2007 Altitude Surging Problem - Members Wanted

[ELP_JC]

Tophog, you can have a lean condition at ANY altitude buddy; if you have less fuel than needed for proper combustion for any give air density, BAM!, a lean condition. Granted, it's rare that it happens to modern vehicles, since that destroys engines in short order, and most FI systems revert to sea level conditions with any sensor malfunction. At any rate, I never said my bike was running lean; I said it was running RICH, and apparently all the time. EPA mandates engines to run lean, but normal lean, not dangerous lean. However, the line is getting blurred at the EPA cycles, causing driveability problems, hence the popularity of PCIII, etc. But when an ECU is acting erratically like ours, none of those can fix the problem.

Silent, have you done the BM mode to your bike, and if so, by how many did you bump the CO levels?? Just curious. Glad you hear your bike is running fine. But have you changed elevation by more than 2K'?? What else have you done to your bike? TB synch? PCIII? Different plugs? Premium fuel? Just curious. Thanks man.

JC

 

[tophog]

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[Silent]

Silent, have you done the BM mode to your bike, and if so, by how many did you bump the CO levels?? Just curious. Glad you hear your bike is running fine. But have you changed elevation by more than 2K'?? What else have you done to your bike? TB synch? PCIII? Different plugs? Premium fuel? Just curious. Thanks man.JC

Yep., I've done the G2 and the Barbarian mod, no PC3 tho. My bike seems to prefer +4 over +7, however the CO settings never have made a difference in surging. It surged before, and it surged after. The only other thing I've done is a TBS and put on miles. One of my favorite runs is from sea level to 4200 feet up a nice tight technical road that runs about 24 miles. The surging probably isn't totally gone, but it's gotten alot better and alot less often with the miles. I've been feeling it was ECU related since day one. mine may fall on the other end of the spectrum, where some are getting wores, mine is getting better :dntknw: Random thoughts.

 

[Mick]

It's obvious this damn thing (ECU) is not compensating for altitude gentlemen. I bet all the surging is due to TOO RICH conditions, not too lean, don't you think?


Hey, another idea: How about setting the CO levels like early '06s? Something like -10, xx, xx, xx? What were they again?

Take care guys.

JC

JC,

It's not a TOO RICH condition, it is total loss of FI control. It's either 'off the map' or totally confused as to exactly how it should handle the current input data.

The CO setttings are similar on a lot of bikes but they are not going to cause or fix this problem. Most all of the stock bikes will read 1.5-2.0 CO% A good running bike with a PCIII and a good map will run in the 3.5-4.0 CO% This is considered rich by EPA standards but pretty normal for a good running track bike.

Mick

 

[twistedcricket]

I rode from home (omahell, NE) to Rocky Mtn National Park, through the park from Grand Lake to Estes Park, to Dillon, then back home. Over 4 days on the road. Zero issues. I did adjust fuel, from 87 octane between home and the park to 85 octane while in CO. I'm back to 87 octane.

I would agree with whoever said to research the numbers on the bikes. Is there a range (from the VIN) of bikes that exhibit or is it all over?

I wonder what the dealer actually does during the setup. Might that have something to do with it?

 

[ELP_JC]

It's not a TOO RICH condition, it is total loss of FI control. It's either 'off the map' or totally confused as to exactly how it should handle the current input data.

Absolutely. However, when that happens, ECU goes back to 'default' mode, which is sea level conditions, to protect the engine. But since we happen to be at altitude, it's too much fuel, hence rich. We both are right.

I brought this up because my 400-mile bike had an unbelievable amount of soot for so little miles. It's obvious is running rich; no question about that. The question is why. That's why I started speculating about different scenarios.

And yes, the CO levels wouldn't cure anything. But remember we're dealing with a ghost here. Maybe that, plus higher idle, and who knows what else get the parameter that's confusing the ECU in spec (like a vacuum out of range), and the surging goes away.

Silent, how many miles on your bike buddy? One other scenario is the computer 'learns' riding conditions over time and adjusts, but as far as I know, only Lexus and other luxury car makers have such computers that learn your riding habits, and adapt accordingly. And thanks for the info. I'm going to set the CO at 3 myself, along with the idle at 1100 and see what happens. I also know my TBs are not perfectly synched, but have the tool in transit. Will probably do an early 600 service, which will consist of engine/diff oil change (fully synthetic oil in both), clutch/brake fluid change, and TB synch + idle adjustment. Good evening.

JC

 

[Silent]

I've got about 7k on mine, it's covered and alarmed atm so not gonna go get exact #'s. I know, kinda low miles, but my bike was in the shop for 6 weeks due to a bus. That's my excuse and I'm standing by it.

I seriously doupt that our ECU's 'learn' the way we ride. That costs a fair amount of $ and it seems there trying to save every cent by eliminating sensors and lowering production costs. My dime is a programming glitch from a snipit of code snagged from the AE's by a tired programmer trying to save a bit of time. I haven't been paying enough attention to know weather any of the surging bikes are AE's btw.

 

[ELP_JC]

I seriously doupt that our ECU's 'learn' the way we ride.

Me too; I was just rambling.

Hey, good observation about the AEs; haven't been paying attention to the signatures.

Reason I scratched the AE out of consideration was the surging/stumbling issue. Imagine not having a clutch to deal with that?? Plus the unknown reliability. I really liked it, so I see one of those in my future, but preferred the clutch for now. I'm not that old yet < lol>. It was a blast riding that thing. And I got used to it immediately.

And hey, 7K miles is not that few man. I put about 4K a year on my sport-tourers. Later.

 

[chiefj48]

my bike was built 12/06, and i don't have any of the problems that some of you are having.

 

[peter_sd]

Just got back from a ride up in the local mountains. It was about 92 degrees out and i was in second gear around 3k to 4k rpm. My bike has only 500 miles on it around 4000 feet untill about 6000 feet it was surging bad. It felt like a loss of power and then it took off it did that quite a bit. I tried down shifting into 1st it didnt seem to do it in first but as soon as i went back into second it surged.

This is a brand new bike just got it last weekend. The last 6 of my VIN are 000709

 

[ELP_JC]

This is a brand new bike just got it last weekend. The last 6 of my VIN are 000709

Welcome to the club Peter. My VIN is 002933, so yours is 'older', but all '07s have the same ECU, so it doesn't really matter. I bet your build date is within a month of mine. Mine is 1/07. Check yours on the right side of the steering stem; it's a white label.

Anyway, not the end of the world. There are many things you can do to minimize the effects. And you can do a lot of experimentation if you have the mountains close by; I don't.

And you should definitely call Yamaha and file a complaint with the NHTSB if you feel like it. That will 'force' them to do something soon, in case they're dragging their feet. Take care.

JC

 

[TruWrecks]

People,

Please don't post your VIN to a public forum. Send me the last 6 in a private message.

I have it on a very trustworthy word (Don't ask. I've been sworn to secrecy.) that Yamaha has a good number of employees working to identify the reported problem. The FJR is one of their elite bikes, and they're taking this issue very seriously. Have patience. They will get this nailed down soon.

 

[peter_sd]

ELP i looked at the build date on mine it is 03/07. I live about 1/2 hour from Palomar Mtn it climbs from about 2,000 to 7,000 in a reasonably short time it has nice tight turns.

 

[Silent]

It's possible that build dates may help point twards the problem. If a bad or borderline lot of parts made it thru inspection, then they would all be used in a similar time frame. My '07 has a build date of 11/06.

Just food for thought.

 

[ELP_JC]

ELP i looked at the build date on mine it is 03/07.

Is this possible? How come mine is 1/07 and a much higher number? That's weird.

If this is the case, we don't need to bother with build dates, as they don't mean nothing. Take care.

JC

 

[headude]

In the middle of my trip to CO from Idaho via Carmel, CA. Just toook the leg from Sacramento to Snowmass, CO. I noticed that when climbing to higher elevations (5-6000 ft) that there was some very slight surging, almost like it was a very sensitive on-off throttle. It was so minor that I did not stop for that reason. When I did stop at the rest stop and restarted it went away. It also happened other times as I went up and down elevations, but never really bad, very minor and manageable. It never impacted me from a a safety standpoint, but, I could see how it could, if it was worse. Since I was/am watching this thread and was very conscious of this issue, I wanted to make sure that I was alert to it on my trip. I am now in Snowmass, so, as opportunity occurs I will add comments when appropriate.

BTW I have about 2500mi. on the bike and settings are at +5. Just before the trip I had the 600 mile service done and had the TBS for the hell of it--spot on. Ambient temps on the ride were 70-100 degrees.

 

[painman]

Just curious, has anyone with the surging/stalling problem had any codes come up on their meter? I'm thinking they have not because of the difficulty pinning the problem down but just curious. And has anyone heard back from Yamaha on this issue? Sorry if one has but just didn't want to read 13 pages. Thanks, PM. <><

 

[DPS]

An update on my situation:

Dealer (today) says Yamaha's position is that they are unable to detect any surging problems as described here. Yamaha will not agree to cover the cost of the dealer test driving my bike either - even though I have filed a formal complaint with the NHTSA. Likewise, the dealer shows little concern and says if Yamaha won't pay, then I'll have to. I must agree to pay $288 to have the dealer drive the bike up into the mountains before they'll do anything. He said I wouldn't be charged if they actually found that I wasn't lying to them. I think I already know what the outcome will be.

Contrary to encouraging comments made by other members here, it seems Yamaha is absolutely convinced there is no problem and will do nothing that may prove them wrong. You may be getting sympathy from your dealer, but not Yamaha.

If those of you who genuinely have experienced this problem want any hope of getting it fixed, you're going to have to do something other than just post here. If you don't, they'll just do something like release an "enhanced" ECU on the 2008's and we'll all be stuck with the 2007 "bastards" and their decreased market value (and performance).

As of right now, only 10 people have filed a formal complaint with the NHTSA. Compare this to the 100+ complaints against the 2007 R1 for a "flat spot at 5500 rpm in 2nd gear" and you begin to see why they're ignoring our problem.

Again, I am a first (and last) time Yamaha owner and I think they suck.

 

[huk finn]

An update on my situation:
Contrary to encouraging comments made by other members here, it seems Yamaha is absolutely convinced there is no problem and will do nothing that may prove them wrong. You may be getting sympathy from your dealer, but not Yamaha.

As of right now, only 10 people have filed a formal complaint with the NHTSA. Compare this to the 100+ complaints against the 2007 R1 for a "flat spot at 5500 rpm in 2nd gear" and you begin to see why they're ignoring our problem.

How about writing to some motorcycle publications/magazines? I know their biased,but maybe one will print something if they get enough letters. Also some on bike cameras recording a ride/malfunction (zoom in on serial #)sent to news station & nhtsa ? Class action lawsuit from those affected?

 

[ELP_JC]

Dealer (today) says Yamaha's position is that they are unable to detect any surging problems as described here.

Oh crap. Somehow I'm not surprised, and your prediction (fixing '08s but not admitting a problem on '07s) was exactly mine... but I was hoping to be wrong.

What ever happened to Yamaha already dealing with the problem? Can we be sure that dealer was speaking for them?

If that's the case, just like DPS, this is my first and last Yamaha too.

And yes Huck; at least sending our issue to the 'tech' question/answer section of ALL US motorcycle magazines would get us some exposure.

JC