2007 Altitude Surging Problem - Members Wanted

[gumba]

How can I be so ignorant. I have been working on this 07 problem for 6 months and thought I had it solved more times than I care to tell you about. I have replaced: 2 ECU's, 1 tps, 1 heat sensor, and just recently the air pressure sensor. That's when I contacted the TTT (Tucson Think Tank). They suggested I install a pot in series between the ECU and the APS. Their thinking was that APS was sending a voltage to the ECU that it couldn't handle.

I have always thought that chopping the throttle had more to do with this problem then altitude. I could always drive my ECU wacko by blasting down the straight and narrow,chopping the throttle and coasting to low rpm. At altitude when your using engine braking often the problem gets intense. When you are coasting with the butterflies closed you are throwing max vacum at the APS and that's when the ECU goes apeshit.

One way to modify this closed throttle vacum is with idle speed. This morning I went out, down the straight and narrow, turned to go up in altitude, and I was already in that mode. So I stopped with the engine still running made a small adjustment to idle speed and proceeded. I did this same thing a couple more times. I'm talking small adjustments here. I didn't pay any attention to the tack. I'm here to tell you I dialed out that that stumble. I went on to pull 8000 ft.- no prblem.

My idle has always been at or about 1100. But, I don't think that is good enough. You gotta get that APS talking to the the ECU in a language it can understand. I repeat, small increments.

Trivia;

Pegging the throttle momentarily will clear the ECU.(min vac)

When the ECU is in squid mode (startup) chances are that this symptom will not appear. This happens any time power is taken off the ECU. I think this is why Yamaha has had a hard time duplicating this problem. It stays in this mode for 500-800 miles.

Let me clarify. I'm not talking about simply raising the idle. I'm talking about a vacum/voltage that the ECU can handle. Put a mark on the idle adjust knob, go out and put your scooter in the mode, and with the engine running make some very small adjustments. You will know when you have gone too far in one direction. To crank the sob up to 1200 is not the answer. Put a sack over the tack. Disregard the absolute rpm value. You are looking for the symptom to diminish. Making these adjustments with a number 2 phillips makes it much easier. That knob is hard to get at on the 07. Marking the knob is critical. Otherwise you'll get lost.

 

[co425]

For all of you that think this is an 07 only problem it is not. Some 06's have this as well including mine. So swaping out an 06 for an 07 ecu may get you a little lighter wallet and exactly jack and s#$t for a cure. One thing is for sure idle speed has some corelation in this problem. I have to crank my idle up quite a bit to get this to go away up in the mountains and turn it back down at home. I am starting to really think this is a problem with a sensor that deals with a vacume signal. I.E. the AP sensor. As that little bugger is over a hundred new I am a little leary about chucking that much change down for a possible fix. If anyone else has the disposable income to get one. Let her fly and see what happens.

 

[Mick]

Let me clarify. I'm not talking about simply raising the idle. I'm talking about a vacum/voltage that the ECU can handle. Put a mark on the idle adjust knob, go out and put your scooter in the mode, and with the engine running make some very small adjustments. You will know when you have gone too far in one direction. To crank the sob up to 1200 is not the answer. Put a sack over the tack. Disregard the absolute rpm value. You are looking for the symptom to diminish. Making these adjustments with a number 2 phillips makes it much easier. That knob is hard to get at on the 07. Marking the knob is critical. Otherwise you'll get lost.

Jay,

Is this YOU? I was about to contact Don C. to see if you had fixed your problem.

I think you are masking the problem by limiting the HIGH vs LOW vacuum signal. Maybe it doesn't fault as much because you are not hitting the threshold it takes to surface the problem. I DO think it's going to take either a re-program of the ECU or a mechanical modification to actually fix the problem.

Mick

Tucson

 

[gumba]

Let me clarify. I'm not talking about simply raising the idle. I'm talking about a vacum/voltage that the ECU can handle. Put a mark on the idle adjust knob, go out and put your scooter in the mode, and with the engine running make some very small adjustments. You will know when you have gone too far in one direction. To crank the sob up to 1200 is not the answer. Put a sack over the tack. Disregard the absolute rpm value. You are looking for the symptom to diminish. Making these adjustments with a number 2 phillips makes it much easier. That knob is hard to get at on the 07. Marking the knob is critical. Otherwise you'll get lost.

Jay,

Is this YOU? I was about to contact Don C. to see if you had fixed your problem.

I think you are masking the problem by limiting the LOW vacuum signal. Maybe it doesn't fault as much because you are not hitting the threshold it takes to surface the problem. I DO think it's going to take either a re-program of the ECU or a mechanical modification to actually fix the problem.

Mick

Tucson

It's me.

 

[ELP_JC]

Let me clarify. I'm not talking about simply raising the idle. I'm talking about a vacum/voltage that the ECU can handle. Put a mark on the idle adjust knob, go out and put your scooter in the mode, and with the engine running make some very small adjustments. You will know when you have gone too far in one direction. To crank the sob up to 1200 is not the answer. Put a sack over the tack. Disregard the absolute rpm value. You are looking for the symptom to diminish. Making these adjustments with a number 2 phillips makes it much easier. That knob is hard to get at on the 07. Marking the knob is critical. Otherwise you'll get lost.

Hey man, you lost me there. What 'mode'? Could you elaborate on exactly what adjustment you're proposing?

And how about what Mick is saying about your adjustment?

Finally, since we're talking about vacuum, it's prudent to assume the TB synch might have something to do with the problem, no? Remember the FJR has NO base TB for that purpose. ALL TBs are supposed to be synched at 250mmHg. What happens if they're lower or higher?? I'm waiting for my tool to synch mine (will do it along with the oil changes at 600), but will first test #3 with a Craftsman vacuum gauge I have which should be more accurate than stupid sticks, no? Once I have #3 right on the money, will get the others to match. Do we have to go higher or lower than that Yamaha spec? Inquiring minds want to know.

Hey Co425; THAT wasn't what we wanted to hear; DARN. So why I haven't seen a single '06 b*tch with the problem? But thanks for bringing up that issue; that kills my idea right there. But I'm still puzzled why just '07s are mostly afflicted; it had to be a change of some kind. Later.

JC

 

[TruWrecks]

I need the following owners to send me the last 6 of their VIN numbers. If you don't want to, just send me a message stating that so I'll stop asking for it.

Agirl

CALSI

Dwilli

Fjr07

Gary D

Gator1

JeffAshe

mmonroe

rgmax

seabiscuit

Spunkmyer

Superbee

TellurideFJR

Whichsideup

phoneman91

I have a trend forming and I need this information to validate what I'm suspecting.

Thanks.

 

[co425]

Let me clarify. I'm not talking about simply raising the idle. I'm talking about a vacum/voltage that the ECU can handle. Put a mark on the idle adjust knob, go out and put your scooter in the mode, and with the engine running make some very small adjustments. You will know when you have gone too far in one direction. To crank the sob up to 1200 is not the answer. Put a sack over the tack. Disregard the absolute rpm value. You are looking for the symptom to diminish. Making these adjustments with a number 2 phillips makes it much easier. That knob is hard to get at on the 07. Marking the knob is critical. Otherwise you'll get lost.

Hey man, you lost me there. What 'mode'? Could you elaborate on exactly what adjustment you're proposing?

And how about what Mick is saying about your adjustment?

Finally, since we're talking about vacuum, it's prudent to assume the TB synch might have something to do with the problem, no? Remember the FJR has NO base TB for that purpose. ALL TBs are supposed to be synched at 250mmHg. What happens if they're lower or higher?? I'm waiting for my tool to synch mine (will do it along with the oil changes at 600), but will first test #3 with a Craftsman vacuum gauge I have which should be more accurate than stupid sticks, no? Once I have #3 right on the money, will get the others to match. Do we have to go higher or lower than that Yamaha spec? Inquiring minds want to know.

Hey Co425; THAT wasn't what we wanted to hear; DARN. So why I haven't seen a single '06 b*tch with the problem? But thanks for bringing up that issue; that kills my idea right there. But I'm still puzzled why just '07s are mostly afflicted; it had to be a change of some kind. Later.

JC

Im sure there are others I bitched about mine a long time ago. I swear there were a least a few on that list that are 06's.

 

[v65]

Let me clarify. I'm not talking about simply raising the idle. I'm talking about a vacum/voltage that the ECU can handle. Put a mark on the idle adjust knob, go out and put your scooter in the mode, and with the engine running make some very small adjustments. You will know when you have gone too far in one direction. To crank the sob up to 1200 is not the answer. Put a sack over the tack. Disregard the absolute rpm value. You are looking for the symptom to diminish. Making these adjustments with a number 2 phillips makes it much easier. That knob is hard to get at on the 07. Marking the knob is critical. Otherwise you'll get lost.

Hey man, you lost me there. What 'mode'? Could you elaborate on exactly what adjustment you're proposing?

And how about what Mick is saying about your adjustment?

Finally, since we're talking about vacuum, it's prudent to assume the TB synch might have something to do with the problem, no? Remember the FJR has NO base TB for that purpose. ALL TBs are supposed to be synched at 250mmHg. What happens if they're lower or higher?? I'm waiting for my tool to synch mine (will do it along with the oil changes at 600), but will first test #3 with a Craftsman vacuum gauge I have which should be more accurate than stupid sticks, no? Once I have #3 right on the money, will get the others to match. Do we have to go higher or lower than that Yamaha spec? Inquiring minds want to know.

Hey Co425; THAT wasn't what we wanted to hear; DARN. So why I haven't seen a single '06 b*tch with the problem? But thanks for bringing up that issue; that kills my idea right there. But I'm still puzzled why just '07s are mostly afflicted; it had to be a change of some kind. Later.

JC

Im sure there are others I bitched about mine a long time ago. I swear there were a least a few on that list that are 06's.

Like here: clicky? That would be a completely different sort of surging than is being talked about here.

 

[ELP_JC]

That would be a completely different sort of surging than is being talked about here.

Interesting thread. Yes, the main issue was misfiring, but a few posts were about the surging.

And most interesting to me was the mention of a Yamaha tech saying to bump the CO levels to 25 in ALL cylinders. I can't understand for the life of me why all '06 and '07s have the same numbers of: 5,18,18,21. Maybe that's why the idle is a bit erratic on our bikes, no?

Has anybody tried the 25 settings?

Another thing that was heavily commented was to raise the idle. I'll definitely do that. Supposedly it maxes out at 1,200 rpm. I'll do it to at least 1,100, and see how it feels. And can't wait to check the TB synch as well, especially the level on #3. Once I have the TB synch done, the idle speed bumped to 1,100, will play with the CO levels again, including back to stock. Engine might be more responsive to those changes with everything else perfectly adjusted.

Keep the comments coming folks.

JC

 

[co425]

That would be a completely different sort of surging than is being talked about here.

Interesting thread. Yes, the main issue was misfiring, but a few posts were about the surging.

And most interesting to me was the mention of a Yamaha tech saying to bump the CO levels to 25 in ALL cylinders. I can't understand for the life of me why all '06 and '07s have the same numbers of: 5,18,18,21. Maybe that's why the idle is a bit erratic on our bikes, no?

Has anybody tried the 25 settings?

Another thing that was heavily commented was to raise the idle. I'll definitely do that. Supposedly it maxes out at 1,200 rpm. I'll do it to at least 1,100, and see how it feels. And can't wait to check the TB synch as well, especially the level on #3. Once I have the TB synch done, the idle speed bumped to 1,100, will play with the CO levels again, including back to stock. Engine might be more responsive to those changes with everything else perfectly adjusted.

Keep the comments coming folks.

JC

I can crank my idle up to 1500 so thats out the window. Raising the idle when you are at altitude does help though.

 

[Chips]

I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned before. It's all well and good to give your local and regional Yamaha entities the chance to discover the issue and make it right but has an official defect complaint been lodged with NHTSA? Unfortunately, sometimes it does take 'big brother' to step in and resolve safety issues in a timely manner. Here's the link: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

 

[peter_sd]

I have a brand new 07 i have not found out if it has the surge issue. I will try to take it to some mountains to check today.

 

[ELP_JC]

I can crank my idle up to 1500 so thats out the window. Raising the idle when you are at altitude does help though.

Thanks for the heads up; read that the knob only cranked it to 1200. Guess each bike is different. I'll raise to 1100 or so, and play with it more, but doubt it'd do much. When I took off to climb the mountain, I never closed the throttle before it started surging, so having the idle even at 1200 wouldn't have made any difference. But maybe if the idle was at 1200 before taking off, the computer wouldn't be confused to begin with, no? Definitely worth trying. It's a weird problem for sure. Take care.

Chips, to answer your question, yes, the link to NHTSB was posted on post #188, and several folks have done that. But thanks for reminding people again.

Peter, I bet all '07s have this problem, but some haven't found out they have it yet. You're doing the right thing, so if you have it, and bothers you, you can start dealing with it now, both in adjustments to minimize it, and in raising hell with Yamaha and filing a complaint with the NHTSB. And the more you climb the more chances it'd be worse. Keep us posted; hope you have a mild case, which wouldn't worry me at all. Enjoy your new bike; it's a great machine. Oh, and crank the rear suspension to 'hard' buddy, or you'll be dragging pegs right off the bat, like I did. Later.

JC

 

[jackplanet514]

Hello All,

I have a brand new 07 FRJ with ~300 miles on it.

When accelerating from 2,000rpm to around 4,000rpm I have, on occasion, felt a slight "hesitation"

almost like it is "missing". With the bike being so new and my longest ride, thus far, being under 1 hour,

it's hard to digest all the new sounds, feelings, etc...need to spend more time on it.

I live at 4,500 ft, my office is at ~4,600 ft and in 20 minutes I can be @ 8,600 ft.

In the next few days I'll make the 4,600 ft to 8,600 ft 20 minute run and report my findings.

(wow that's about 200 vertical feet per minute)

JackP

P.S. I love the FJR - (~300 miles and counting)

 

[greg97224]

Just filed a complaint with the NHTSB, hope it does some good.

 

[co425]

I can crank my idle up to 1500 so thats out the window. Raising the idle when you are at altitude does help though.

Thanks for the heads up; read that the knob only cranked it to 1200. Guess each bike is different. I'll raise to 1100 or so, and play with it more, but doubt it'd do much. When I took off to climb the mountain, I never closed the throttle before it started surging, so having the idle even at 1200 wouldn't have made any difference. But maybe if the idle was at 1200 before taking off, the computer wouldn't be confused to begin with, no? Definitely worth trying. It's a weird problem for sure. Take care.

Chips, to answer your question, yes, the link to NHTSB was posted on post #188, and several folks have done that. But thanks for reminding people again.

Peter, I bet all '07s have this problem, but some haven't found out they have it yet. You're doing the right thing, so if you have it, and bothers you, you can start dealing with it now, both in adjustments to minimize it, and in raising hell with Yamaha and filing a complaint with the NHTSB. And the more you climb the more chances it'd be worse. Keep us posted; hope you have a mild case, which wouldn't worry me at all. Enjoy your new bike; it's a great machine. Oh, and crank the rear suspension to 'hard' buddy, or you'll be dragging pegs right off the bat, like I did. Later.

JC

Cranking your idle up gets rid of the no power problem at altitude. I.E. when you stop and try to take off again and alls you get is a bucking bronco and no forward motion and no power. Get your idle up and that goes away. It also helps with the surge part it doesnt go completly away but makes a dramatic difference. I usually crank mine up to about 1400 way up in the hills like 5000 + feet I only have to bump it a little bit from about 2000 ft up to about 5000 ft. Everyone try it youll see. I hate having my idle way up there but it is sure a safer ride.

 

[Fencer]

Comming in late on this.

I have an 06 and have not experienced what ya'll are describing. And really glad

I wanted to post I have ridden:

Deal's Gap, NC. Elevation 1756 (the Dragon)

Boone, North Carolina — Elevation: 3,266 FT (EOM 06)

Shady Valley US 421 "the Snake" elevation of 2785

Mt Cheaha, Al elevation 2,407

Russellville, Ar Elevation is 348 feet (SFO 07)

And the highest was Mt Mitchell, NC at 6,684

I live in Alabaster, Al elevation 500 Ft. 12k + on the odo

So If I make a run up Mt Cheaha from home thats a 2,000 ft change crossing the 1,000 ft mark. Hope this helps someone.

Truwrecks

Vin 668. an early model with the 17 mpg hic-up

Could the 06 use the ECU from Gen 1 since no probs reported on gen 1 (and I have an early production bike)?

Sorry if already asked, but I skipped 8 pages.

My idle speed is 850 to 900 approx according to the tach. Everything to deal with running gear is stock. even CO settings

 

[ELP_JC]

Hey guys, an observation. Was cleaning my bike from the mountain trip (had bubble gum all over the darn place, besides the ton of bugs expected), and just for the heck of it inserted my finger into one of the pipes, and crap, BLACK AS HELL. Cleaned both pipes with a towel, and being an FI vehicle, I'd have guessed it had 100K miles. I only have 400.

I live at 4K' of altitude, by the way. Soooooo, shouldn't I LOWERING the CO levels, rather than raising them? No wonder if was surging much worse with +7. It's causing the motor to run rich most of the time, and doesn't seem to need it. BUt then, why the darn hesitation when blipping the throttle? Which, by the way, didn't go away even with +7?

It's obvious this damn thing (ECU) is not compensating for altitude gentlemen. I bet all the surging is due to TOO RICH conditions, not too lean, don't you think?

Please go ahead and check your pipes (wiith your FINGERS gentlemen ) and report your altitude and what you found. It's normal to have a bit of soot due to cold enrichment, but nothing like mine, especially with 400 miles and only a handful of cold starts.

Hey, another idea: How about setting the CO levels like early '06s? Something like -10, xx, xx, xx? What were they again?

Take care guys.

JC

 

[tophog]

.

 

[Silent]

I tend not to stick my fingers in strange holes :blink: But yes, I've noticed a 'small' ammount of soot at the tail end. My '07 however does seem to have gotten alot better with miles. My surging problem hasn't reared it's head in some time. 7k on the clock.