fender?

Jerk the bars, swerve out of his path (as soon as safely possible), mash the binders, and be ready to turn around. If he tries to turn around, it's on! You can out turn, out brake and outrun any large sedan.

IMHO, I would probably sell the bike before adding the gun farkle to deal with ragin' cagers, but maybe not, if I could do it legally. When you have a gun in the toolbox, everything starts to look like a target. That's why I gave up martial arts. It was cutting into my diplomacy agenda. I have just enough skilz to use it pretty well, but only as a last resort, or when some asshat really, really needs to have me go Skyway on his monkey ass. The last time I threw down was when a guy was hitting a female security guard. Two hits- me hitting him, him hitting the ground for a short unscheduled nap.

 

[exskibum]

Jeeze, Skyway -- bad mojo on the way home, to say the least! I hope this concentrated dose of asshat nonsense has cleared your karmic agenda for a while. You clearly did the right thing -- and you got home without being injured, without warrants for your arrest, with the bike and all farkels intact, and with nothing more than a mildly violated, "WTF?" perspective.

It's been almost 30 years since I had a confrontation on a bike from this kind of thing, but I'm always wondering whether that too sudden lane change, or that too fast approaching truck from behind is about to be the next time I have to deal with an idiot who for some unknown reason hates anyone on a bike at that moment. For all we know, the crazy woman you dealt with has an ex with a bike, and the truck driver may have just found out his ex-lover is banging someone who rides.

 

[Colin24]

I'm posting this here, as this happened last night while heading home from the Napa ride. I'm not sure this is the right spot for the thread though? I still can't believe this all transpired in less than half an hour of one-another.
.... Much Deleted .....

Glad to hear that you are alright. I've had a few run-ins over the years with these types myself and it always leaves you a bit shakey for a couple days after.

FWIW: Here are my $0.02 worth on what to do and what not to do. (And no they dont all apply to skyways incident. Just general comments since we are on the subject).

1- Dont piss people off. If somebody cuts you off or pinches you out of a lane do NOT visibly react. There are some real nut bags out there where anything will set them off.

That said, in Skyways case, and in one incident I had a couple months ago it is obvious that people will still snap for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

But there was another case several years back where I flipped a guy off with the one finger salute after he tried to pinch me out during a lane change and he _completely_ snapped. He ended up at one point in the incident hanging out the drivers side window at 60 mph swinging his fist at me. So don't piss em off, dont make eye contact, nothing.

The suggestions about ballbearings, firepower and all those things are nice to chuckle about. But you never know if the other guy has something bigger. Plus if he _really_ wants to he can just aim the bumper of his car at your back wheel and ram you. He drives away and your dead in a ditch.

With the tailgaiters one tactic I have used is to speed away and put some space. If there's other traffic I try and time a pass of the other traffic in such a way that he gets left behind. If the person appears to be catching up again start bringing your speed down and use your lack of speed as encouragement to go around. Dont wave them around, people will misunderstand and think you are giving them the finger or something. If necessary, pull into a gas station or side street. But this gets to my next point.

2- If you are forced to take action to get out of the situation. Make it seem like your actions are unrelated to the situation. Dont do anything that can be misconstrued as aggressive towards that road-rager. Also making sure your actions are purely defensive helps alot when you are speaking to the police after the fact.

With the tailgaiter, outrunning will work if you have the conditions. (Perhaps heavy traffic allowing you to lane split) But the reality is, there are alot of cars out there with 250 hp+ engines that can match our bikes, even when driven by drunk incompentents. And IF the idiot is going to bounce off you rear wheel, better to have it happen at 45 then 145 mph.

When I've been in these situations I have deliberately turned off into parking lots, businesses, or side streets. Sometimes I have even used other traffic to act as a block between us. Whatever is safe to do so. But keep an eye out to see if the guy is going to follow and continue to escalate the situation.

3- If you see the police (Never one around when you need one, sigh) Wave him down. Turn around and catch up to him if necessary. If you see a sign for a police station, then drive there.

I know the LEO's in this area (and I assume right across the continent) take an extremely dim view of this type of behaviour. (Road Rage). And even if nothing can be proved, they will usually make every attempt to have a chat with the individual. So make sure you are not part of the problem when this occurs.

Two personal cases. One that happened over 5 years ago. I got the licence. Police looked into it. Other guy had a bullshit story trying to cover his actions and the cop admitted that if he tried to prosecute it would come down to he said/she said. But... The officer contacted the police in the community where he lives and guess what. He was well know to the LEO's there for having "anger management" issues. Nuff said. Oh and the icing on the cake. Turns out he was driving a company car with a suspended drivers licence. So even though he was not charged with anything directly related to the road rage incident, he was charged. And seriously inconvenienced at work.

A second that happend a few months ago. Guy snapped for no reason whatsoever. Tried to shake him by driving down side streets. No luck, so I drove to the police station. Once I was in front of the police station I actually stopped in the middle of the road and held him and all the traffic up while I got out and wrote down his licence number and then pulled into the police station. But this guy was so pissed and convinced he was right he followed me in yelling at me the whole time. Once in the police lot I went up and banged on the door (evening in a small town at shift change). It took a minute but then a whole cluster of cops came out. Now here's where not doing anything aggresive and remaing calm comes in handy. At this point the guy had parked his vehicle and was now approaching myself and shouting as all the cops came out of the building. All but one of the officers immediately escorted him into the building. As for me they took a quick statement and my contact info and I was allowed to leave immediately. I fully attribute the fact that I remained calm and collected and did nothing agressive at any time that I was allowed to leave so easily. It was very obvious to the police who the aggresor was.

4- As soon as possible, Document the incident.

If it ever comes to court later, (or he decides to lawyer up and tries to sue you, you never know) it can be very handy to have a complete description of your view of the events. Especially if that document was generated while the incident was still as fresh as possible in your mind, not six months later. I did this in the most recent incident (even thought I never did need it). And included everything. Including my speed at various key points (I've got a data logger in the car) to help document that you were behaving properly.

Also include the licence number and a description of the vehicle and its driver. Not always possible to get all of these. But get as much as you can. Note anything distintive that you can about the vehicle or the driver. Then when your done. Date and sign the document.

Anyways, Just my $0.02 worth.

- Colin

 

[Toecutter]

Anyways, Just my $0.02 worth.- Colin

More like two bucks worth, and all good stuff...

 

[madmike2]

Skyway makes a mod to his hydration system that actually holds cat urine,

:clapping:

Actually, before I got to this post, I was thinking suggesting a launcher (spring loaded cannister, about 2" in diameter) for canine or bovine fecal matter. But yer-ine could be sprayed from a rather small, unobtrusive nozzle that would look like a vent. heh-heh-heh-heh-heh :yahoo:

Jeepers-creepers, surely someone would spray a tailgaiter that turned out ot be an unmarked cop. Now THAT would be interesting! :dribble:

 

[Kaelaria]

Get a CCW, and exercise your right to defend yourself. There's a time and place when it's called 'justifiable'.

You either don't have a CCW, just like giving very dangerous advice or both.

As a CCW holder, I can tell you that's a sure fire way to get in more trouble, given the circumstaces posted - in any state that I'm aware of, and certainly FL at the very least. All it would take is you being reported as brandishing a firearm - through whatever means of you being arrested - and you now have a felony conviction - and no more CCW.

That's not to say I don't agree with the intentions of your suggestion. If there were a *legal* way for me to do great bodily harm, or immobilize the offending vehicle - I'd be all over that shit!

If your going to contradict someone else's opinion, it may help to be better informed, since the advent of the "Castle Doctrine" where every person has the right to defend themselves from imminent use of unlawful force against them, they no longer have the "Right" to retreat.

"76.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013. "

It has been proven that using a vehicle as a weapon to cause bodily harm or the threat of bodily harm constitutes unlawful force.

That is in Florida, where I do have a CCW and a Statewide ("G" firearms license) for use as a bodyguard/private detective (C License).

Now this conversation could go back and forth with various "opinions" and would most certainly constitute a thread jack, so, if you wish to debate this I would suggest it is done by PM or in the NERT area.

Skippy

OMG puhleese - 'I'm right, you're wrong, now take it to PM' - riiiight.

The SIMPLE fact of the matter was - there were OBVIOUSLY other options than deadly force. If you doubt that - read the first post. He used one of those options and nothing happened. He drove away. Another possibility would be to stop. Maybe stop and go again. Maybe any number of options OTHER than deadly force. It is ONLY authorized during the commission of a forcible felony, or witness to thereof where it is "reasonably believed" that using deadly force is necessary to prevent "imminent" use of deadly force against yourself or others. Someone tailgating road rage style when you have options available such as the one taken, is NOT an ironclad forcible felony nor does it clearly fall under CD - no way no how.

The inclusion of vehicles in the doctrine was to address carjacking. Moving vehicles have not had precident set, nor does this story read to me anywhere near a qualifying situation.

Still really bad advice in my book.

Now, don't discuss this anymore, take it to PM BWHAHA!

 

[skyway]

Zumo with blue tooth enabled phone ?? You can have a running dialog with 911 while doing 100+ and being tailgated.
You did the right thing Ian, speed is your friend in these situations, pulling the Glock will just lead to trouble, less you bury the bodies !

I'm not heading to the packing stage anytime soon, though if in the middle of nowhere, and if things escalated in the other persons favor, I'd be in deep doo doo right now. I do have my phone hooked up through my Autocom and should have at least called in car #1, she lost it, was out of control and in need of the CHP to calm her down with a BIG ticket. IMO a good stiffing in the wallet usually is enough to calm anyone down and make them think twice before re-offending.