2007 Altitude Surging Problem - Members Wanted

[Fred H.]

Yamaha's first take that this is just "internet hysteria" may have some truth to it.

Yea, that is the same sort of thing Honda tried to claim when GL1800 frames started breaking in half. Owners worked with NHTSA and they didn't see it that way, and forced a safety recall on over 9,000 bikes (which later got increased to close to three times that many and is the largest motorcycle recall in history).

I've been down this road before...

 

[painman]

Seems Yamaha has a definite pattern with their customers. If one has a problem with their bike their answer is that if other bikes, and that other has to be a large enough number to qualify what ever that number is don't have your problem as well, then there's really no problem in existance. I don't care if there's other bikes with the same problem or not they will still try and deny that there is one. The problem is if a bike has a problem, quite beating around the bush and giving us the Yamaha customer slaps in the face and fix the dang problem! I could think of a whole bunch of names right now that Yamaha is deserving of, but I'll let it go at that. Come on Yamaha whaaaaaaaaats up? I don't care what anyone says about the HD company or its bikes, their customer service has Yamaha beat by a long shot. Yamaha is suppose to have the glitch fixed with the software problem on some of the sport bikes but have not heard what that "fix" is. Could it be that simple? Not sure, just like I'm not sure about Yamaha and the way it treats its customers...nuff said....PM. <>< :angry:

 

[v65]

Seems Yamaha has a definite pattern with their customers. If one has a problem with their bike their answer is that if other bikes, and that other has to be a large enough number to qualify what ever that number is don't have your problem as well, then there's really no problem in existance. I don't care if there's other bikes with the same problem or not they will still try and deny that there is one.

I know you guys are pissed, but did you ever stop to wonder about the kinds of complaints that Yamaha sees everyday? You probably have heard the story about the guy that used the CD tray on his computer for a cup holder, apocryphal or not apply that concept to motorcycles. A lot of people that I know can't do much more than open the hood on their car if something goes wrong with it. Well some of these people ride motorcycles, four wheelers, jet skis, etc all of which Yamaha produces, and I can only imagine the **** Yamaha hears in the complaint department from our not so wrench happy breathren.

The FJR owners on average are a technically savvy bunch, good for us. We also have high expectations from our machines given the accolades it has received during its tenure. I believe Yamaha will respond, but to expect it today is a bit unrealistic.

Ahh, but if were a Honda this would never have happened you say. Yamaha is the worst of the bunch, poor customer service, blah, blah, blah... Check my sig, I owned a friggin' Honda. Anybody want to have the tale of how the poster child for quality handled the pitting cams and cracked frames on the v65 recounted? And I am not talking a few bikes that could be counted on your fingers as this thread has turned up, I am talking a very large percentage of cam failures. To make a long story short they left the solution up to some incredibly resourceful owners and their own racing team, and eliminated what was a flagship motorcycle from production. Want to hear about the **** I had to go through with my '93 Civic? Oh yeah, Honda really stepped up to bat on that one.

Maybe I will go buy a BMW next to see how well their legendary reliability stacks up against the myth. I am not holding my breath.

 

[UK-keith]

The latest.

The mechanic phoned me the day before I was due to pick up the bike as he wanted to go through what he had done before I arrived as he was not working on the Saturday.

So jobs done:

1. Checked and reset mixture parameters

2. Injection system checked for fault codes, non apparent.

3. TPS was set at top limit, reset to middle (apparently it is numbered 15,16,17)

4. Idle speed reset (raised a little)

5. Compression checked.

6. Plugs checked.

7. All engine sensors checked.

8. Checked fuel pressure to injectors 3.5 bar, 49psi.

9. Voltage check to injectors.

10. Co settings changed, In Italy I noted 5-,8,8,11 and they now read 8,8,8,8.

All the above with Yamaha picking up the tab.

I started the bike up on collection and it seemed okay. Starting it yesterday gave a little sign of the tick over miss but it was a lot better and I can live with it (only does it on first start-up of the day). The other difference is that the slight hesitation from closed throttle to open has gone, the bike is a lot smoother and seems more much more powerful in fact a lot more powerful. The vibration at over 80mph is still there but that may go in time as the miles increase. The bike also seems to use less fuel as I've now done two rides and I'm getting 130 miles to half a tank so maybe an extra bonus. As for the power loss this is still being investigated. As I don't have any high roads near me I can't test for the altitude issues.

 

[PA1195]

The latest.
The mechanic phoned me the day before I was due to pick up the bike as he wanted to go through what he had done before I arrived as he was not working on the Saturday.

So jobs done:

1. Checked and reset mixture parameters

2. Injection system checked for fault codes, non apparent.

3. TPS was set at top limit, reset to middle (apparently it is numbered 15,16,17)

4. Idle speed reset (raised a little)

5. Compression checked.

6. Plugs checked.

7. All engine sensors checked.

8. Checked fuel pressure to injectors 3.5 bar, 49psi.

9. Voltage check to injectors.

10. Co settings changed, In Italy I noted 5-,8,8,11 and they now read 8,8,8,8.

All the above with Yamaha picking up the tab.

I started the bike up on collection and it seemed okay. Starting it yesterday gave a little sign of the tick over miss but it was a lot better and I can live with it (only does it on first start-up of the day). The other difference is that the slight hesitation from closed throttle to open has gone, the bike is a lot smoother and seems more much more powerful in fact a lot more powerful. The vibration at over 80mph is still there but that may go in time as the miles increase. The bike also seems to use less fuel as I've now done two rides and I'm getting 130 miles to half a tank so maybe an extra bonus. As for the power loss this is still being investigated. As I don't have any high roads near me I can't test for the altitude issues.

Hello...maybe their's something's to the uniform CO settings above : i.e., 10. Co settings changed, In Italy I noted 5-,8,8,11 and they now read 8,8,8,8.

Time to experiment, eh?...why would/should the CO/fuel input be as offset as far as 5,18,18,21 as we've seen for '07?...surely the fuel rail pressure can't drop that much in that short run and the injectors customised to each cylinder so they need less early on...think about it for awhile, and reply if you know why it's as it is with some substantiating info please (header CO probe, etc.) if available.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[fjr-vfr]

What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?

New 07, 3000 miles, live in Cumming, GA, near Atlanta.

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

My bike first surged when riding from Atlanta, GA to Highlands, NC, a change in elevation from about 1000 to 4000 feet. It corrected itself when I stopped for a break and turned the bike off, then restarted.

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

Just returned from a trip to Colorado, it begins to surge about each 2000 feet of increased elevation. Climb unitl it surges, turn it off and on, climb some more and it happens again. It does not surge when descending.

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

Once it begins to surge at a particular elevation, it will continue to do so.

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

Turning it off and on corrects it until you climb some more.

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

Contacted the dealer, they did not think much of it, said call back if it happens again.

 

[TruWrecks]

I'm guessing that we'll probably see more FJR's that have some kind of altitude sickness, if they ever ride any substantial elevation changes in their life time.

Maybe I should start scoping out a new Busa anyway. Over 190HP at the crank. WOOHOOO!

 

[AZrider]

I've been out of town and had to catch up with the latest on this thread. The motorcycle model that Yamaha "fixed" was the '07 FZ1. There was a lot of criticism of the "abrupt" and nasty throttle response of the '06 FZ1 (sound familiar)? The August issue of Motorcyclist has an article about it, testing the new '07 FZ1.

It's amazing to me (I've said this before) that the motorcycle manufacturers can even get the engines to run at all. Kalifornia is the biggest offender of good engineering by "mandating" these ridiculous emmissions standards for motorcycles. The prior year of my BMW (pre-04) surged like a bull in heat so much so that BMW had to make the 04 model a "twin spark" to control the flame front (burning of fuel) in the combustion chamber. The next model they came our with a completely re-designed engine (the Hex head 1200).

IMO there was a re-design of the fuel system to meet "08 CARB (California Air Resources Board for those of you in Cedar Rapids). This is the culprit, not poor engineering from Yamaha. I absolutely love my '07 FJR. I think it's one of the most impressive bikes I've ever ridden. And YES, I have the dreaded "surge". I rode back up the hill (2800' to 4800') from Tucson last Thursday and almost stalled the bike coming to a stop sign. Then I limped through the intersection and the engine almost died. The bike behaved as if it had gotten a tank of bad gas (clogged filter). It also did the "surge and throttle lag then catch" episode riding up the hairpins on the back side of Highway 38 from Mojave to Crestline when I rode it to California.

Think about it for a moment. Most people who buy cars, motorcycles etc don't normally take these items out for an altitude run. I used to live in La Crescenta, CA and one of my favorite rides was up Angeles Crest Highway, same when I lived in the Bay area and rode in the Sierras. But if I lived in Kansas or Chicago where would I ride it to experience an altitude change? I think that's why most of those experiencing this either live in areas where mountains are nearby or have taken trips to mountains. This may explain why there are only 20-30 bikes whose owners have experienced this problem.

So, having said all of that I believe that Yamaha will come up with a "fix" for our bikes as they did for the FZ1. There's something in the CPU or a pressure sensor that's not compensating for an fast altitude increase or decrease. I'm a mechanical engineer so I'll leave the electronics and programming to those folks. Maybe I'm just gullible but I do think that Yamaha reads this site (or they're really out of touch) and they'll come up with a new sensor or fuel map. :blink:

AZ

 

[TruWrecks]

So, having said all of that I believe that Yamaha will come up with a "fix" for our bikes as they did for the FZ1. There's something in the CPU or a pressure sensor that's not compensating for an fast altitude increase or decrease. I'm a mechanical engineer so I'll leave the electronics and programming to those folks. Maybe I'm just gullible but I do think that Yamaha reads this site (or they're really out of touch) and they'll come up with a new sensor or fuel map. :blink:

Yep. They'll come up with a fix, but they'll probably release it for 2008. Since I mostly ride in the mountains my 2007 will be mostly good for spare parts. I've have several surging events in the last week. It can turn a very enjoyable ride into a very frustrating adventure.

I guess I'll be enjoying the mountains in my car for a while. :angry2:

So AZ, do you think Yamaha will offer a fix for the 2006 FZ1?

 

[AZrider]

So, having said all of that I believe that Yamaha will come up with a "fix" for our bikes as they did for the FZ1. There's something in the CPU or a pressure sensor that's not compensating for an fast altitude increase or decrease. I'm a mechanical engineer so I'll leave the electronics and programming to those folks. Maybe I'm just gullible but I do think that Yamaha reads this site (or they're really out of touch) and they'll come up with a new sensor or fuel map. :blink:

Yep. They'll come up with a fix, but they'll probably release it for 2008. Since I mostly ride in the mountains my 2007 will be mostly good for spare parts. I've have several surging events in the last week. It can turn a very enjoyable ride into a very frustrating adventure.

I guess I'll be enjoying the mountains in my car for a while. :angry2:

So AZ, do you think Yamaha will offer a fix for the 2006 FZ1?

I believe that the article stated they were remapping the 06 as well but I could be wrong. I'll go through my stack and see if I can find the article again.

Sorry about your FJ being "spare parts". Outside of the two incidents I have posted on this site the bike runs extremely well with the addition of a PC-III. This has led me to believe that the problem is firmware and not hardware. I believe someone in the original thread stated that the fuel map was falling off the edge. I think that this means the reading of the intake pressure can't compensate for the pressure change unless it gets a WOT while climbing. Again, Honda and other bike companies have had problems meeting the CARB 08 standards and I think this is going to be an ongoing problem, just my opinion.

Maybe I'm just optimistic but I have found the Japenese culture to "at first deny because of embarassment and then to fix it to reconcile their customer". I'll hold to my conviction that Yamaha will fix the problem and I can live with this glitch for the short haul. Just my take on things, you gotta do whatever you have to. <_<

AZ

 

[TruWrecks]

Sorry for getting short folks. Yesterday was a real bear at work.

I do hope Yamaha gets this figured out. I'll have a new Busa by the end of the year, even it this gets figured out, in addition to the FJR. As I said before, it's a great bike when it's running right. It just ticks me off when it doesn't. I can live with it for a commuter bike, but I'm not interested in mountain trips with it until it's fixed. Will I still take it to the mountains? Yes. Will I enjoy it? As much as I can. I won't let the bike kill the desire to ride.

Thanks.

 

[Fred H.]

I won't let the bike kill the desire to ride.

Just be careful not to let the bike kill you altogether.

If the engine stalls or dies at the wrong moment this little annoyance could turn deadly. Yamaha better sit up and pay attention and get this fixed before someone gets hurt.

I was planning a trip to Colorado on the FJR later this month, but now I am having SERIOUS second thoughts about taking it into the mountains.

 

[TruWrecks]

I won't let the bike kill the desire to ride.

Just be careful not to let the bike kill you altogether.

If the engine stalls or dies at the wrong moment this little annoyance could turn deadly. Yamaha better sit up and pay attention and get this fixed before someone gets hurt.

I was planning a trip to Colorado on the FJR later this month, but now I am having SERIOUS second thoughts about taking it into the mountains.

You should take it. The 2006's seem to have a few exceptions, but mostly have no issue with altitude change. If you have a California spec bike you might see a problem, but I doubt it will be enough to spoil the trip.

 

[tophog]

.

 

[CALSI]

I won't let the bike kill the desire to ride.

Just be careful not to let the bike kill you altogether.

If the engine stalls or dies at the wrong moment this little annoyance could turn deadly. Yamaha better sit up and pay attention and get this fixed before someone gets hurt.

I was planning a trip to Colorado on the FJR later this month, but now I am having SERIOUS second thoughts about taking it into the mountains.

You should take it. The 2006's seem to have a few exceptions, but mostly have no issue with altitude change. If you have a California spec bike you might see a problem, but I doubt it will be enough to spoil the trip.

Perhaps the 2006 isn't that big of an issue as the 2007. But, I'm at a loss of what to do. My 2007 really gave me problems on Sunday. During the 600 miles service, mech. adjusted throttle to fix surging problem. Took it for a test run prior to my Yosemite trip up hwy 50 to 88. went up to 7,000 feet no problems. One week later off to Yosemite, Up hwy 50 1500 feet starts to surge, exit to 88 and bike stalls at stop. Had some breakfast off 88 and then continued on 88 toward 89. Surging all the way, trying to keep my RPMS up and bike almost stalls going uphill around a corner. Have to pull over in an unsafe area to turn the bike off and restart. Made it to Mono Lake, spent the night and the next morning riding through Yosemite up to 9,000 feet bike ran great!. I purchased this bike based on the reviews. I'm a fairly new rider and enjoy the bike and the ride. But my life means a little more to me than that. The stalling at the stop didn't bother me. Stalling up hill with a 700lb bike in a blind curve that bothers me. I live in Sacramento and have been blessed to have so many wonderful roads to ride and yet, now each time I go above 1500 feet, my head gets focused on the bike and not the ride. Do I sell? Do I wait?

Karen

 

[DPS]

I won't let the bike kill the desire to ride.

Just be careful not to let the bike kill you altogether.

If the engine stalls or dies at the wrong moment this little annoyance could turn deadly. Yamaha better sit up and pay attention and get this fixed before someone gets hurt.

I was planning a trip to Colorado on the FJR later this month, but now I am having SERIOUS second thoughts about taking it into the mountains.

You should take it. The 2006's seem to have a few exceptions, but mostly have no issue with altitude change. If you have a California spec bike you might see a problem, but I doubt it will be enough to spoil the trip.

Perhaps the 2006 isn't that big of an issue as the 2007. But, I'm at a loss of what to do. My 2007 really gave me problems on Sunday. During the 600 miles service, mech. adjusted throttle to fix surging problem. Took it for a test run prior to my Yosemite trip up hwy 50 to 88. went up to 7,000 feet no problems. One week later off to Yosemite, Up hwy 50 1500 feet starts to surge, exit to 88 and bike stalls at stop. Had some breakfast off 88 and then continued on 88 toward 89. Surging all the way, trying to keep my RPMS up and bike almost stalls going uphill around a corner. Have to pull over in an unsafe area to turn the bike off and restart. Made it to Mono Lake, spent the night and the next morning riding through Yosemite up to 9,000 feet bike ran great!. I purchased this bike based on the reviews. I'm a fairly new rider and enjoy the bike and the ride. But my life means a little more to me than that. The stalling at the stop didn't bother me. Stalling up hill with a 700lb bike in a blind curve that bothers me. I live in Sacramento and have been blessed to have so many wonderful roads to ride and yet, now each time I go above 1500 feet, my head gets focused on the bike and not the ride. Do I sell? Do I wait?

Karen

What you do is file an on-line complaint with the NHTSA (https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallsearch.cfm), it takes maybe two minutes. Then contact Yamaha Customer Relations (800-962-7926) and report your problem. Then, if you really want to push it, take the bike into your dealer and demand it be fixed.

Don't get too worked up over what you see here because it's absolutely meaningless. Only a very small number of us have been bothered enough by this problem to take 5 minutes to actually do something that may help get Yamaha to fix it. They get away with ignoring the problem because fewer than 10 owners have filed formal complaints. Good luck

 

[CALSI]

I won't let the bike kill the desire to ride.

Just be careful not to let the bike kill you altogether.

If the engine stalls or dies at the wrong moment this little annoyance could turn deadly. Yamaha better sit up and pay attention and get this fixed before someone gets hurt.

I was planning a trip to Colorado on the FJR later this month, but now I am having SERIOUS second thoughts about taking it into the mountains.

You should take it. The 2006's seem to have a few exceptions, but mostly have no issue with altitude change. If you have a California spec bike you might see a problem, but I doubt it will be enough to spoil the trip.

Perhaps the 2006 isn't that big of an issue as the 2007. But, I'm at a loss of what to do. My 2007 really gave me problems on Sunday. During the 600 miles service, mech. adjusted throttle to fix surging problem. Took it for a test run prior to my Yosemite trip up hwy 50 to 88. went up to 7,000 feet no problems. One week later off to Yosemite, Up hwy 50 1500 feet starts to surge, exit to 88 and bike stalls at stop. Had some breakfast off 88 and then continued on 88 toward 89. Surging all the way, trying to keep my RPMS up and bike almost stalls going uphill around a corner. Have to pull over in an unsafe area to turn the bike off and restart. Made it to Mono Lake, spent the night and the next morning riding through Yosemite up to 9,000 feet bike ran great!. I purchased this bike based on the reviews. I'm a fairly new rider and enjoy the bike and the ride. But my life means a little more to me than that. The stalling at the stop didn't bother me. Stalling up hill with a 700lb bike in a blind curve that bothers me. I live in Sacramento and have been blessed to have so many wonderful roads to ride and yet, now each time I go above 1500 feet, my head gets focused on the bike and not the ride. Do I sell? Do I wait?

Karen

What you do is file an on-line complaint with the NHTSA (https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallsearch.cfm), it takes maybe two minutes. Then contact Yamaha Customer Relations (800-962-7926) and report your problem. Then, if you really want to push it, take the bike into your dealer and demand it be fixed.

Don't get too worked up over what you see here because it's absolutely meaningless. Only a very small number of us have been bothered enough by this problem to take 5 minutes to actually do something that may help get Yamaha to fix it. They get away with ignoring the problem because fewer than 10 owners have filed formal complaints. Good luck

Thanks for the info. I'll take care of that today. California has a lemon law, so I think I'll look into that as well. I really do love this bike and I think the problem can be fixed. I just hope sooner than later.

Karen

 

[DPS]

Today's update:

The bike's been at the dealer since last Thursday. Dealer said Yamaha's position is there's nothing wrong and wanted me to pay $288 for them to test drive it - I refuse. After repeated calls, Yamaha Cust Serv agrees on Friday AM to authorize the dealer to test my bike in the mountains and that they will deal directly with the dealer on it. Cust Serv calls back an hour later and says the dealer planned on testing the bike that day (Friday) and that I sould hear from her by the end of the day.

I've heard nothing until this AM when the Service Mgr from the dealer calls and tells me he just talked with Yamaha and they authorized him to test my bike???? He reminds me that YAMAHA HAS BEEN UNABLE TO VERIFY THIS PROBLEM. Then he asked me to explain to him what exactly the problem is?

I'll say again, Yamaha more closely resembles an HMO than a Japanese manufacturer that takes pride in quality and customer satisfaction. They also seem to lack basic customer communication skills and ethics.

 

[DPS]

The Serv Mgr just called and said he and a Yamaha rep took my bike and another up in the mountains, He said both bikes exibited "some slight surging" up near the pass but nothing "unusual". They had no problems starting out in first gear and said the "minor" surging went away after shut-off and restartin the bikes. He said they'd drive them up again tomorrow.

Now, does anybody here still think they are going to "duplicate" the problem?

 

[DaveT]

What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?

2006 FJR1300A, 7000 miles, Woodland Park, CO

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

No (riding is normally in the 5k to 12k elevation range -- live at 8600 ft -- have ridden down to 3400 ft; often climb passes with changes in elevation from 9k to 12k in a short period)

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

No

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

No

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

N/A

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

N/A